Debates of Dec. 11th, 2023

Indigenous Services

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Madam Chair, I am pleased to note that my colleague from Alberta has risen on this very important topic. Speaking of Alberta, given that the member mentioned this in his response, we have a circumstance of first nations' rights being under attack by the provincial government of Alberta, and we have a lacklustre federal government that is unwilling to protect the treaty and inherent rights of Treaty No. 6, Treaty No. 7 and Treaty No. 8 in regard to the unconstitutional sovereignty act that the United Conservative Party of the province is ramming through and forcing first nations to accept. Will the member join members from Treaty No. 6, Treaty No. 7 and Treaty No. 8 in their near unanimous opposition to the terrible, unconstitutional and racist policy that is the sovereignty act?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Madam Chair, I thought the member was going to talk about Bill C-53.

Nonetheless, I would note that the Alberta government has been one of the few governments in this country to put together a fund so that indigenous communities could have an equity stake. They can use that fund to pursue equity stakes in major energy projects. This has brought economic reconciliation to first nations across northern Alberta, ensuring that all Canadians get to participate in the economy and ensuring prosperity for everyone.

When people can take home a powerful paycheque, it gives them the freedom to live their life in the way they feel is necessary. I will never apologize for ensuring that we can have full economic reconciliation in this country.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Madam Chair, this member has been here a long time, and he should know and understand that the colleagues I have, my indigenous brothers and sisters and my relatives across northern Alberta are in a particular condition of poverty right now. That poverty has long been represented in the province, and people's needs have not been served by the ill wishes of corporations that continue to take our lands for granted and continue to pollute our waters.

As a matter of fact, we have seen some of the largest oil spills just recently. Chief Allan Adam has made those spills very clear. In Cold Lake, for example, we are seeing the seeping of their tailings pond there as well.

The issue that is most important and on the top of first nations' minds is this: When faced with these terrible circumstances related to our land, the members only speak about their own interests, their interests for their political, narrow power grab. When it comes to first nations, Métis and Inuit people in this country, we never hear about the constitutional rights that these people have.

Could the member verify that there are, in fact, treaty rights in Alberta, and those rights are directly impacted by the illegal sovereignty act?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Madam Chair, I am not exactly sure what the member is getting at. What I know is that Alberta's interest in ensuring that the oil patch continues to operate and brings prosperity to all Canadians is an imperative.

In Stephen Buffalo's article, he noted:

...the government is cutting our feet out from under us again. Over the past decade, Ottawa slowed pipeline development, passed legislation that hampered resource development, imposed increasingly strict controls on fossil fuel development, and created new levies and taxes to thwart our efforts.

These are indigenous leaders who are trying to bring prosperity to their communities. I do not know why the member wants to stand in the way of that.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations]

Madam Chair, I would first like to acknowledge that we are gathered on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Earlier today, I joined the Minister of Indigenous Services as she introduced Bill C-61, an act respecting water, source water, drinking water, waste water and related infrastructure on first nation lands.

This bill is an important step toward ensuring that all Canadians have access to safe, clean drinking water.

First nations have long called for legislation that affirms their inherent rights, recognizes their stewardship in keeping water clean and meets first nations' needs. This bill is part of our government's commitment to establishing new proposed safe drinking and waste-water legislation in consultation and in conjunction with first nations.

It closely aligns with the ongoing efforts of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada to strengthen relationships between the federal government and indigenous people. This collaboration with CIRNAC is essential in addressing the broader context of indigenous rights and self-determination.

On a personal note, upon my appointment as the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, I emphasized that my contribution to this role stems from a lived experience, a profound understanding of what survival entails, the impact of oppression and the enduring effects of colonialism.

I bring this perspective in the most personal and heartfelt manner, and I am committed to working in partnership with indigenous communities to walk the path of reconciliation, which includes improving water and waste-water operations. On this note, I would like to thank my colleagues opposite for their incredible advocacy and their persistent efforts to keep the government accountable.

