Debates of Nov. 7th, 2023

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Opposition Motion—Reducing Home Heating Costs

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Madam Speaker, before we start the clock again, I would like to make a brief comment to the hon. member for Mégantic—L'Érable. I will do so in French to make sure he understands.

Usually, when a member rises on a point of order regarding an issue that was raised a few days or weeks earlier, he or she waits until the member who has the floor has finished speaking. It is a matter of etiquette and a courtesy that we usually extend to our colleagues in the House. I find it disappointing that he did not wait for me to finish my speech—that is, about 30 seconds—before rising on this point of order.

On the question itself, the issue that the member for Winnipeg North raised is fair in the sense that we do absolutely support and, in fact, the motion here today supports helping people transition off of home heating oil.

His colleague in the Liberal cabinet made it very clear on CTV News that what they were doing had everything to do with partisan Liberal politics in a particular region of the country and very little to do with good policy.

Better policy on the affordability front would be to remove the GST, to make sure that we do not introduce regional schism to the carbon pricing program and that it applies equally to all the people, including people who do not create any emissions to heat their home but nevertheless are struggling in a time of affordability.

That is the answer to the question.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Madam Speaker, I find it very interesting and somewhat tragic, actually. The Liberals have admitted their carbon tax simply does not work. The New Democrats are now scrambling to try to differentiate themselves from their coalition partners. The implications that this has for Canadians are truly the most tragic part of all.

In the last couple of years in this Parliament, dating back to February 2022, we saw the member and all the members of the coalition vote against a Conservative motion that would have, in part, removed GST from home heating fuels. They voted against it at that point in time. They did not care about affordability there. That was a great tragedy for Canadians.

The same thing took place on April 4, 2022, when the NDP voted with its coalition partners in the Liberal Party against an affordability measure put forward by common-sense Conservatives. Again, on June 7, 2022, the NDP voted against a Conservative measure that would have addressed some of these affordability challenges. On October 24, 2022, the New Democrats and the Liberals voted against a Conservative measure. On December—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

Can I ask if there is a question? We have to give time to other members to ask questions.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Madam Speaker, there are numerous other examples, and it is unfortunate that I cannot get through them all. That is how great the hypocrisy of that member is, so—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

I will let the hon. member for Elmwood—Transcona comment on the comment.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

What is tragic, Madam Speaker, is that any time we have reached out to work with Conservatives to reduce the tax on home heating in a way that is actually fair, they have said no. Why is that? It is because they have built a political campaign around the carbon tax. The importance of that campaign to them and their own electoral fortunes trumps doing anything for Canadians in a tangible sense; otherwise, the Conservatives could have worked with us on any of those votes to eliminate the GST from home heating. As I said, that is a position they know the New Democrats have held for close to 20 years now and one that we actually tried to introduce into their motions, with amendments that they refused.

Therefore, if we want to talk about tragedy and who is really committed to trying to make life more affordable for Canadians, the tragic thing is that Conservatives refuse to have a working partner. They want to go to Canadians and tell them that everything is broken. To the extent that things are broken around here, the Conservatives are breaking them. It is dishonest to break things here and then go to Canadians and tell them that somehow the people with the answers are the ones who are breaking them.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Madam Speaker, every time the member stands up in the House, I learn so much from him and so much about the ways that the New Democrats are working very hard to make sure the affordability crisis and the climate crisis are both dealt with.

We talk a lot about how the Conservatives are in the pockets of big oil and gas. One thing that I find very shocking in Alberta is that we lost 1,500 jobs at the same time as these oil and gas companies were raking in massive profits. Could the member talk about why the Conservatives never want to talk about the jobs that we lost in Alberta because of oil and gas?

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Madam Speaker, it is true: As oil and gas profits have skyrocketed over the last number of years, employment in the oil and gas sector has gone down. We see Conservatives say they want more business investment in Canada, but Conservative premiers such as Danielle Smith have been turning down billions of dollars of investment in renewable energy that could also create a lot of employment for Canadians. That is why the Conservatives are not who they say they are and their leader is not who he says he is.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, I would like to address today's NDP motion in a couple of ways.

One thing that is overlooked and underestimated, in terms of the damage, is a concern related to the environment. This is the case whether it is this particular opposition day motion or the previous one that the Conservatives brought forward last week, which we actually voted on yesterday.

When I think of the environment, it really highlights an area where the Conservative Party leadership is missing the point. When people say there are climate deniers in society, I look across the way and see that in the lack of action and policy enunciations coming from the Conservative Party. Those things could provide assurances to Canadians that Conservatives, as a political entity in the House, take the environment seriously. I believe there are indeed climate deniers within the Conservative caucus. They seem to be winning the day. It is unfortunate.

