Debates of June 1st, 2022

Public Safety and National Security

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, I agree with my colleague. Leaders cannot go it alone. What we need is multilateral action, which involves several countries working together at the same time. Leaders set an example, take the lead and inspire others to join in multilateral action.

Based on what we are seeing this evening, I think Canada can be a leader and inspire others to join in. I only wish it had reacted the same way to the Uighur genocide that the current Chinese regime is committing.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Madam Speaker, I would like to both thank and congratulate the member for Lac-Saint-Jean once again for the quality of his speech. He talked a lot about leadership. I would be remiss if I did not point out the leadership he showed some time ago in pushing for an airlift to bring refugees here. I say that with all the pride and honesty that comes with being a member of Parliament. We are all very pleased that three planes have arrived. As the saying goes, this is just the tip of the iceberg. We hope it is just the beginning.

The member highlighted the fact that Canada has distinguished itself over the years by always being on the right side of history and in fact by leading the charge on the right side. One example that comes to mind is Mr. Pearson and the Right Hon. Brian Mulroney's efforts to fight apartheid, even though it upset our main allies, namely England and the U.S.

The member spoke about leadership. What urgent action does he think the government should be taking to help the Ukrainian people?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, I have a great deal of respect for my colleague, and I sincerely thank him for his question. I am sad that he is not a member of my party, but perhaps that will happen one day.

It is an important question. What should the government do for Ukraine? We must be realistic. Canada is not a military power.

What can we do to get things moving, play a role and influence what is currently going on in Ukraine? First, we must help the refugees. Canada is a welcoming country, so we must make every effort to help them. At present, 200,000 Ukrainian refugees have applied for authorization to come to Canada. To date, about 100,000 applications have been approved, but the people are not arriving. Ukrainian mothers and their children have been authorized to come here. Unfortunately, these women have been living on their meagre savings for the past three months. They cannot afford the airfare. It is one thing to authorize people to come, but now they must get here one way or another. That is one thing we could do.

In addition, through diplomacy, Canada should obviously gather as many allies as possible to ensure that Sweden and Finland join the NATO alliance.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Madam Speaker, I know my colleague cares deeply about people around the world. We have worked together on many files looking at human rights around the world. In fact, today we were on a panel looking at the atrocious war crimes that are being committed in Ethiopia in the Tigray region, and I am delighted to hear at least the words of the government, if not the actions, in support of Ukraine.

However, I wonder if the member could comment on how he feels the government has sent a message, and what that message is, to other places around the world where dire humanitarian crises are happening and the government has not responded at all.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Chair, that is such an important question. Why was our response to the present conflict in Ukraine so rapid compared to other natural disasters and armed conflicts around the world? Right now, people are experiencing actual genocide. As a signatory to the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, there are two things we must do when we know that genocide is occurring. We must either prevent it or punish those perpetrating it. What is happening right now in the Tigray is genocide. What is happening with the Uighurs is genocide.

Many of us here voted in favour of the motion moved by my colleague from Edmonton Strathcona on the genocide in Ukraine, but when I wanted to move a motion barely three weeks ago calling on the House to unanimously condemn the Uighur genocide, the party in power rejected my motion. I am still upset about that.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time this evening with the member for North Island—Powell River.

I want to begin my remarks tonight by stating unequivocally that the New Democratic Party supports Sweden and Finland in their bid for membership in NATO, and that New Democrats call on all NATO members to approve the application as quickly as possible to address the urgent situation that is facing both countries, including the very real threats made against both Sweden and Finland by the Russian Federation.

New Democrats strongly believe in the legal right of self-determination and the right that all people must have to decide their own destiny within the international order. Self-determination is a core principle of international law. It is enshrined in the United Nations charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

All countries must have the opportunity and independence to determine their own fates, and all democratically elected governments must decide what is in the best interests of their citizens. Clearly, the people of Sweden and Finland have decided that, as a result of the illegal war of aggression by the Russian Federation in Ukraine and the very clear indication that Vladimir Putin has no respect for national sovereignty, for multilateral institutions or for international law and order, the people of Sweden and Finland must do what they can to prevent their countries from being threatened further by the Russian Federation. Everyone in the House agrees that Sweden and Finland should be allowed to join NATO and that we should do what we can as parliamentarians to expedite that accession.

