Debates of May 19th, 2022

Public Works and Government Services—Main Estimates, 2022-23

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Madam Chair, our government is committed to renewing and strengthening its economic relationship with indigenous entrepreneurs and communities by providing increased economic opportunities to first nations, Inuit and Métis businesses through the federal procurement process.

Our government announced the implementation of a mandatory requirement for federal departments and agencies to ensure that a minimum of 5% of the total value of contracts is held by indigenous businesses. This requirement includes public reporting and will be phased in over three years, beginning this year, with a number of federal departments that are ready to immediately begin this work, with full implementation expected by 2024.

From March 2020 to March 2022, Public Services and Procurement Canada, as a common service provider, has awarded $1.3 billion through 1,744 contracts to indigenous suppliers.

Can the minister tell the House more about the efforts to achieve this mandatory target, and what she is hearing from indigenous business leaders and partners?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Madam Chair, this is a really important initiative, and what I will say is that we are making great headway in this regard. With regard to indigenous businesses, we want to encourage them. We want to provide them with the tools and the support that they need. They are very pleased that we are collaborating. They are very pleased that we have commenced this initiative, and we look forward to continuing to work with indigenous businesses. What I would point out is that is the floor, not the ceiling.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Madam Chair, I thank the Minister of Public Services and Procurement for being here this evening. We are happy to have her.

Madam Chair, how many full-time public servants work at Public Services and Procurement Canada?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Minister of Public Services and Procurement]

Madam Chair, the response is 17,500.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Madam Chair, how many of those public servants work specifically on procurement?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Madam Chair, the procurement service workers are doing an absolutely fantastic job. I want to thank them. The full-time equivalent of procurement service workers is 2,193.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Madam Chair, how does the minister explain the challenges in tracking expenditures in areas such as air defence and the national shipbuilding strategy if there are so many procurement specialists?

We often hear that it is difficult to do the tracking and that expenses are on the rise.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Madam Chair, I am proud of the work that our procurement specialists are doing. We have now navigated over two years through a pandemic that has descended upon this country and the world, but I am speaking about Canada because that is where I am the procurement minister. The work that procurement has done has been second to none. I think we need to take time to give them thanks and credit and all those procurement officials—

[The Assistant Deputy Chair]

The hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Madam Chair, I am not by any means questioning the work of officials. I am simply asking why it is hard to get the figures.

Nevertheless, earlier, you were saying that spending is tracked very meticulously, you mentioned it just now.

Why is it always so hard, either for a committee or for the Parliamentary Budget Officer, to get detailed expense reports and get clear answers to simple questions, such as explanations for cost overruns?

[The Assistant Deputy Chair]

Before giving the floor to the minister, I would remind the hon. member to ask her questions through the Chair.

The hon. Minister of Public Services and Procurement.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Madam Chair, with all due respect, I would disagree with the member's premise of the question. We always want to be accountable with the numbers and we will provide those numbers. If there are specific instances where the member is looking for certain numbers, then I would ask that she ask us—

[The Assistant Deputy Chair, Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

I have to interrupt the minister. There does not seem to be any interpretation.

Is it working now? Can you hear me now in French? I can now hear the interpreters.

Apologies to the hon. minister.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Madam Chair, with all due respect, I would disagree with the premise of the member's question. We always want to be open and transparent with numbers. If there are certain situations where the member has not been able to get certain numbers, then I would encourage her to reach out to my team and we will provide the numbers that we are able to provide to her.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Madam Chair, just about every witness we heard from in committee has told us the same thing: The military procurement process is slow, inefficient and rife with political interference.

Does the minister have a plan to fix this fiasco? Some witnesses think that a second department focused solely on military procurement may be needed.

Does the minister believe that this would be useful and effective?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Madam Chair, I would repeat what I said earlier, which is that I believe that we are strong in defence procurement. In fact, members can look at what we are involved in right now: The most significant investment in the air force in 30 years is the purchase of 88 fighter jets.

The first five ships have been delivered under the national shipbuilding strategy. Two-thirds of the projects under Strong, Secure and Engaged have been either implemented, completed or are near completion. That is a pretty strong record.

In terms of defence procurement, I think we have a strong record.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Madam Chair, it would appear that businesses do not entirely agree with what the minister. That is their right.

Many in government and in the private sector have pointed out how difficult it is to do business with the government, particularly when it comes to francophone SMEs.

In the past year, what proportion of government tenders and contracts were written in both official languages?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Madam Chair, if anyone wants translation into French, then we would provide that. If the member is asking about specific contracts that currently exist in two different languages, I am happy to have my team follow up with her and provide her with those exact details. I do not have that number off the top of my head.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Madam Chair, we have talked about Cisco and sole-source procurement several times at the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, and I have asked the minister about it.

What concrete action have the department and the minister taken to ensure that the government receives the best available prices for computer equipment?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Madam Chair, I wish to begin by assuring the member that whenever we are procuring, we always want to ensure that we are getting the best product for the best price. We have rigorous procurement measures that take place, and we are going to continue with that. We recognize that these are taxpayers' dollars. In every procurement project, it is important that we are getting value, and that is the process that we will continue to undertake for every procurement.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Madam Chair, I would like the minister to tell me what measures are in place to ensure the best price from Cisco when only that company can bid.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Madam Chair, it is important to point out here that there are specific requirements with respect to each project. Whenever possible, we have competition because we know this is the best value we are going to get, and we can look at the 88 fighter jets, but there are times when it is necessary to match up the operability—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Madam Chair, there is not actually any competition when there is only Cisco and resellers of Cisco products. Competition would involve companies that sell something other than Cisco products.

How many contracts have been offered to companies that sell something other than Cisco products?

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Madam Chair, as I said, we always want a competitive process. If in fact there is an instance where it has to be a Cisco product because of matching up in terms of operability, then we are limited in that regard, but we are transitioning away from that. That is the approach we are taking in the future, because we know that at the end of the day we want as much competition as possible.