I believe that the Conservative Party is being very irresponsible. When we think about their policies regarding the environment, if people hunt and find something, they will find that it is exceptionally reckless, and nothing more so than the price on pollution. To demonstrate just how reckless the Conservative Party is on this issue, all one needs to do is look at the history inside the chamber and the leadership of the Conservative Party.

Stephen Harper was saying one thing on one day, but then the Conservatives changed their position, and a new Conservative leader came in and took a totally different position. In fact, that position was incorporated into the election platform of the Conservative Party in the last election, just two years ago.

As all members would know, because I have talked about it and other members have talked about it in the past, at that time, the Conservatives talked about the importance of a price on pollution. That is when every political party inside the House of Commons seemed to recognize that what had taken place in Paris in 2015 made a whole lot of sense. A big part of that, coming out of the Paris conference, was that the countries around the world, and many of their provincial or state entities, started to adopt a price on pollution.

At one time, it was actually very encouraging. We had all political entities in the House recognizing that. How far we have fallen from a time in which we had 338 Conservative candidates going out with an election platform and saying that they supported a price on pollution. Today, they have a shiny new leader who says that Conservatives do not believe in a price on pollution anymore; instead, they are taking the bumper sticker policy of axing the carbon tax. That is what the Conservative Party of today is saying.

That is what I mean by reckless. To get a sense of the degree to which the Conservatives are reckless, and taking a heck of a risk, people should just look at the environment and what the Conservatives are saying or not saying in regard to it. I would like to think that the Conservative Party would be a little more reflective, in terms of what everyone else is talking about in regard to the environment. There is an expectation.

I am disappointed, and I think many Canadians are disappointed, in the huge vacuum in the Conservative Party today in regard to the environment.

Yesterday, we had a vote, about which the Conservative Party is trying to portray a false narrative. Its members are actually spreading misinformation in order to justify that false information and manipulation of a particular vote. I will expand on that.

Members can think about a time when people would heat their homes with coal. In fact, in many of those wartime houses, we can see steel plates where the coal would go into the home. Many years ago, people realized that there were alternatives to coal and started to gravitate toward them.

We can fast-forward to today, and we have heating oil, propane, natural gas and electricity. These are the options we have to heat 99% of homes. Where does heating oil fit in? Heating oil is exceptionally more costly as a way to heat one's home. Natural gas and propane would probably be next in line in terms of cost. What has been clearly established is that using electricity and heat pumps is far more energy-efficient and better for the environment. Thousands of Canadians have recognized that.

Members will remember the false information I spoke about. I have heard members opposite say that, as a government, we saw maybe a couple of hundred people changing over to heat pumps. As with many other things, this is misinformation; it is just not accurate. Through the greener homes program, we have seen tens of thousands of people take advantage of the program and convert to alternatives in terms of replacing heating oil, for example, with heat pumps. However, Conservative members, in one swoop, just kind of wave that aside, because it does not fit their narrative.

If we look at the policy announcement, it is a national announcement. The Conservatives, even today during question period, try to regionalize it, as if it were there for one region of the country. That is just not true. They can read into it all they want and try to spread misinformation. However, the bottom line is that, much like the greener homes program, it is a national program. Every region of the country is going to be affected by that program.

It is important to recognize that the province that has the biggest potential to benefit from this is the province of Ontario, which has a quarter of a million households that are actually heating their homes via oil. Therefore, when the Conservatives try to give misleading and false information to Canadians in order to cause division, I find that somewhat regrettable.

I believe that the program is sound from an environmental perspective. That is why I have expressed disappointment with my New Democratic friends because I think they are sending a mixed message. We can look at the heating pump policy that has been established. Putting a pause on the tax and making heating pumps virtually free anywhere in Canada where provinces are participating in the program will cause more people to look at this program as a national program. We will continue to see Canadians buying in and recognizing that changing over is a smart thing to do. The math says that, if someone invests in heating pumps, the cost is substantially less, and over time they will actually save considerably more money than the cost of putting in a heat pump. That is very clear. We have demonstrated that in the past.

We know that there is a high level of interest from Canadians because they have looked to programs, such as the greener homes program, as a mechanism. We know that today other provinces are now looking at ways they can get on board. I hope the Province of Ontario, through Premier Doug Ford, will realize the benefits of encouraging that conversion by participating in it.

Getting back to the reckless attitudes of the Conservative Party, the other day, when the leader of the Conservative Party was addressing the House, I posed a question on the issue of taxes. He had indicated to the House that we should get rid of all taxes on home heating, implying that it is not just the carbon tax he was referring to, but all taxes, including the GST. It was members of the Conservative Party who put the GST on home heating.