I want to take some time today because, of course, since we all agree on this basic principle, we really have an obligation to look at how we got to this position. The illegal invasion and criminal war of aggression that Vladimir Putin and the Russian Federation have inflicted upon the people of Ukraine since 2014, with obvious massive escalation of aggression since February 24 of this year, is why we are here today. Prior to the further invasion of Ukraine, support for NATO membership was around 20% to 30% in Sweden and Finland. Now, 76% of Finnish people support joining NATO. Very simply, Vladimir Putin and the aggression of the Russian Federation are responsible for escalating tensions in the region and leading Sweden and Finland to seek NATO membership.

The war in Ukraine is horrifying and will have massive implications for all countries. The reports of Putin's war crimes against Ukrainians are appalling. We are hearing stories of children's toys being mined. We are hearing stories of such gross and horrific crimes against women and children that it makes my skin crawl.

I welcomed yesterday's announcement by the government to inflict further sanctions on the Russian Federation. However, currently, we do not know how these decisions are being made, if these sanctions are being enforced or why they are taking so long to implement. I asked an Order Paper question recently on this exact issue, and the government response from the parliamentary secretary on foreign affairs was to say that the government could not share any information because it could not confirm that the information would be correct. As a parliamentarian, I cannot get the information I need to do my job because the current government cannot guarantee that it will be correct, so it will not give us any information.

While properties, business assets and yachts are being seized by other countries, we have almost no information about what is happening in Canada. We know that the sanctions have been too slow and we know that they have been implemented too late. For example, why was Igor Makarov permitted to move $120 million out of Canada before he was added to the sanctions list? That $120 million was money that should have gone back to Ukraine to help build Ukraine. That was $120 million that should have gone to Ukrainians in Canada to help them settle in this country.

We need a full review of Canada's sanctions regime. The last time the Parliament of Canada reviewed Canada's sanctions regime was five years ago, when the foreign affairs committee found it lacking in transparency and accountability. Why is it that Canadians do not know how sanctions are decided, how they are enforced or why the enforcement of the sanctions is so poor?

I will be calling on the foreign affairs committee to review the government's implementation of the recommendations in the 2017 report on Canadian sanctions and assess the need for changes since then. We need this review. The government must do better when it comes to sanctions.

I want to make another point about NATO. I want to reiterate that I support Sweden and Finland's bid to join NATO, but I want to talk about the bigger picture of how the global community must work together and how we must increase support for our multilateral institutions. Multilateralism is the most effective way we have to ensure peaceful global order.

Ultimately, what is NATO? NATO is a defence and security alliance, and its purpose is to guarantee the freedom and security of its members through political and military means. As we have seen since February 24, there is a role for NATO to play. In fact, as Canada's Arctic becomes more accessible, we need greater protection in the north and we need to be a part of NATO, but we need to do more than invest in just security. We need to invest in peace.

I have learned a great deal from my mentor, the honourable Douglas Roche. If he has taught me anything, it is that war is a failure to build peace in this world. War is never a solution that we can depend on. We always have to be pushing for peace. I have spoken to Doug about the need to develop a declaration on the right to peace.

In 2012, the UN Human Rights Council began a study to draft a human right to peace. This is vital work that we need to be doing. As a species, we should be promoting peace as a basic human right, and I will continue to work with any member in the House who is interested in working towards that goal.

What we need right now is dialogue, diplomacy and pluralism that puts the common global good at the forefront. Climate change, global health pandemics, food shortages and nuclear war are global challenges that will require global solutions. We need multilateralism to solve the biggest challenges facing humanity right now.

We need United Nations reform. I know many people are working very hard on United Nations reform. We need to make sure the UN has a strong set of institutions that can protect all people and all countries.

