House of Commons Hansard #48 of the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was ukraine.

Topics

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague from Vancouver Island raises a valid point, and I do believe that provisions related to promoting indigenous culture and language are in fact good. I am always reticent to give power to regulators to determine winners and losers, but I do support, in general, more supports for some of the rural indigenous communities that I represent to get their fair share of funding, which does not generally go to places where I live.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the time to ask a very important question of my friend, but I will add this before I get to my question. If the Liberal government would actually fulfill its promises, we would quit pointing out that it keeps breaking its promises, to use parliamentary language.

Does my friend think that this is such a convoluted bill because the Liberals are trying to sneak things past and regulate some things that they would not want the public to know they are going to do?

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Madam Speaker, my biggest concern with this legislation is that it is lazy. I do not think the government even tried to adapt to the 21st century with this bill. It took outdated and anachronistic terms and definitions that have been in place since 1991 and is trying to apply an outdated and unworkable formula for the reality we live in in the 21st century. As I mentioned in my speech, the consequences of this bill are not just going to be felt tomorrow. They will impact the next generation in 20 years, and we do not know what we are doing fully with the content of this legislation.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I remind the hon. member for Regina—Lewvan that once the Speaker has ruled and has accepted an apology, it is not really wise to try to stoke the fire again.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Yellowhead.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House to speak on Bill C-11, an act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other acts.

I have received many concerns about this bill from many of my constituents. They are worried this bill is against the freedoms their ancestors fought and died for. In their view, Bill C-11, which is also known as the online streaming act, is an overreach that would slowly erode their freedoms and eliminate their free speech.

This bill would give the CRTC enormous powers by putting the commission in charge of regulating streaming services and video sharing sites as well as traditional broadcasters. Will the regulator be prepared to handle sweeping jurisdiction over audiovisual services around the world? Where is the evidence the CRTC has the expertise to address these issues?

Matt Hatfield, campaign director of Open Media, stated, “The online streaming act continues to give the CRTC the power to use sorely outdated 1980s ideas about what 'Canadian' content is, to control what shows up on our online feeds and what doesn't.” By making the CRTC the de facto regulator of the Internet, the Liberal government's strategy poses a serious threat to innovation, competition and freedom of expression.

There are still concerns the law could apply to people using and posting content on social media. It is simply a “just trust us” approach. It is all there in the text of the new legislation, which looks remarkably like the old legislation known as Bill C-10.

While the bill numbers have changed, the purpose of Bill C-11 has not. The bill states its purpose is to add online undertakings for the transmission or retransmission of programs over the Internet as a distinct class of broadcasting undertakings. The reason for that is so the CRTC can determine the proportion of programs to be broadcast that shall be Canadian programs.

Canada is home to many world-class writers, actors, composers, musicians, artists and creators who need rules that do not hold back their ability to be a Canadian and a global success. The Liberals claim there is now an exemption for user-generated content, but this legislation would allow the CRTC to regulate any content that generates revenue directly or indirectly. That means virtually all content would still be regulated, including independent content creators earning a living on social media platforms like YouTube or Spotify.

The term “web giants” is frequently used by the Liberal government when talking about Bill C-11 and broadcast reform. According to Facebook's Ad Library, at the time Bill C-11 was tabled, the Liberal Party of Canada's Facebook page spent $4,233,000 on paid ads since June 25, 2019, and the Prime Minister's Facebook page spent $2.8 million on paid ads. How does the Liberal government justify its attack on so-called web giants in speeches while it keeps putting money into Facebook to promote itself?

If this bill passes, Netflix, Prime, Apple Music or Stitcher accounts would be required to ensure the discoverability of Canadian content. What exactly are the details? Public Works and Government Services Canada's own annual report on Government of Canada advertising activities from 2020 to 2021 shows that the Liberal government spent $11.6 million on advertising on Facebook and Instagram, $3.2 million on Twitter, $2.8 million on Snapchat, $1.5 million on Linkedln, $377,000 on TikTok and $265,000 on Pinterest. Why does the Liberal government say one thing and spend taxpayers' money in another way?