Now the refreshed far right elements of today's Conservative Party are changing, again in that reckless fashion. Conservatives are not necessarily concerned about sound policy that is in the best interests of Canadians, whether it concerns the environment or the issue of taxation. That is an important issue. After all, that is the way we finance and fund the many different programs that are out there. They are more concerned about that bumper sticker. That is where their concern is. They want to make sure that they can fit something on a bumper sticker. They go around saying they are going to do this or that, throwing in common sense and then talking about bringing it home. That is what the Conservative Party today is all about. It is all a game; it is all manipulation.

I think they underestimate the importance of when it is time to present something. I do not know how long we have been waiting for the Conservative Party to come to the table and share with Canadians through the House, or in a meeting, what they are going to do on the environment. We are all waiting to see something come from the Conservative Party of Canada on the issue.

When we look at the policy, and combine the issue of affordability with the issue of supporting the purchasing, acquiring and installing of heat pumps, we see that it is a sound policy. As I indicated in the question that I put to my New Democratic friends, how do the Conservatives justify not supporting that particular policy? It sends a mixed message.

Earlier today, I posed a question on the GST. Today, the New Democrats are kind of buying in to some of the things the Conservatives have been saying. They just want to get rid of the GST on home heating. Let us think about what that actually means. They say the purpose of getting rid of the GST on electricity and on natural gas is so there can be more money for individuals who want to be able to heat their homes. The problem is that, when people purchase their electricity, it is fro more than just heating homes.

In the summer in Winnipeg, we do not need to heat our homes. When it is 35°C outside, I do not think there are any furnaces, electric or natural gas, that are being used to heat homes. We have all kinds of items that use utilities in a house, such as a PlayStation, a toaster and lights, and those are not used to heat homes. Are we saying that, for example, if people consume natural gas and electricity, and they have a propane tank, all of those would be exempt for that one household? That is in essence what the New Democrats are saying.

Who would be the biggest benefactors of that policy? I would suggest it would not be the middle class. Do members remember that, in the last budget, we brought in the grocery rebate? Where did the money come from to support that? It was through the GST. That is what allowed us to provide that particular support. By doing that, whom did we help the most? We helped 11 million-plus Canadians, including the middle class and those with lower-end incomes, to get money directly into their pockets so that they would be in a better position to have a higher disposable income to purchase groceries.

What is the NDP proposing today? Someone pointed out that Mr. Weston would be one of the biggest benefactors. He has a fairly big house, not to mention other luxury items. The 1% of the wealthiest in Canada would probably get the biggest reward on the motion the NDP has brought forward. Let us think about a senior on a fixed income living in an apartment versus the 1% wealthiest and where they might be living and the type of resources that they would be spending in consuming electricity, propane and natural gas.

What about pointing out how this policy would help? I would suggest that there is a better way to support Canada's working class and those aspiring to be a part of it. They are those whom we want to help in a more direct way. We have seen a national government over the years lift children and seniors and people with disabilities out of poverty because of targets.

I would suggest that this is irresponsible of the New Democrats, and I think it is, unfortunately, because they are being heavily influenced by the Conservative Party. They need to get a bit more distance from the Conservative Party to have a healthier party in the future.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Madam Speaker, I tried to follow that stream of consciousness, and I was struggling. At one point, I believe the parliamentary secretary was trying to make the case that somehow the GST is a progressive tax, yet nothing could be further from the truth. The GST, as a consumption tax, imposes a higher burden on low-income people as a percentage of their income.

Does he not agree, or would he like to take his two-minute response time to talk about how he does not understand what a progressive tax versus a regressive tax is as a concept?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, I want the member to think about what he just said.

If that is the case, if he truly believes that, then why would the NDP support the GST? What the member is saying is that he wants to see the GST taken off home heating. If he really believed what he just said, he would be articulating that we should be getting rid of the GST, period.

However, what he just finished saying is not true. If we factor in the GST rebates, it is a progressive form of taxation because of the rebates. I do not think that was explained to the member, or maybe he believes that all GST should be taken away, period. Would he apply that to the provincial sales tax, which many New Democratic governments have put in place, supported and increased? At least we provide a rebate that makes it progressive.

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Madam Speaker, I always enjoy listening to the member for Winnipeg North.

From a York—Simcoe perspective, since 2018, we are still waiting for the $40-million commitment for the Lake Simcoe cleanup fund. We still do not have it. We are still waiting on the freshwater action plan. Municipalities are calling me about that money. We are still waiting for our trees to be planted. In York—Simcoe, and I am proud of this, we have planted more than 5,000 trees at Canada Day barbecues right across the riding.

We know that rural Canadians are disproportionately affected by the carbon tax. The people of York—Simcoe were shocked to learn that we are now considered as part of Toronto. We are the soup and salad bowl of Canada, the ice fishing capital of Canada. I know I have invited the member to come ice fishing, and he has not taken me up on that. We have all that, and all the rural farms in Pefferlaw, but we are not going to get the rural top-up, the meagre rural top-up.