We need to look at the Security Council. The Russian Federation invaded Ukraine while they were chairing a Security Council meeting. What is the obligation of the United Nations General Assembly when the Security Council is no longer able to meet its mandate? What is the obligation of all the other countries in the world to stand up and say that it is not okay?

We need to work to reform our multilateral institutions. We need to work to make sure that the investment we put into foreign security and into defence is echoed in our investment into diplomacy, our investment into peace and our investment into making sure that the world is fair and equitable for all people, regardless of which country they come from.

We want to see stronger support from Canada for the International Criminal Court. We were glad to see Canada's decision to refer the situation in Ukraine to the International Criminal Court. We support the government's decision to send resources. I was proud to see the support going to prove that what is happening in Ukraine is genocide. Every member in the House supported my resolution on that.

However, I have to say that Canada has a long history of picking and choosing when human rights matter, and a long history of deciding when the International Criminal Court is applicable and when it is not. I am shocked that Canada does not support the investigation into Israel and Palestine and what is happening there. This would look at crimes being committed by Israelis and Palestinians.

Canada has to start playing a better role by being universal in its approach to human rights. This is a great place to start.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, when I think of Canadians, there is no doubt in my mind that the concept of world peace is a wonderful thing. There is no doubt that anything we can do to move in that direction is a positive thing.

When we think of the NATO alliance and its important role, which has really been amplified because of what is taking place in Europe today, one of the greatest demands that came from Ukraine was getting lethal weapons. Over the years, Canada has been challenged to say that we need to increase our contribution to things such as lethal weapons by, it was suggested, 2%. I am very much interested in the member's thoughts regarding Canada's potential leadership role in investing that 2% of GDP.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Madam Speaker, I have many thoughts and I will not have time to get to them all, but here are a couple of them.

Let us tie our defence spending to our humanitarian spending. As soon as the government is ready to spend 2% on humanitarian diplomacy and overseas development, I would be happy to see that spending go into our defence budget. The other thing we could do, at the very low bar, is send a delegation to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons in Vienna, which is happening in June and which we still have not heard from the government on. There is so much we could be doing on peace.

Trying to get a gotcha on the NDP on the 2% is a little gross, to be honest.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for her excellent speech.

I want to correct the record. I think I said that Ukraine had a $35‑billion deficit, but what I should have said was that 35% of the country's economy is shut down, resulting in $5 billion in losses every month.

My colleague spoke about sanctions. Many people are calling for the money that was seized from oligarchs to be used to help Ukraine. Canada announced that it had put several oligarchs on the list, but no one knows where the money is. The RCMP claimed not to know whether it was supposed to follow up and said it was relying on the banks to check whether the money had been frozen.

Did someone drop the ball here, costing us a golden opportunity to help Ukraine?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Madam Speaker, I would say that we have not lost track of where those sanctions have gone. We have never been told. Parliamentarians have never been given that information, and the opaqueness of our sanctions regime has been called out many times. The government is not interested in sharing it.

I have an interesting fact. If we need to know what was shipped to Canada from Russia, we can check with Russia, but we cannot check with Canada. We do not have those records available. The U.S. does, the U.K. does and Russia does, but Canada does not.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Madam Speaker, Canada is part of a coalition. We are in NATO, we support each other and we have a commitment to live up to. I am sure my hon. colleague understands what it is like to be committed in a coalition as her party supports the minority Liberal government.

If we do not support our NATO partners and if the NDP does not support the Liberals, what does she think would happen to it all?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Madam Speaker, I have to think about that question, but I will say one thing. Today in the House there was a coalition of parties that voted against supporting people trying to get access to a safe drug supply. The Liberals voted with the Conservatives to stop life-saving legislation from going forward. I do not really know if he understands what “coalition” means, if he understands the coalition that he is part of or if he is proud of that coalition. If there is anything else he wants to say about coalitions, it is up to him.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Madam Speaker, I want to recognize the amazing work of the member for Edmonton Strathcona this evening. I really appreciate her thoughts on this issue and certainly hope that all people in this House listen to what she has to say.