First nations have put in the hard work required, with support from Indigenous Services Canada, to lift 143 long-term drinking water advisories.

We recognize that there is more to do. For the 28 active long-term advisories that still exist, there are comprehensive action plans in place for each of the 26 affected communities. Our government is collaborating with first nations to lift advisories on public systems as quickly as possible.

We will continue to make sustainable investments that support access to safe and clean drinking water in first nations. This includes expanding existing water delivery systems and supporting local water operators with their regular monitoring and testing of water quality.

This commitment is paying off, as 267 short-term advisories have been prevented from becoming long-term advisories. Moreover, many of these have been resolved quickly by operators.

For example, in Yukon, the circuit rider training program is implemented by Yukon University, with the support of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada. This is one example of our government supporting first nations as they take control of their water operations.

This program is funded by Indigenous Services Canada and delivered on-site. It provides training and support to local water operators, who are responsible for monitoring and maintaining water systems in first nations communities.

We acknowledge that it is not enough to only eliminate existing long-term drinking water advisories. We need to ensure that everyone in Canada can have reliable access to safe drinking water. In order to make this happen, first nations must have the capacity to operate their own water systems and the self-determination access to do so.

This year, Warren Brown from Lytton First Nation received the 2023 National First Nations Water Leadership Award for his outstanding commitment to protecting his community's water supply. While others in his community evacuated to escape the threat of wildfires in 2021, Brown stayed behind to maintain the community's water treatment plant. This meant that the community was able to enjoy clean drinking water when they returned home. Today, Warren Brown operates 13 drinking water systems and has helped lift six long-term drinking water advisories.

Last year, Indigenous Services Canada launched a call for proposals to identify how water operators on reserves can be better supported. This led to the funding of training workshops for current water operators, as well as funding for programs to attract new water operators in the field.

We have seen meaningful results from our government's effort to help first nations control their own water infrastructure. Transformative work is happening in first nations communities across Canada. The Atlantic First Nations Water Authority is a leading example of first nations showing innovative solutions to water solutions. This central water authority supports first nations communities in Atlantic Canada to upgrade, maintain and manage water and waste-water services. Most importantly, this authority is controlled by first nations and is a strong example of a step toward self-determination.

The AFNWA draws from traditional values, culture and knowledge to help guide its operators. The work merges indigenous knowledge, such as the seven grandfather teachings, with western science, which is an approach called two-eyed seeing. For those who may not be familiar with two-eyed seeing, it is a guiding principle that encourages the simultaneous use of indigenous and western world views. It recognizes the values of both perspectives, allowing communities to draw from the strengths of both traditions to find innovative and holistic solutions.

Part of the reason we are seeing these important strides forward is that communities can implement different solutions according to their own needs. There is no one-plan-fits-all approach. This work is guided at a community's own pace. This emphasis on self-determination allows communities to tailor solutions to their unique needs. The positive outcomes of this approach are evident in the success stories we have witnessed across various regions.

Our government recognizes that we must work in partnership with indigenous communities to ensure that everyone has access to safe and clean drinking water. First nations partners show innovation and leadership in water practices, and we must ensure that communities have the tools and resources they need to implement their own approach and solutions.

In conclusion, this is an ongoing commitment. The collaboration efforts between our government and first nations communities are about an enduring partnership. There will always be more work to do, and we look forward to continuing this journey together.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Madam Chair, I asked a question of the parliamentary secretary earlier and I want to get the minister's take on it as well.

I looked at the website for Crown Indigenous Relations, which is his department, in the context of water legislation. It talks about the engagement approach, which includes “advancing development of a legislative proposal” with the Assembly of First Nations, “ongoing direct engagement with First Nations rights holders, Modern Treaty and Self Governing Nations” and “engaging provinces and territories”.

