Debates of Feb. 13th, 2023

Criminal Code

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I did not mean “our” as in possession, absolutely. I just meant “people as well”. I thank the member for bringing that forward, and I do apologize for that.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, right before Parliament resumed following the Christmas break, countless Canadians participated in Bell Let's Talk Day. They took the opportunity to talk about mental health, raise awareness, share stories and remind each other that it is good to offer or ask for help whenever it is needed. There are many members of Parliament from all parties who have joined this effort, and it is only fair to assume that they have done so because they sincerely wish to help people.

Every year, after the day comes and goes, it helps us realize that promoting mental health is actually a huge task and it is easier said than done. Over time, there has been some progress with how we approach mental health, but it can sometimes be discouraging to see that we still have to deal with some of the lingering problems or to know how much work there is left for us to do. It puts everything into perspective and shows that the results and decisions we make about an issue are more important than just talking about it.

In that light, Bill C-39, along with the larger issue surrounding it, is a real test for us. It forces us to consider what exactly we mean when we say that we want to promote mental health. Unfortunately, we are looking at a government bill that signals that we are going to take a wrong turn and fail vulnerable people who are suffering with their mental health. In a way, it is good to see Bill C-39 come forward, but it should also be clear that it is not good enough. At the very least, there will be a year before this new change takes effect, but that is nothing but a brief delay of the inevitable instead of reversing a terrible decision.

What is going to happen a year from now? Is the government going to bring another bill like this one forward to delay it another year? Will all the major problems raised by the provinces, professionals, advocacy groups and concerned citizens miraculously get resolved before the year is over? How is that even realistic? Does the government really expect Canadians to believe that?

The timeline is obviously ridiculous. It does not make sense practically and, more importantly, it will not take care of the issue at stake in the first place. There might be different views on assisted suicide for mental illness as the sole condition, but no one on either side of the debate can seriously say that it has been carefully considered in this country, if such a thing were possible. Instead, the whole process has been rushed and incomplete.

If the Liberals truly cared about making the right decision, the new legislation would be quite different. Even on their own terms, they will not be any more ready for the coming change next year than they would be if it was next month. It was only public pressure that made them slow down, but it is not going to stop them entirely. Clearly, they are planning to go ahead with the plan and hoping to get away with it again next spring.

It is highly irresponsible if we take a step back to consider the larger issue. First, I will look at this bill as it has been presented to us. We normally do not have to think too much about the official title of a bill as it comes through Parliament, but in the case of Bill C-39 it does matter, and it might even be fair to say that its name is somewhat misleading. It says that we are amending the Criminal Code related to the medical assistance in dying system, but that is only a technicality. In reality, this bill is not touching the substance of Bill C-7 as it was passed in the last Parliament. All it would do is delay the implementation of Bill C-7 or the aspect of the expansion for one year. That is definitely not a helpful or encouraging response to what Canadians and experts have been telling us since Bill C-7 became law, both inside and outside Parliament.

When Bill C-7 passed in 2021, 91% of Ontario psychiatrists opposed the expansion of euthanasia, but they were ignored. The government has not bothered to listen to critical advice and feedback. Make no mistake, there are ordinary citizens across the country who are horrified when they learn of what is happening here with expanding accessing to MAID for mental illness. I have heard from a lot of people in my own riding who are concerned. They came up to me at hockey rinks. They came up to me at my various town halls that I hosted over the winter break and told me how unimaginable it was for this is to happen in Canada.

There has been the same reaction around the world when people in other countries found out what has happened here in Canada. We stand out compared to other places that offer assisted suicide, and not in a good way. International media coverage shows how Canada's reputation has suffered as a result. It is long past time for the government to get outside of its bubble and hear what Canadians are thinking and feeling. Despite the Minister of Justice trying to claim that our system has strict safeguards, we need to look around and realize that something is not going right.