I want to start this speech today by talking a bit about the fact that while growing up, I lived part of the time at my grandfather's house. He owned a large piece of property, and in the whole community, which spanned many acres, there were 25 people who lived there.

The reason that is so important to me is that as a young person I would go and visit Mary and Dobbie. They lived about a 45-minute walk from my house, and I would visit them regularly and help them out with things. As I got older, I started to understand that their accents were from where they grew up, which was in Europe, and the reason they were there was that during the Second World War, they fled Nazi Germany. I remember Mary telling me stories about her family being taken when she was young and how she had to hide in a suitcase to get through parts of Europe to eventually get to safety in Canada. She talked about the reason she lived in such a small house on such a big piece of land. It was because she always wanted an exit so that if anybody came for her again, she would be able to hide and get away, and there was enough space for her to do that.

I remember as a young person really being impacted by what that meant, understanding that for this person and her husband every day was a precious gift, yet every day they were slightly afraid of what they had lived through and afraid that it could happen again. I think of every Remembrance Day in my riding, when I go to multiple communities to stand and be with them to remember the history of the Second World War and understand how important it is that we create as much peace as we can.

I remember Mary saying to me one time, “I no longer believe in a god. I cannot believe in a god when I saw what happened in my community, when I saw people that I thought were friends tell on our family and get some of those people taken away.” She said, “Even though I do not believe in God, I pray for peace unceasingly.” Often when I think of her legacy for me personally, I think about peace unceasingly and I am really grateful for that lesson.

I too am one of the members who spent time in Lithuania just a few days ago with the Canadian NATO Parliamentary Association. I think it is really important that as we sit in those rooms and listen to the interesting debates, discussions, education and papers that are presented to us, we always remember that even in those places where we are talking about security and how to stay safe, we also remember peace. I think about that space and about how many of us listened to ministers who were being televised from Ukraine, their images projected on the wall, and I think every single one of us who was there will never forget how exhausted those faces looked—how determined they looked, and how exhausted they looked.

I think of the deputy prime minister for European and Euro-Atlantic integration of Ukraine and government coordination of humanitarian aid, who spoke very passionately about the huge violations that were happening across her country and how she had to wake up every day, when she could actually sleep, and deal with those issues again and again and try to find solutions, in a situation in which I think most of us cannot even imagine trying to think of solutions, knowing that her communities and people were not safe and that children and women in particular were being attacked.

I also think of the work that was done and presented to us on NATO's approach to women, peace and security. I think we need to keep talking about these things. We know that when there is an investment in women in all of these situations, whether it is an act of warfare or international aid while people are rebuilding, if women are not lifted up, given supports and given power, things do not get better. In fact, they get worse. We heard very clearly that women play such a large part in communities, in leadership and in resources, and that when there are limited resources, they are better at negotiating so that everybody can be okay. I think about that a lot.

I also think of a presentation from Konstantin von Eggert, who is an independent journalist recognized in many countries for the profound work he has done, especially in relation to Russia. He talked about how one of the biggest challenges that we have in building up understanding and knowledge of Russia is people's indifference, because their focus is so much on survival and getting through day to day that they really do not have the energy to even think about what is happening outside of those borders. They are dealing with a lot of propaganda that is very concerning, and we need to fight that misinformation, which is hard to do in trying to educate people behind Putin's walls.

He also talked a lot about continuing to expand sanctions and that this needs to keep happening. We have to build that unease. He talked so much about how much power Putin has within his own country and with the oligarchs, and how hard it is to build up that pressure. I think it is incredibly important that we remember that our process in terms of sanctions is still very weak in this country. We need to do much, much better so that we can have better accountability and of course make sure that resources that are coming in are going back home to Ukraine, which desperately needs them right now.