Could the member comment on how he thinks that is fair for the residents of York—Simcoe?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, the member started off by talking about Lake Simcoe and concerns for the lakes in his community.

I know when I was in opposition, I had a great deal of concern for lakes around the world. Stephen Harper then cut funding to the Experimental Lakes project, which had a profound, negative impact in the area of science and research on the health of lakes, not only in small communities, but also in communities throughout the world.

I am glad to say that it is one of the things we quickly did after forming government. We re-established the importance of lakes in Canada. Today, the Experimental Lakes project is doing exceptionally well, and the government has taken a very proactive approach to protecting ocean waters and doing what we can to support municipalities in making sure that we have good, quality water.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. However, I would like to bring the debate back to help for households with the lowest incomes.

I have here a letter from Efficiency Canada that proves that federal environmental programs overlook the fact that Quebec mainly uses electricity, a cleaner form of energy. I am wondering whether the same problem exists with the green fund. Let me explain. The executive director of the Centre d'action bénévole de Farnham, which serves Ange‑Gardien and other communities in my riding of Shefford, would have liked to be able to get money from the green fund to do some renovations. The city had given the organization a nice building, but it needed some TLC. These people did their research into whether they could apply to the green fund. From what they saw, this funding is being distributed in other places, but not in Quebec.

Why not have a program that will really help households and organizations in Quebec? Why not have an environmental program to help make buildings more energy efficient, a program that takes into account other factors besides the fact that the building is heated with electricity? The whole building envelope could be included in programs to really help organizations and individuals in Quebec.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, I am afraid my colleague is underestimating the commitment that comes from the people of Quebec in terms of conversions. Quebec is leading the country in taking up the greener homes program, which is a wonderful program going to thousands of people in Quebec who have recognized the value of heat pumps. I see that as a very strong thing. The Government of Canada is providing good, sound national programs to encourage people to take conversion very seriously.

With the national program, I would encourage people to look at Quebec and the people taking the province up on the program. The number of people in Quebec is far higher than any other province in Canada, including Ontario, from what I understand, under that program.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Madam Speaker, one aspect of the speech by the member for Winnipeg North that I really appreciated was helping to articulate, to my surprise as well, that when we talk about removing GST from home heating, there is nothing about income-testing on it in today's motion. I was surprised to see that. I am unsure why that was the case. It makes it more difficult for me to consider supporting it.

My question to the member is specifically on the third part of the motion with respect to a windfall profits tax on oil and gas companies. As he knows, the carbon tax went up only two cents a litre last year and there are rebates attached to that expense. When it comes to the profits of oil and gas companies, though, the carbon tax went up 18¢ a litre and there are no rebates attached. It is part of why oil and gas companies are making record-breaking profits, and a windfall profits tax could generate $4.2 billion for climate solutions.

Does the member support a windfall profits tax on oil and gas companies' excess profits?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, to be completely honest, I am not too sure of the details in what the member is referencing. I do know that we believe in fair taxation and people should be expected to pay their fair share of taxes.

For example, in the budget, we brought in the temporary Canada recovery dividend, which applied to banks and insurance companies, that will generate several billions of additional dollars from excess profits. We are looking at caps regarding emissions, oil and so forth. I just do not know the details to the degree that I can confidently comment on it.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Madam Speaker, what I find very interesting is when we unpack a bit of what the member said. I suggest that maybe the Liberals should stop handing out tinfoil hats in the Liberal lobby because there are conspiracies that abound when it comes to what they are accusing Conservatives of. The fact is that the environment commissioner recently released a report that definitively said, and could not have been clearer, that the Liberals are failing.

The member made some pretty significant accusations about members of the Conservative Party. I wonder if he would be willing to name any so-called climate deniers within our caucus. If he is going to throw out accusations like that, I would ask that he name them to stand behind his words or is he just fearmongering like the rest of them?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, there are five political parties in the chamber. There is only one political party that continues to deny climate change.

The member referred to tinfoil hats. Really? It is the Conservative Party—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. member had an opportunity to ask a question and other members seems to want to either answer or comment. I would ask them to please wait until the appropriate time to do so.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The member is very specifically demeaning the integrity of others in this place, and I believe if you would—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

That is a point of debate. The hon. member will please sit down.

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, the other thing I have to respond to is that the member made reference to tinfoil hats. Well, there is a monopoly on tinfoil hats, and it is on that side of the House in the left corner, better known as the Conservative Party, where they take this and that point, bring it all together and somehow it is something really bad. It is called fake news, false facts or whatever members want to to call it. However, the tinfoil hats are always on sale at Amazon, and I recommend that is where the member should look for his.