Canada reported 7,300 deaths in 2020 and 10,000 deaths in 2021. It is interesting that if we compare with another jurisdiction, it gets even more troubling. The state of California started to allow assisted suicide the same year that we did in 2016. The size of its total population is similar to that of Canada, yet it only reported 495 deaths in 2020 and 486 deaths in 2021. The difference in proportion is striking.

People see these numbers and they cannot believe that this government is considering expanding access even further to people with mental illness as a sole condition. They cannot help but wonder if these people are already slipping through the cracks and are caught up in the numbers we have here in Canada.

If we want to understand the background of how we found ourselves in the situation today with Bill C-39, we need to recall what happened with the previous bill. Back then, this Liberal government brought forward a piece of legislation that was a significant expansion from the way MAID was originally set up a few years before. It allowed assisted suicide for conditions where natural death was not reasonably foreseeable.

At the time, we heard overwhelmingly from many advocates, organizations and members from the disability community who were deeply concerned about the government's new direction. They pointed out the flaws and the risks involved for people with disabilities who could find themselves in a vulnerable position, and experience abuse rather than receiving the support and the resources they needed. They also worried about the stigma and the message it could send to the disabled as well as to wider society. It was clear that it would not be unacceptable for anyone, whether they live with a disability or not, to get the impression that these human lives are inferior or not worth living.

Here we are seemingly caught in a similar position once again. It was shocking when the Liberals accepted the last-minute amendment to include mental health as a condition for assisted suicide. Since then, they have had time and opportunity to reconsider, but they refuse to listen and protect the lives of vulnerable Canadians. If government members do not put a stop to the expansion of MAID for mental health, it will be impossible to take them seriously when they try to talk about a mental health crisis.

I want to take a moment to talk about Michael Landsberg, who spoke very passionately about mental health a number of years ago, and I consider this man to be a pioneer and a trailblazer.

Michael Landsberg was the host of Off the Record on TSN. Mr. Landsberg has a foundation called “#SickNotWeak”. A big part of what he talked about 20 years ago, and what he talks about today once again, is the stigma that people with mental illness quite often face and that people with depression face. When we look at the disability community and what we talked about earlier with the stigma around them, we are seeing that happen again for people with mental illness. I think it is important that we look at the stories of people like Michael Landsberg who has spoken so clearly and passionately around making sure that we do not provide harmful stigma for mental illness. When we look at the statistics that I quoted earlier, there is a real and present danger here if we do not address this properly while we have the opportunity.

Across the country there is a lack of mental health support, especially in rural ridings like mine. It is absolutely shameful to offer death as a solution. While Bill C-39 brings a pause in this expansion, it is inappropriate to use it as a selling tactic with the hope that public opinion will shift to their direction in the meantime.

However, a delay is not enough. We need to exclude mental health as an eligible condition for assisted suicide. This government must stop and review what it has done with the system. If not, it only shows that it is untrustworthy. There has been no sign of meaningful reflection about its previous legislation. Because of this, it has failed to reassure Canadians about further changes. We talked about the safeguards earlier; people are wondering if they even exist.

How can we ignore the veterans who are offered MAID instead of mental health support? How can we proceed when we have seen people in poverty and distress offered it against their will? These types of reports are coming far too often, and we cannot say that we had no warning. The predictions of experts and from many of us here on the official opposition have been proven to be correct so far. If this expansion happens in March 2024, how can anyone possibly pretend that these problems cannot get much worse?

Because the Liberals will not do what is necessary, one of my Conservative colleagues has taken the initiative to introduce a bill that will remove eligibility for mental illness. It would give us another chance to prevent this catastrophe, and I hope my colleagues support it.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, one of the things that I have witnessed over the years while we have been debating the issue of MAID, from 2016 and onward, is that there is no unanimous consent coming from the Conservative benches. There are many individuals even within the Conservative Party who have differing opinions in terms of what it is that the member himself is suggesting. If I am wrong on that I would be very much interested in the member telling me that I am wrong.

The reason I say that is because there was a special joint committee for MAID that has been out there doing a great deal of consulting, working with Canadians, looking to health experts and talking to individuals who are either direct or indirect stakeholders. There has been a great deal of discussion.