As we look at all of these things, one of the deep honours that I had on the trip was having a meal with some Ukrainian members of parliament, sitting down with them and again seeing how exhausted those faces are and understanding that not only are they working within their own country day by day, but when they leave their country, they are on a road show where they are talking to people, going from country to country and trying to get engagement so that they can continue to fight this fight.

One of the things that I was happy to tell them was that in my riding, people are gathering together. They are working so hard. I spoke specifically of Slav and Stefan in my riding, who are getting resources and sending them off to Ukraine every day. They are working so hard. I want to recognize that. I know that across Canada, so many people are doing that work.

One of the things we have to also be talking about is the rebuilding process. We do not know how long this is going to last. We need to do everything we can during this time, but the other part is, how do we rebuild?

I remember that the First Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Economic Development and Trade of Ukraine came and presented to us and talked about reconstruction and development and how they are already working on that plan, recognizing the horrendous war crimes that have happened in their country, where they have seen many hospitals and schools and infrastructure that is core to communities completely obliterated, destroyed, and they have to figure out what they are going to do in the interim and later on as they rebuild.

I think one of the things that is so clear is how scary it is to think about rebuilding during so much uncertainty. It is, again, one of the things that we all need to think about in the House as we have these discussions.

I am very pleased to support having Finland and Sweden come into the fold of NATO. I think we are always better together. I think it is always important that as we come together in these ways, we hold one another accountable, as we should in all of the countries, to make sure that our human rights standards continue to be strong, that we are respectful, that we understand the relationships and how they will impact us.

I met with members of parliament from both countries, and we had conversations about the concerns that they are seeing and the things they want to do moving forward. We can do it better together, so I look forward to that discussion.

I want to close by saying that as we do these things, we must remember humanitarian aid. We must remember that stabilizing communities as they go through conflict and as they are trying to recover from conflict must be a priority. If those resources are not there, then we will all continue to deal with this, and we are, across this planet, so let us make sure that every system we use always focuses on peace.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Madam Speaker, the hon. member and I were on the same trip, as were the members for St. John's East and Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, and I thought that I would like her to comment on the fact that the people of Lithuania raised $5 million in the course of three days to buy a drone.

What does that mean in terms of their response to this brutal invasion by Vladimir Putin into Ukraine?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for his question and of course really appreciated our time together. In terms of the NATO parliamentary association, this is an opportunity for members from all parties. We may have internal disagreements, but in this place we represent Canada, and it is important for us to work together.

I was really moved in Lithuania in seeing how many people had flags on their cars and how many stores had signs up and were taking money to donate even while we were there. The commitment is profound. We see the reality that these communities and countries are all so close together, and they know that a threat to one is a threat to all.

We have to remember that we may be far away on the other side of the ocean, but we are all connected. When we look at the realities that are happening in Ukraine, we must all stand together. I believe Putin needs to see that. Putin needs to see us all coming together in solidarity so that all countries understand that we will not put up with that kind of violence.

[Marc Dalton, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, CPC]

Madam Speaker, the member just made reference to the threat that Lithuania and other countries bordering Russia feel. I wonder what her thoughts might be on the fact that Canada borders Russia, and that with regard to Arctic sovereignty, we have almost no naval capacity or icebreakers to defend our north, as well as the fact that we are not meeting our NATO obligations of 2%. I wonder if she would make some comments on those points.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Madam Speaker, I agree that we need to continue to do the work in the Arctic. That is incredibly important.

I also want to say that I represent 19 Wing Comox. I know how hard those folks are working every day in my area to protect not only our region but the whole country. I also know that they are facing the reality of trying to repair planes when they cannot necessarily do so in a very safe way. It concerns me greatly. The NDP firmly believes that when we ask people to do a job, we must give them the equipment that they need to do it. Safety has to be paramount.

I will also go back to the idea that we need to see investment in humanitarian aid and support increased. If we are going to see military spending increase, it must be paired, because if we are not doing both, then we are not committed to peace.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague from North Island—Powell River. I also travelled with her to Lithuania. A few of us here this evening travelled there. We are probably all still feeling a bit jet-lagged.