What we heard earlier from the parliamentary secretary is that it almost seemed like that was an opportunity to fill out a form. In a statement from the FSIN today, it said:

...the first public draft released by Canada in February was developed in secret by Indigenous Services Canada without any direct input from First Nations, a fact that has been raised by the Assembly of First Nations and several regional First Nations organizations over the course of 2023.

Can the minister maybe clarify a bit about how the consultation was done? Was there any going out and talking to people or was there just an online application where people got to participate in the process?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Madam Chair, I know Bill C-61 is not the subject of our conversation today, but it is one of the first co-developed pieces of legislation that has been introduced. It really stems from the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, or UNDRIP. In many ways it was co-developed, and there were a number of different elements to that. One of them was consultation, which included two sets of consultations. One was for the initial draft and the second was for an improved draft. Subsequent to that, there was a group that did work, and many of them spoke today. We had the Chiefs of Ontario and Grand Chief Glen Hare, for example, who spoke today, and others spoke about the work they did to co-develop.

I am very proud of the fact that this was co-developed. I think we can take a lot of learning from here and apply it to other legislation we are developing and co-developing. I look forward to working with my colleague to improve this process.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Madam Chair, I would like to thank the hon. minister for his comments. I know he spoke about Bill C-61, but here is the thing: It is 2023 and the government is patting itself on the back because we do not have that many more boil water advisories to deal with. There are 26. It is abhorrent. The normalization of violating the rights of indigenous people is so accepted in Canada and by the government that we are bragging that there are still 26 boil water advisories. I find this shocking.

What we are actually here to talk about is the sunsetting of $7.6 billion in programs to Indigenous Services Canada. We know that, under the current situation, this is costing people's lives. I have had the pleasure of working a lot with the minister around the issue of murdered and missing indigenous women and girls, two-spirit people and gender-diverse folks, and some of these cuts will make the difference between somebody living or not.

Does my hon. colleague agree with me that these cuts are reckless, knowing that most of these programs are underfunded? Is he committed to doing whatever he needs to do to make sure that does not happen?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Madam Chair, at the outset, let me just deal with the issue of water. The fact that any Canadian parliamentarian can stand up and still say we have 26 boil water advisories, where communities do not have access to clean drinking water, is deeply embarrassing and deeply hurtful. I think it is deeply problematic.

However, the fact is that there has been incredible progress, progress based on what indigenous people, first nations people, have asked for. It is no longer about the federal government procuring 150 systems and saying, let us implement these across Ontario or another region. It is about ensuring that there is local ability, procurement and self-determination over what that system looks like. It is one of the reasons we are here today. There are still 26 to go, and I am confident that we will get to the end point.

On the issue of sunsetting some of the programs, it is important to recognize that many of our programs are multi-year, whether it is three or five years. Particularly with COVID, we had even longer periods of programming that came in that could sunset. Collectively speaking, our government has been consistently renewing and re-establishing programs based on evolving needs. We will not, under any circumstances, compromise the progress we have made with Indigenous Services.

We will continue to ensure that every young person in indigenous communities is supported. The services that ISC provides are so critical. We realize that, and we will continue to ensure that funding is sustained and people are supported throughout Canada in order—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

We do have to allow for other questions. I have been trying to get the hon. minister's attention.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Châteauguay—Lacolle.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Madam Chair, I listened with great interest to the speech by the hon. minister. I am trying to understand something. I have seen Auditor General reports over the years since my time here in 2015, and it was a horrendous situation. In fact, the late Auditor General, Michael Ferguson, made it his special mission to bring attention to this situation.

How did we get to that place in 2015 when it was just a horrific state of affairs? What was the major change, in his opinion, that brought us at least to a better place? We are not in a perfect place, but at least we are in a better place.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Madam Chair, it is simplistic sometimes to say there is one particular incident that led us to this place. I think there were successive governments that underfunded Indigenous Services.