On the legislation itself, I suspect that the member is going to be voting in favour of it, but I am wondering if he could provide his thoughts in regards to the fact that even within his own political party there is no overwhelming sense that what he is suggesting is in fact the best way to be going.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, there was a great phrase coined by our interim leader that “unity does not mean uniformity.” The reason that is important is because MAID is a deeply personal issue. We are not here to talk about the merits of MAID in and of itself. What we are here to talk about today is the expansion of mental illness as a sole reason for people to be eligible for medical assistance in dying.

If we look at the results Canadians are seeing, it is quite alarming and astonishing to see the government is willing to proceed with that as a reason for people to access this. Where we are united as a party, and I think where most Canadians, generally speaking, across this entire country are united when it comes to this issue is they want to see people have access to the supports they need for mental health.

I referenced Mr. Landsberg and how for over 20 years he has been advocating for the conversation around mental health and to try to eliminate the stigma that for so many years was assigned to people with mental illness. When we proceed with allowing mental illness to be a sole reason, it sends the wrong message. That is where Canadians want to see us go, which is to make sure we are sending the right messages and giving people hope as they go forward when they are going through their darkest hour.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague talked about supports for people with mental health issues. One group we have not talked about is public safety personnel. This is definitely not partisan; it is about us both coming from rural communities. That includes border services, corrections services, firefighters, operational intelligence personnel, paramedics, police, public safety communications and search and rescue personnel. Half those individuals experience some sort of mental disorder in their career in their lifetime and one in 10 will actually consider death by suicide.

These professionals and their families have remained decades behind. We know about the military and veterans with regard to supports for their well-being, and we are just scratching the surface in addressing their considerable mental health needs. Their core funding comes from the Canadian Institute for Public Safety Research and Treatment and concludes on March 31, just six weeks from now. Without a renewed commitment on that funding, it will end.

Maybe my colleague can speak about some of those public safety personnel in his riding who have suffered through PTSD or some trauma and how important it is we get the proper resources to support them, especially those heroes who have put their lives on the line and the sacrifices they made, as we know coming from rural Canada.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I really appreciate the member's question, because too often people from rural Canada are forgotten about. With the uniqueness of working with the provinces, letting the provinces decide how that is going to be spent is going to be beneficial. Every province has a different geography. They have different programs. They have different needs and different ways of having that set up. There might be a federal workforce like CBSA, but the provinces are going to be best situated to make sure the funding gets rolled out properly. There is a healing lodge in my riding, and it would have the opportunity to advance cultural practices that would be suitable to the needs of indigenous people. Allowing each region of the country to have a bit more control of that funding would be appropriate.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour to rise this evening and speak to Bill C-39. This legislation aims to extend medical assistance in dying to those with the single underlying cause of mental illness for one year. If we do not approve of this legislation, it comes into effect on March 17.

I must begin by expressing my disappointment with the timing of the legislation before us today, with mere days before the House of Commons runs out of time to debate and vote on this, in order for it to go to the Senate to also be debated and voted on prior to March 17. This is the date that medical assistance in dying comes into effect for those with the single underlying cause of mental illness.

As it stands, this eleventh-hour legislation will only create a new arbitrary deadline of March 2024, replacing the present deadline of March 2023. There is no basis in science or evidence for this 12-month delay, only the shuffling of government timetables, although I am grateful that it will not take effect next month if all parliamentarians vote for this bill and it goes through the Senate.

This timetable was originally set, at the government's decision, when it accepted an amendment from the Senate to the original medical assistance in dying legislation, Bill C-7.

Despite the Minister of Justice initially expressing his concern at committee that medical assistance in dying could be done safely for those suffering from mental illness, he accepted that expansion upon amendment from the Senate and then shuttered debate on this issue when Bill C-7 returned to the chamber. He now returns to Parliament, trying to undo a problem that he started.