What I realized on the trip is that, as parliamentarians, we try to share our information with our foreign counterparts, but we are mostly looking for information. We then act as spokespeople, sharing our takeaways with our House colleagues, in order for the response to be much more concerted and collaborative.

I would like to know what my colleague's main takeaway from the mission was and where it came from. What message does she wish to share with our parliamentary colleagues so that we can follow up with concerted action?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Madam Speaker, it was such an amazing event with so much information that it is hard to pick one thing after the many reports that we heard.

When we hear from all the different countries, to me it is very important to make sure that people understand that the countries have different thoughts and opinions on working out issues. There is a lot of discussion today about Turkey and how important it is for all of our countries to start to work to get Turkey to the next step. That is why we have to focus on the idea of an alliance. An alliance is like having a big family. Sometimes people agree and sometimes people disagree, but if we are going to come together when we need to, we will have to work together.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Madam Speaker, it is an honour and a pleasure to participate in this debate.

I will be splitting my time with the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands. I am not quite sure how that got in there, but my colleague from Saanich—Gulf Islands and I are apparently splitting this time, and I am honoured to do so.

As members have heard, a number of us travelled to Vilnius, Lithuania, in the past few days to participate in the parliamentary NATO conference. It was truly one of those extraordinary experiences, which I had the honour of sharing with the members for Saint-Jean, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, North Island—Powell River and Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, as well as Senator Cordy and Senator Bellemare.

As the member for North Island—Powell River indicated, it is an important element of our responsibilities to participate in these meetings, which extend parliamentary diplomacy and extend our values as Canadians as we try to wrestle with some of the most intractable issues in global politics.

When one lands in Vilnius and comes out of the airport, one sees a country that is sort of emerging from Soviet occupation. Some of the buildings are extraordinarily beautiful. Some are clearly classic, and others are this brutal Soviet architecture, which is just kind of falling down. When one gets to the hotel, one is in a revitalized area of the city, and as one emerges from the hotel, one is confronted with the history of the Baltics, the history of Lithuania. As one walks out of the hotel and goes to the main street, on the left are the parliamentary buildings, about three blocks away, where the issues are debated, which is essentially where we were for the three or four days that we were in Vilnius.

I must say that the presentations were absolutely extraordinary. They were pointed, detailed, very useful and very united. Interestingly, one of the speakers there was the defence minister from Ukraine, and, today, he received a threat of assassination. Nothing focuses the mind like that. However, this was the kind of atmosphere in which we spent, peripherally I would say, three or four days.

From the hotel, if one goes left, there are the parliamentary buildings, and if one goes right, about the same distance, three blocks, one gets to the Vilnius version of Lubyanka, which is where the Russians tortured and killed political prisoners. This one in Vilnius is now a museum to the genocide of the Soviet occupation. Our delegation did not have time to tour what has been turned into a museum of genocide, but as I walked down the sidewalk, in this beautiful, old town of the city, with a gorgeous park right across the street, I saw inscribed on the walls of this prison the names of the people who had been tortured and killed in that building.

What is even more extraordinary, when we read the birth dates and the death dates, is that these people were 23, 25, and occasionally 40 years old. Sometimes they were 21 years old, and sometimes they were even a teenager. Their lives were cut off at the beginning of their aspirations to live a full human life. The reality of these brutal occupations of the Baltic nations over the course of history just descends on us. This is where history and geopolitics merge.

The Baltic nations, whether Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania, have always been the highways to Hell, and whether it was German or Soviet occupations, they have been occupied. Lithuania has actually enjoyed relatively few years of independence, so for the average citizen of Lithuania, this is is not an abstraction. It is not an academic discussion at Carleton University or the University of Ottawa political science department. This is reality for these folks, so when we talk about Finland or Sweden joining NATO, that means something, and that is a real security guarantee that, up to now, they have not enjoyed.