When we took office in 2015, one of the most important aspects of the Prime Minister's commitment and our mandate was to ensure that we walk the path of reconciliation, which means two things. One is to close the gaps, and I would argue it is about eliminating the gaps. When an indigenous child and a non-indigenous child are born today, they should have the same opportunities and the same outcomes, regardless of who they are. I think that is something we still need to work harder at. I believe that is the path we are on.

The second piece is the work that I do with long-term reconciliation, making sure that self-determination is at the core of the work that we are doing. It is no longer an Ottawa-driven approach. It is an approach that is driven by communities based on their needs, based on their values, and the role of the federal government is to support those initiatives.

I want to thank my friend for that question, and I look forward to continuing on this path toward reconciliation.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Madam Chair, I did not know I was going to get a second opportunity.

In four years, the department has grown from 4,200 full-time employees to 7,070. In 2021-22, despite only reaching 17% of the departmental targets it set for itself, 94.6 of the employees at the executive level or above at ISC received performance pay.

Would the minister agree that the significant disconnect between individual performance and organizational outcomes is a big reason we are having these conversations today? We need to hold somebody accountable and I wonder if he agrees.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Madam Chair, I am not going to speak for ISC, but I can tell the member that we have a whole-of-government approach when it comes to reconciliation. As I indicated earlier, the need to close the gap is essential, and the work we have been doing over the last eight years is toward that goal. Whether with respect to the first nations and Inuit health branch, implementing Jordan's principle or the Indigenous Languages Act, just name the program, we have been investing to ensure that we close the gaps.

There is still work to do. I look forward, as a government, to not only doing the work but also ensuring that we are at a place where we are no longer having this debate. It is about moving forward on a true path to reconciliation.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Madam Chair, I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Elgin—Middlesex—London.

I want to spend my time in tonight's debate talking especially about the Auditor General's report “Emergency Management in First Nations Communities”, which came out last year. I have been involved in public accounts off and on for the eight years I have been in this place, and I have seen some eye-wateringly incompetent services or performances by the government. It is almost as if the various ministers are in competition to see who can be the most inept.

There have been several contenders for the award. The Auditor General did a housing study in which it was discovered that the government did not even know whom it was housing, how many people it was housing or how many housing units were getting built, despite billions of dollars being spent, with Infrastructure Canada blaming CMHC for the failures, and vice versa, literally. However, not to worry; executives at Infrastructure Canada and CMHC all still got full bonuses despite the failure. Veterans Affairs was spending money on new programs to alleviate the wait-lists, with no ability to track whether the backlogs had improved or not. Here is a spoiler alert: They had not improved, and had actually gotten worse every year since 2015. However, not to worry; executives all received performance bonuses. The CRA ignored the Auditor General's warnings about over $27 billion of ineligible funding going out to corporations that should not have received the money. One would think that, with so many incompetent departments, perhaps the CRA or another organization would come out as the winner. However, not to worry; along came Indigenous Services and said it would take the gold medal.

The report is specifically about the emergency management of first nations communities, probably the very worst Auditor General's report I have read, period. The department happily spent three and a half times more on responding to crises than on preventive measures. It spent about $646 million responding to emergencies, but only $182 million on preparing for emergencies or on adaptation. Former auditor general Sheila Fraser, when reviewing this issue long ago, said the situation was “unacceptable”. Years later, Michael Ferguson did the same audit on the same issue, and said it was “beyond unacceptable”. Years after that, current Auditor General Hogan now says that we are decades into the failure to serve indigenous people. Her exact words are, “words are not driving change”. This is a problem we see with the government; it is big on announcements but zero on delivery.

For the needed infrastructure for first nations, the dedicated fund's annual amount is $12 million. There are 112 identified projects that are not funded yet, such as fixing dams, dikes and flood plains. I am sure the government will say not to worry; it is getting to them. Over two-thirds of them are over five years old, and 4% of them are over a decade old. Only $291 million is required to address all 112 projects. To put it in perspective, in the last two years alone, the government has paid $88 million directly to Tesla to subsidize wealthy people to buy electric cars, but $12 million a year is dedicated for infrastructure in first nations communities. We need actions, not words. We need a change of government for this.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Madam Chair, I not only have the fortune of sitting with the member on the public accounts committee and share a city, but I also have the fortune to ask the member an important question.