I will be voting in favour of this legislation, not because I think that the government has gotten this right but because if I do not support it, and if most members in the House do not support this legislation, medical assistance in dying would automatically become available to those suffering solely from mental health issues on March 17.

Abandoning people with mental illness to turn to medical assistance in dying instead is heartbreaking. When the Ontario Medical Association surveyed Ontario psychiatrists in 2021, 91% opposed the expansion of MAID for mental illness. Only 2% supported it.

The Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance in Dying heard from a range of experts on the topic, clinicians, psychiatrists, and mental health advocates. They all expressed the same concern. Clinically determining that a patient will never be able to recover from a mental health challenge is impossible. It cannot meet end-of-life MAID criteria by any objective standard. Dr. John Maher, a clinical psychologist and medical ethicist, told the committee, “Psychiatrists don't know and can't know who will get better and live decades of good life. Brain diseases are not liver diseases.”

Canadians are rightfully horrified by news reports detailing the increasing prevalence of Canadians seeking MAID for circumstances for which it was never intended. Multiple Canadian military veterans who fought for our country, seeking help from Veterans Affairs, claimed to have been pressured by Veterans Affairs staff to consider medically assisted dying. It was reported that the matter was turned over to the RCMP for investigation and that the Veterans Affairs department was doing an internal review. A food bank manager from Mississauga reported clients asking about assisted suicide not for physical illness reasons.

Despite these stories, the government was undeterred in proceeding with its original March 2023 deadline. Thankfully, Canadians stepped in, phoned, emailed and wrote to every MP in the House. They called for us to think again on this matter and there was pressure put on the government. People were concerned about protecting the most vulnerable, and rightfully so. The legislation before us today is a sign of their efforts.

I was very touched by some of the correspondence from my own residents in Kelowna—Lake Country. I often try to be the voice of my residents in Ottawa.

Judith, in Kelowna, wrote to me with her concerns after hearing about the delay in the planned expansion of MAID for those with mental illness as the single underlying cause. She acknowledged that many people have brought forth many concerns to the government, and she was surprised that the Liberals were now just delaying the expansion.

Not every community has the same mental health services, especially rural areas. I was speaking in person to a young man last week who was movably shaken by the thought of medical assistance in dying being considered to be made available to individuals whose sole underlying condition is mental illness. His deceased mother had struggled with mental illness, and he was extremely angry to hear that the Liberal government had not cancelled outright the option for people to seek MAID under these parameters. Instead, this legislation delays it.

The public outcry and concern about this is really what forced the government to take this first step of MAID delay for people with the single underlying cause of mental illness. There are mental health stories from people I know or have met that I could share in the House, but I am not going to because I would not be able to get through them.

I do not want to give up on people, and the government is giving up on those experiencing mental illness. We must focus on giving people help and hope. We must focus on treatment for mental illness rather than assisted death. Conservatives do not want to give up on people.

As I said earlier, this legislation only creates a new arbitrary deadline. Parliament would be better served in our responsibility to Canadians, particularly vulnerable Canadians who feel lost in their lives, to abandon this reckless expansion of MAID to those with mental illness as the sole underlying condition. We cannot, and should not, give up on persons experiencing mental illness, and we must make it clear and ensure support is there for help and treatment.

Medical assistance in dying cannot be the most accessible solution for individuals with mental illness. Instead of bringing forth changes to expand MAID to persons with mental illness, the Liberals should instead be focusing on proposals to bolster mental health support for Canadians, many of whom are facing challenges in a postpandemic world and the impacts of the last eight years of the Liberal government, which has divided families and neighbours, and of its inflationary policies, which are squeezing peoples livelihoods.

The Liberals have failed to keep their pledge from the snap election in the summer of 2021 for a permanent multi-billion dollar mental health transfer to the provinces and territories, which was to ensure that they have the funding and support needed to expand mental health care. We are in a mental health crisis, yet the Liberal promise appears to have gone to the back of the line.

We have to remember that it was the Conservative member for Cariboo—Prince George who spearheaded a three-digit suicide prevention hotline in Canada, 988. All parliamentarians unanimously supported this motion in the House of Commons. This was over 900 days ago, and it still does not exist.