Dr. Michael Geist, Canada research chair in Internet and e-commerce law at the University of Ottawa said, “for all the talk that user generated content is out, the truth is that everything from podcasts to TikTok videos fit neatly into the new exception that gives the CRTC the power to regulate such content as a 'program'.”

There are many issues with Bill C-11 for digital-first creators that are said to be given to the CRTC. It is too broad and could include every piece of content online. Most alarming is that there is still room in the bill for the government to force platforms to put approved Canadian content ahead of independent Canadian content and artificially manipulate the algorithms. This bill only has downsides for digital-first creators. While the traditional media industry gets their funding doubled, the requirement for streamers to pay into the creation of Canadian content could see some services leave Canada.

Digital content creators in Canada have been successful in building platforms such as YouTube, TikTok and others that export Canadian content to the rest of the world, not only bringing revenue from other countries back home to Canada but also hiring local taxpaying Canadian workers. These achievements should be supported, celebrated and encouraged.

Bill C-11 is presented to support the future of the broadcast industry but ignores all the global reach of Canadian digital success stories in favour of an outdated delegated broadcast model. The only thing that Bill C-11 will succeed at is falsely swaying the procedures of social platforms. This could eventually have a negative effect on Canadian content. What it will do is marginalize the people who, through their hard work and dedication, are making an impact by sharing Canadian content worldwide. YouTube's algorithm, which applies across borders, detects whether a video has been watched, ignored or turned off partway through, as well as whether it gets a thumbs-up or it is disliked. This influences how the content is promoted, not just in Canada but beyond its borders.

Bill C-11 subjects streaming companies, such as Netflix, to the same rules as traditional Canadian broadcasters. It would force web firms to offer a set amount of Canadian content and invest heavily in Canada's cultural industries, including film, television and music. Because of our relatively small population, will they make these financial investments to create Canadian content?

The bill will also update the 1991 Broadcasting Act, which predates the Internet revolution that changed the way people watch film and video content and listen to music. The government says the bill would not regulate user-generated material and would give platforms room to decide how they promote Canadian content, yet critics warn this could lead to the regulation of people posting videos on YouTube. In 2020, Oxford Economics calculated that YouTube contributed $923 million to Canada's gross domestic product, including payments from ads alongside YouTube videos and royalty payments to music labels.

I question whether the government should even get involved in determining what constitutes Canadian content. With Bill C-11, it would seem the Liberals don't want to hear from digital-first creators and their thoughts on the destructive impact Bill C-11 will have on them if passed. If passed, Canadians could see fewer services offered, more government regulation of what we can watch or listen to online and a loss of jobs.

Bill C-10 was problematic. Its replacement, Bill C-11, is no better and should be scrapped. We Conservatives support creating a level playing field between large foreign streaming services and Canadian broadcasters, while protecting the individual rights and freedoms of Canadians.

In closing, we Conservatives will continue to bring forward amendments to protect Canadians' free speech and the livelihoods of independent content creators by carefully reviewing every aspect of Bill C-11, and we expect the Liberal government to allow the full study and review it requires.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Madam Speaker, I agree with my colleague on the importance of protecting Canadians' free speech. However, I would like to know whether he understands that the bill does not affect the content that social media users create. The bill targets the platforms and the web giants.

Does my colleague not think it is good for these major companies to promote Canadian content, as the bill would require?

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Madam Speaker, we absolutely need to have some kind of rules and regulations against the web giants because the member is right. They are not doing good Canadian content. Indirectly though, they are basically using algorithms that the CRTC is going to have the power and control over. In other countries it has already been promoted or talked about how anywhere from 80% to 85% of content that was censored or banned actually should never have been. There is where the question lies. It is on the regulations. Are we actually going to be banning Canadian-approved content that should never have been banned by the bill? That is the biggest question that we cannot answer right now.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Madam Speaker, Quebec's cultural sector suffered greatly under the Harper Conservatives, who made massive cuts to cultural spending. At the same time, they inexcusably neglected to regulate the web giants, which took in all of the advertising dollars.