When we studied the audit presented by the Auditor General in relation to emergency management, we heard the deputy minister, who was invited at that time, admit the fact that there was critical underfunding for the preparedness of indigenous nations in direct relation to how prepared they were for natural disasters. As a matter of fact, the deputy minister even confirmed that she told the minister to spend more money. What did the minister do? She denied it.

I would ask the member to speak to the fact that the deputy minister themself seems to be doing what is right, but the minister is not. Can he explain why?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Madam Chair, the point he overlooked mentioning is that we actually had to haul the minister into the public accounts committee to discuss the horrible report. I think that was only the third time in the past 100 years that this has been done.

Another thing the member forgot to bring up, and he brought up a lot of excellent points, is that the ministry blamed first nations for a lot of these problems. I remember being aghast. This is the first time we have actually written, in a dissenting report, a call for the deputy ministers, who have been negligent, to be terminated. I still believe that the deputy ministers who have so failed on this report should lose their jobs over this, and that the minister should resign over it as well. It has been disgraceful.

There is $12 million in permanent money for infrastructure every year, and $88 million for Tesla. We asked the minister whether there was money in the estimates for addressing this, and her comment was, “Well, aren't you going to vote for us in the budget, then?” It has nothing to do with supporting the budget. There was no money in the estimates, and it is not in the departmental plans either to address this tragedy.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Madam Chair, I think we almost have quorum here for public accounts, and we could almost hold a meeting here right now. It is an excellent committee because we certainly have the occasion to learn a considerable amount about a number of different departments.

As I mentioned earlier, it was the late Michael Ferguson who really drew the attention of our committee to the chronic underfunding and chronic neglect of the affairs of indigenous peoples. This was, as the minister just said in his remarks, over a number of successive governments. Really, it is not the time and place to be nitpicking about that, but rather we should be talking about what we are going to do in the future.

I am very happy to hear that my hon. colleague from across the way would support an actual increase in funding of infrastructure, so we are going to hold him to that. It will be good to see him voting in that manner in the future. I would like to ask the member whether he would like to comment, in just a high-level approach, on whether it is more efficient for a ministry to come in and basically do for first nations in a very—

[An hon. member]

Paternalistic.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

—paternalistic way, thank you, or, for first nations communities, for there to be a co-operative and organic approach to actually solving this problem in a sustainable way.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Chair, since we have so many members from public accounts, I would like to table a motion.

My colleague from the Liberal side who serves on public accounts with us brought up doing these things with first nations. These projects that have been identified for five years and 10 years were developed in conjunction with the first nations. The 112 projects that have been approved in conjunction with first nations and identified by first nations have not been funded yet. I want to get back to the $12 million a year in permanent funding. The government built a luxury barn for the Governor General for $8 million, yet has only $4 million more for all of these identified projects. The system is broken. I do not blame the member across the way, but I do blame the government for not addressing these issues and trying to politicize them instead of addressing them.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Mr. Chair, it is great to be participating in this debate tonight. We learned so much about the important issues that first nations and indigenous people are bringing forward, so I would like to thank everybody who has participated. I think we need a lot more of that when it comes to working toward reconciliation.

Specifically looking at Indigenous Services and looking at the PBO report and the executive summary, it clearly indicated that the financial resources allocated to providing indigenous services had increased significantly. Look at the money that is being spent. The department had increased its plan of spending from $9.3 billion in 2018-19 to $39.6 billion in 2022-23 and 2023-24. Authorities for 2022-23 were $44.8 billion. I think this is really important because investing money is important. What we also saw was an increase in the number of full-time employees. It went from 4,200 to 7,200.