Now, that is not surprising considering the Liberals gave the task to their catch-all department, the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, the CRTC, to implement. What did the Liberals do instead?

They did not bring in legislation to cancel the implementation of MAID for those with the sole underlying condition of mental illness, they just delayed it. Building the mental health support systems Canadians need to live healthy, fulfilling lives will be a top priority for Conservatives in this Parliament and a future Conservative government.

People deserve mental health resources to help them. People deserve hope. Families deserve hope. This is what we will be focused on.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I support the need for additional mental health for Canadians. That is why I am very proud of the fact that we have a $198-billion agreement with the provinces now over the next 10 years, as provinces will determine how best to use that money. There are some qualifiers for that. There is going to be more accountability. There is going to be transparency.

Let us contrast that, as Conservative members stand up and are critical of the government, saying that we are not doing enough on mental health. I think we need to be honest with Canadians in what the Conservative Party is proposing to do on mental health, which is nothing. There is no commitment coming from the Conservative Party to deal with mental health, rural or urban. If there is, I ask the member to please tell me where the announcement is. What is the Conservative Party doing? Give me another half-hour, and I will be more than happy to explain what it is the Liberal Party is doing in support of mental health.

Depression is not going to be used as access to medical assistance in dying. I have more confidence in our medical profession.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we have to look at the results of the government. The Liberals have been in government for eight years, and one result of the government, which I gave as an example during my speech, was to implement a 988 suicide hotline across the country. It was unanimously supported by the House, but here we are more than 900 days from it happening. This is one very small step and the government cannot even implement it.

We have to look at some of the other results. We have to look at the mental health and addiction crisis we have across the country. We have to look at the results of eight years of the government. When looking at the cost of living, we see the price of houses has doubled in eight years and we have record-high inflation.

Regardless of what the Liberals say they are doing or hope they are doing, we have to look at the results of their actions after being in government for eight years, and it is not very good.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we know that the government has not delivered a single dollar after its promise of mental health transfers. The member talked about the importance of support. We agree with her given what I heard in her speech.

The government still has not tabled legislation to create parity between mental and physical health, which is absolutely critical. We have heard from the disability community, especially people who are suffering with mental health issues as their underlying illness, and they are all saying they need better supports, such as access to treatment. They are also saying that it is tough to pay their bills, buy groceries and pay for rent.

We put forward a proposal for a guaranteed livable income for those living with disabilities and for seniors. We know tax breaks are not going to help people in that category because they do not have the income. I am hoping my colleague can talk about some of the solutions to help support those who are struggling so they are not considering medically assisted dying for an underlying mental illness.

We can talk about solutions. I know the Liberals want to deflect because they do not want to talk about their track record. That is what they just did in the question to my colleague. I am hoping we can hear more proposals to help support people.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question. I see his other colleague, whom I sit with on the HUMA committee and work with very closely.

I am really glad the member brought up people with disabilities. We worked really hard on Bill C-22, and it is a classic example of a real failure from the government. It championed that it was going to be bringing in this disability benefit act, and we spearheaded it through Parliament, but people with disabilities still do not know how much they are getting, when they are getting it or when it will be implemented. Everything will be done by regulation instead of legislation.

There is so much uncertainty, and that is how the government governs. It has grand announcements and big fanfare, but its actions have no substance to them. A perfect example is what we saw with that legislation.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

I have allowed two questions and two answers throughout the question and comment portion, and I want to make sure that we try to keep ourselves brief so that other members can participate in the debate.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Louis-Saint-Laurent.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise with great pride and emotion to take part once again in the debate on medical assistance in dying.

I have had the privilege of being a member of Parliament for nearly eight years now. I was also a member of the Quebec National Assembly from 2008 to 2015. I, along with my colleague from Bourassa, am one of the few here who have participated in the debate on medical assistance in dying as a member both at the provincial level and the federal level. I can say in all modesty that this gives me a very unique perspective. I will expand on this in a moment.