This bill is designed to ensure the discoverability of Quebec- and Canadian-produced content. If my colleague is against that, I would like to know how he would help our cultural and media sectors, because it seems to me that, in the past, the Conservatives did absolutely nothing in this regard.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Madam Speaker, that is quite interesting. I agree that we need to regulate the web giants in order to make sure that they are paying their fair share when it comes to any kind of Canadian content, whether it is news or even people who are promoting their own artistic ways.

One of the problems though is that it is a false sense of security knowing that, if it is Canadian-produced content, automatically it is going to be promoted by the web giants. That is not necessarily the case. Are they going to promote it or are they just going to leave the country? We only have a population of 38 million. There is more population in the state of California than in all of Canada. We have to understand that a lot of these web giants do not have to cater to Canadian content.

The other side that we need to look at is whether it is going to be censored on Canadian content. Because of the CRTC, there is potential that, regardless if it is made in Quebec or not, the CRTC could end up censoring Canadian content simply because it does not agree with whatever type of media form or whatever the message was in that video that was posted.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Madam Speaker, since the beginning of the pandemic, our cultural workers have been losing jobs and income. In fact, in 2020, one in four people working in the cultural sector lost their job, but Netflix revenues increased by over 22% in the same year.

The Conservatives seem to think it is okay for Netflix not to have to pay its fair share. Why?

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Madam Speaker, I think the member misunderstood what I was saying. I have said all along that the web giants need to pay their fair share. They need to make sure that they are paying for what kind of Canadian content they have, whether it is news, types of videos or types of music, even pictures of artists they have promoted. Everyone needs to pay their fair share to make sure, so I think you were misled a little there because I have never said they should not pay.

My concern is about the big corporations. Are they actually going to promote or enhance Canadian content simply because they are told to, or are they just going to ignore Canada and go on to other countries around the world where there are fewer rules and regulations. That is my concern with that.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

The member was not saying that I had been misled, so I just want to remind him that he should address questions and comments to the Chair and to be mindful of the words that are being used as well.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Thornhill.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Speaker, I am honoured to have the opportunity to rise in this place on behalf of the good people of Thornhill to speak to issues within Bill C-11, the online streaming act. It is a new name. As many will remember, in the previous Parliament my colleagues in this place spoke to the issues in a different bill: That was Bill C-10, an act to amend the Broadcasting Act.

While this new bill has a new title, the very same issues exist in this bill as did in the last. It is almost the same bill, with a different name and the same problems. Those problems were an admission of the former heritage minister: He said it was flawed. It was a flawed bill that nevertheless passed the House only for Canadians to be spared its overreach by an election the Liberals deemed the most important in history. That, of course, brought us to almost the same result, with the same bill by a different name. This bill is a near copy of the government's deeply flawed Bill C-10. It fails to address the serious concerns raised by experts and Canadians from coast to coast to coast.

While we will hear members opposite claim that there is now an exemption for user-generated content, which is one of the major concerns the minister admitted was deeply flawed, the new bill would do the same thing as the old bill and would allow the CRTC to regulate any content that generates revenue, directly or indirectly. That means virtually all content would still be regulated, including independent content creators earning a living from platforms such as YouTube, Spotify or even TikTok, which is a favourite of some members in the new government arrangement.

Let me be absolutely clear. Conservatives support creating a level playing field between large, foreign streaming services and Canadian broadcasters while protecting the individual rights and freedoms of all Canadians. That is fundamental. We also know that Canada is home to many world-class writers, actors, composers, musicians, artists and creators. Creators need rules that do not hold back their ability to be Canadian and global successes. With this all being true, there are those who are rightfully warning that digital creators, those we celebrate as Canadian stars, could lose foreign revenue if the government forces digital platforms to promote Canadian content. That means cutting into revenue that Canadian content creators earn, which is the exact opposite of what we should be doing.

The online streaming act would skew the algorithm our online platforms use to match them with viewers' personal preferences. That force-feeding of Canadian content that the government chooses, rather than what might match the viewers' preferences, is no doubt a problem: When they force people to watch something that they may not want to watch, in an effort to promote it, they might be doing the exact opposite. It would suggest that if they force content on viewers, a conclusion could very well be that the forced content is not actually popular, leading of course to potentially less promotion abroad of what was irreparably deemed unpopular by the government or the CRTC.