When we talk about indigenous services, I want to ensure that we are actually not talking about administration but about water, that we are actually talking about the things that are needed for reserves and those people off reserves.

I am taking this opportunity to speak about things that really matter to me as well, not just the boil water advisories. People who have been in this place have shared a lot with me. I would be remiss if I did not talk about missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, what I have learned and the importance of the red dress alert; the importance of making sure that, if a young indigenous woman or girl goes missing, we know. We must work together to ensure that this gets done. It is going to take all members but we need to get on board to ensure this amber-like alert is there for murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. That is something we must continue to advocate for and continue to work for.

Just moments ago, I was asking about this. If we want to know about indigenous issues or want to talk about indigenous issues, we need to talk to people who know the facts, the people who are on the ground. People provide me with information when I want to talk about Nunavut. I just learned the most heartbreaking information about the increased rate of suicides. If anyone wants to throw a number out there, they would be disgusted because it would be so low. The rate of suicide for those people who are indigenous or Inuit is 25 times that of Canadians. Come on, everyone, what is so wrong with that? When we look at other issues we know that there has been an increase here or there, but 25 times that of Canadians is just appalling.

To those people in Nunavut, we must do all that we can to ensure that services are there for them. We know that it is not just about the services, but it is years and years of history, of perhaps not having the infrastructure. I know that they have been all named in this place. I do not want to miss anything, so I do not want to list them all off tonight because it is very important. If we are working toward reconciliation, we need to do more about this. We cannot let people die. That is exactly what we are doing on our watch. That is not good enough.

We talk a lot at the status of women committee about mental health. One of the greatest challenges is getting mental health services. Imagine if there were no hospital 20 minutes up the road, but instead people had to jump on maybe a propellor, maybe a boat or something like that. Where do people get their mental health services? Those are the questions being asked by so many of the people living in indigenous areas, who are living in those rural and remote areas. We could do better and we should be doing better.

The government has spent so much money and we have seen no results. It has hired so many people with, once again, fewer results. It has increased bonuses with even fewer results. It shuffles money from one place to another. Please, start getting it right. Indigenous people deserve it.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Uqaqtittiji, I know that when it comes to indigenous services from the federal government, it can feel like a very complex issue, given all the different topics that we have to discuss, be it infrastructure, programs or staffing. No matter what we have seen in all past governments and the current one, it is not necessarily the number of staff in the bureaucracy but the unwillingness of the bureaucracy to devolve decision-making back to first nations, Métis and Inuit that is one of the harshest impacts. Therefore, when it comes to reconciliation, I know how important it is that, when decision-making is being given back to indigenous peoples, the devolution requires resources that allow indigenous peoples to make decisions about mental health care and about cultural care.

I wonder if the member agrees that when we are ensuring that indigenous peoples are making their own decisions, equivalent resources must be provided so that they can act on those decisions.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Mr. Chair, I am looking at my little sticky note that says “her voice”, and her voice is that member for Nunavut's voice. We cannot move forward unless there is reconciliation and we cannot move forward unless indigenous people, Inuit people and Métis people are at the table. Yes, of course this comes with resources. Things do cost money, but, when it comes to spending money, I am such a mother. It is about spending money wisely, and I just fear. I have watched the current government explode with its pocketbooks, but it just does not get us anywhere. I really appreciate the question, but money needs to be spent wisely.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Chair, I was listening to the member's speech. I want to, first of all, thank the NDP for initiating this take-note debate today. Given where we are in terms of access to water and clean water, today was a momentous day with the tabling of legislation in this House. Bill C-61 talks about clean drinking water for generations to come. It talks about ensuring that first nations, Inuit and Métis communities have the tools to control water systems and protect the lakes and rivers that they source their water from. It commits investments, ensuring that we do not return to Harper-era cuts, to freshwater systems. It is based on years of consultations and is the process of a co-developed system.

I wonder if the member opposite could comment upon the bill that was tabled today and how it turns the page on the legacy of the previous Conservative government.