They are afraid, and for a darned good reason, of the Baltic Sea turning into a Russian lake because they would then be threatened not only from land borders, but also from the Baltic Sea, much like the Black Sea, which Putin is attempting to turn into a Russian lake. The joining of Sweden and Finland to the NATO alliance puts that whole enterprise in an entirely different light, and it enables citizens in countries such as Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia some measure of guarantee, which we, as Canadian citizens and North Americans, do not even understand. We do not get it.

For the Europeans, World War III has already started. They understand Bucha in a way that we do not understand it, because Bucha is on the main street to Vilnius. It is memorialized in the lives and deaths of those young Lithuanians, so we are, respectfully, quite naive about what this actually means.

My colleagues and I had some extraordinary experiences, but the one experience that really stayed with me was supper with the committee chairs of the Polish parliament, the German parliament, the Lithuanian parliament and a young Ukrainian MP who reminded me, frankly, of my daughter. I asked her how she was coping with this, and she said she was frozen inside because she had lost family and colleagues. She understood this in a visceral way that none of the rest of us do. The other experience that really hit on me was what the rest of us experienced, which was a young Ukrainian MP calling into the conference who had only five minutes. As she spoke, she said that her signal had been tracked and she needed to hang up the phone, and she went to the bomb shelter.

That is reality in the Baltic nations and Ukraine. I wish I could convey that to my colleagues and our nation.

[Marc Dalton, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, CPC]

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the member for his very insightful and interesting remarks. I have a great deal of respect for him.

I was born in Germany. My dad was in the air force. It was during the missile crisis. We were very close to nuclear war. It was during the time that the Berlin Wall was built. Then in 1989, the wall came down. People thought there was no more need for NATO. People cut their military expenses, including Canada. Obviously, we see now the importance of NATO. Finland and Sweden are putting their names forward. We are certainly supportive. We in the House are supportive.

Former Liberal member of Parliament, Andrew Leslie, who was a lieutenant-general, said the Liberal Party is not serious and does not have a plan for our military or for NATO. I think that is cutting. I wonder if this has maybe brought about a change of thinking.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Madam Speaker, I consider myself a friend of the Hon. Andrew Leslie, whose service to the nation is well respected.

In some respects, as my speech indicated, we do not get the seriousness of the threat that Putin-ism presents to us. Ukrainians are fighting for us as well as for their nation. Where we need to get our act together is in supporting them in a real and material way. I like to think, and I take note, and maybe the hon. member would not appreciate it, but the Ukrainian defence minister, in his presentation, noted Canada's defence minister and appreciated her contributions to the fight.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, my colleague is always so fascinating to listen to.

While we were in Lithuania, I heard something that has stuck with me. Lithuania's parliament building, the Seimas, is not particularly attractive. Some Lithuanians even called it ugly. However, they are particularly proud of it for what it represents, since people have put their lives, hearts and souls into that building.

Indeed, as my colleague said, after gaining its independence for the first time, Lithuania was occupied for several years, first by the Russians, then by the Germans to whom the Russians had given it, before returning to Russian rule until its independence in 1991.

Several times during our visit, the Lithuanians reminded us that they had warned us of what was going to happen. In my colleague's view, why did we not listen?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague is right. It is not a particularly attractive building, but I was not going to use the word “ugly”.

She is also right in the sense that we are not listening. We did not listen in 2008. We did not listen in 2014, and we have been slow to listen in 2022. It is not as if Vladimir Putin does not signal what he is going to do. He tells us what he is going to do. It is blindingly obvious that, if he is successful in Ukraine, then the Baltic nations are next.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the member both for being my travel companion and also for his intervention in the House.

I could not agree more. I was on a trip not too long with the veterans minister across parts of France, the Netherlands and Belgium. I stood in many graveyards that had children buried there, 16 year olds to 25 year olds. It got to the point that, when I saw somebody who was over 35, I thought they had had a long life. I think this is a recognition of why we must always work towards peace, because that is a very high price to pay.

I am just wondering if this member could talk a little about an election promise in 2019 to set up a centre for peace, order and good government here in this country, where we are with that, and if that is going to be happening.