This is actually disadvantaging our talent, which is arguably one of our greatest exports. Yes, as many in the House know, videos that few people watch are actually harder to find. They do not pop up. They are not promoted. If people do not select the Canadian content the government decides it wants them to watch or that it has offered them, people click on something else, leading to perhaps the dreaded thumbs-down rating. This, of course, knows no boundaries, and it would be deemed less popular here and abroad. Again, the government will say it is not doing that and that it will not regulate YouTube users and TikTok users who post their content, but that is not what the bill says.

The bill would give the authority to the CRTC to regulate any content. Even if people were to take this at face value and believe it, why would the government not make that scope in the bill more clear? Why would it not make it more prescriptive? If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, it is probably a duck. Hiding behind the complexity of legislation, as the minister has, should be a concern to every single Canadian who generates content that this bill would regulate and every single Canadian who watches it.

It should be of great concern that the CRTC is being tasked with administering the act. It is a body already stretched to its limits in this country. A fair question to anyone supporting this bill would simply be that if the CRTC lacks the capacity to carry out its current mandate effectively, how can it be expected to take on the entire, infinite Internet? Knowing all that, the CRTC would be handed the power to develop the rules and regulations. It could make those up as it goes along, because guess what? The bill does not stipulate it.

This act would bestow on the CRTC the ability to determine its own jurisdiction without constraints, again despite it having no capacity to even do it.

Let us put that very serious issue aside for a moment and pretend the government bill does not do what it says it is going to do.

When the government sticks its nose in where it does not belong, we find ourselves up against a difficult reality that has become a recurring theme for the opposition.

If this bill is passed, Canada will become the first democratic country to enforce its Internet regulation law. Canada will also become the first country to regulate online content created by people living in Canada.

We will be in good company with dictators from countries like Iran, Turkey and North Korea when it comes to protecting personal freedoms, because the government is not comfortable with a vast, open communication space that exists outside its control.

That is control the government could potentially exert over the tens of thousands of digital first creators who have found a way to earn a living and export their talent globally. We should be celebrating these accomplishments. We should be encouraging their spirit of entrepreneurship. We absolutely should not be punishing them with the demands of this legislation under the guise of creating a “level playing field”, as the government says, “where web giants will pay their fair share”. What we would actually get is like the disappointment we get in a cereal box: We would get an Internet czar, which sounds alarming because it is alarming.

It is important to remind members of the House that the Broadcasting Act was not meant to regulate the Internet. Many will say that this modernization of an act that was put in place for radio and TV will somehow boost the Canadian arts and culture sector. To that, I say I have a bridge to sell them. It is not going to happen. That is not how it works. More regulation has never, and will never, incentivize more artistic creation, let alone more wealth and success for creators, because one thing is for certain. When the government-instructed bureaucrats pick winners and losers, there are no winners in this realm or in any other in the history of government. Having the government pick winners, based on how Canadian content is viewed or how it decides what we will watch, is an imposition on our freedom to choose what we actually want to watch. It also does not lead to more Canadian content.

Bill C-11 is a solution looking for a problem that does not exist. I hope members of the House will carefully review every aspect of this bill because, as a member before me said, it is going to have grave consequences for generations to come. There is a lack of clarity in this bill on what it is going to do. Instead of promoting our Canadian creators, it actually punishes them.

I hope that members of the House will think of their rights and freedoms on the Internet before they agree with the current government's illogical pursuit to control what we see online.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Madam Speaker, I listen to the debate today as somebody who went through the first Canadian content regulations. I was on the air, and if I play Anne Murray's Snowbird one more time I think my head will explode. That was the point. What we did on the radio or on standard television was present a very linear stream of programming, so we would get this one and then this one, and the only choice people had was to watch or turn to another channel.

This is where I want the member to kind of reflect. If I go on to Netflix, there is an endless number of tiles that I can select from. Some of them should be Canadian, because I am a Canadian and I deserve to at least have the opportunity to know that my stories are being told. To create content and not let people know it is there is like winking at somebody in the dark. I would ask my hon. colleague this. Can we not just say that there is a real benefit to at least letting people know this material exists while they have an infinite—

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I do have to allow for other questions. The hon. member for Thornhill.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Speaker, the member opposite would know that, if he looked at all of the tiles on Netflix, he would see Canadian content.

Canadian content is important. The problem is that the bill does not even stipulate what Canadian content is. How does the member opposite regulate something if he cannot define it?

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Madam Speaker, for me, this debate is about equity. Right now, traditional broadcasters are regulated. They have to contribute to Quebec and Canadian culture. All this bill does is extend regulatory enforcement to foreign and online platforms.

I do not understand what my colleague wants. Is she saying we should deregulate traditional broadcasters? What does she see as the solution?

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Speaker, what I am saying is that the government should never regulate what we see online. It should never pick winners and losers, and it certainly should not have the CRTC deciding the ad hoc rules of what Canadians can see online and when. That should be one's choice.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Madam Speaker, I thank my friend for Thornhill. I have enjoyed our time together on the transport committee, and I listened carefully to her speech.

Near the beginning, she indicated that she supports the premise that we should be requiring these platforms and these broadcasters to reinvest in Canadian content creation, that we should level the playing field and that this is a worthy goal.

Later, she said she does not believe that regulation can actually result in better or more Canadian content creation, yet we have had regulations in the country that for decades have required organizations and companies to pay into a fund that reinvests in Canadian content creation.

Does she feel that those decades of regulatory policy have been all for naught and that we should have avoided that path altogether as a country?

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON

Madam Speaker, we have heard a lot from the NDP talking about making web giants pay their fair share. This is, again, a party that has spent almost $2.5 million on platforms such as Facebook. To the hon. member's question, I do not see how he can stand in the House and ask that question. I would say to the hon. member that we cannot regulate ourselves to success. That is not going to create more, or better or successful, Canadian content. We have never done that. We could never do that.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

March 29th, 2022 / 5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Madam Speaker, I am honoured to rise today to take part in this important debate.

Thinking back in history about failed regimes, what did they do? In the dying days of these governments, they censor the public. They take over broadcasters. They print money. They put down protesters and stifle free speech. How that relates to this government, to this failed regime, is that I believe Bill C-11 follows in those dangerous footsteps that we have seen around the world in different parts of history when failed regimes overreach.

We even heard this after the preceding speech by the member for Thornhill. The question was about going onto Netflix and not finding Canadian content. The problem is that with VPN and different technologies, we can pretend that we are anywhere in the world, so we are trying to regulate something that cannot be regulated. Unfortunately, that is going to make an uneven playing field for some.

We all want Canadian content. We all want Canadian content to be produced to tell our stories. It has been pointed out that it is not the creators but the portal or the streaming services, but the bill unfortunately is an analogy with different parts in history when governments burned books or banned books to be sold. Authors could write all the books they wanted, but only government-approved books were sold, and in government-run stores.

This is the problem we have with the government. It is overreach. The Liberals think they can regulate everything in our lives. Many Canadians have reached out to me to say that they disagree with this approach. They disagree that we need the censorship that comes with Bill C-11. They disagree with the CRTC not reporting to Parliament, to all of us, but to the Prime Minister.

It is troubling that an order in council will clarify the instructions on the bill. That is quite frightening. Also, on the backdrop of what the last week and a bit have been, we have had the NDP prop up the government and then literally almost cross the floor to support the Liberals in their endeavours. With the floor-crossing NDP supporting the Liberals, the bill will pass.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:35 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

On a point of order, the hon. member for Timmins—James Bay.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Speaker, that is a personal attack. I did not cross the floor. I was sitting here all along. They put me—

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:35 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

It is not a point of order but a point of debate, and the hon. member has seven minutes and 20 seconds left.

The hon. member for Saskatoon—University.

Online Streaming ActGovernment Orders

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK

Madam Speaker, it is good to hear the NDP members defending themselves on crossing the floor. I think they are going to have to defend themselves a lot, because I believe history will show the follies in the move they have made to prop up the government.

There were also problems with the last time this bill was before the House as Bill C-10. Now it is Bill C-11, but Bill C-10 was at committee. At that time, the NDP did not cross the floor, but the bill never became law, thankfully.