If there is one issue that calls for political partisanship to be put aside, it is medical assistance in dying. I have a fundamental belief that has not altered one bit in the time I have been involved in these debates: There is no right or wrong position, there is only the position that each person, as a human being, is comfortable with.

When we hear an opposing viewpoint, we should listen and respect it, not attack it in a partisan way. I will always remember something that happened in June 2014 in the National Assembly. A Liberal MNA at the time, Saul Polo, was sharing his views in the debate on medical assistance in dying. He was vehemently opposed to it, to an extent that is hard to imagine. I remember it very well, because I was sitting along a line in the National Assembly that was perpendicular to where he was. His face was flushed with passion and his fist was clenched, and he was saying that we should not touch this subject. When he finished his remarks, I stood up and applauded him, not because I agreed with him, but because I was celebrating the fact that in that legislature we could have completely divergent, but respected and respectful views.

That is the approach we should be taking when dealing with an issue as personal, sensitive and human as medical assistance in dying. We can trade jabs back and forth all day long, and let us just say that I do pretty well when it comes to attacking my opponent. There may be 1,000 good reasons to attack one's opponent, but please, we must not use MAID to attack one another. We must respect opposite views.

We have come together today because the government has decided to set aside its goal to allow access to medical assistance in dying for people with mental illness. It is the right thing to do. While I personally support a well-regulated MAID regime combined with extensive palliative care, the issue of medical assistance in dying for people with mental illness is extremely sensitive, so these kinds of measures must not be rushed through.

The government had intended to expand access to MAID as soon as possible, that is, in just a few days, to include people struggling with mental illness. It has since decided to take a pause. I cannot call it a step back, because the government still plans to go ahead with this, but in a year from now. This is not the right way to go, and I will explain why.

Any number of personal reasons may be in play when people decide where they stand. I imagine we all know one person who has experienced serious mental health issues and hit rock bottom, never to recover—or so those around them believed. We all also know people who have bounced back from terrible trials that dragged them into a downward spiral, an abyss of profound sadness. With time, they managed to adapt to their reality, gradually build themselves back up and regain the sense of self-worth we all need.

That is why, as I see it right now, medical assistance in dying cannot be for people tumbling in the darkness. I have found the Quebec experience to be helpful in pondering this issue. To be clear, I am not saying that Quebec is better than anyone else. That is not it at all, but the fact is, there has been more legislative work and more studies on medical assistance in dying in Quebec than anywhere else. In Quebec, we have been talking about it for 15 years. I know what I am talking about because I participated in the debates in the National Assembly and in the House of Commons.

Here is a statistic that members might find surprising. More people are dying with medical assistance in Quebec than anywhere else in the world. The statistics published in Le Devoir in January show that 5.1% of the deaths in the province were medically assisted.

That is more than in the Netherlands and Belgium, which have rates of 4.8% and 2.3%, respectively.

Should we be proud of that situation? Should we be ashamed of it? No. It is just something that we should be aware of. It is not up to me to judge the fact that 5.3% of people in Quebec are currently choosing to have medical assistance in dying. That is just the reality. The figures do not lie.

The Quebec nation worked hard on this issue at the parliamentary level and, a few years ago, the government opened the door to studying the idea of whether medical assistance in dying should be made available to those suffering from mental illness.

After many weeks of thorough and rigorous work and hearing from as many as 3,000 people and hundreds of experts as part of a consultation process, the committee that examined the issue and the government in office decided not to move forward on medical assistance in dying for those suffering from mental illness. Why?

Here is what it says in the committee's report, and I quote:

We note, at the conclusion of our work, that there is no clear medical consensus on the incurability of mental disorders and the irreversible decline in capability that would be associated with them. There are differing positions among specialists. As legislators, it is difficult for us to comment on this issue.

The Liberal MNA David Birnbaum explained:

There is no clear consensus in the medical community on the incurability and irreversibility of mental disorders. Yet [these criteria] are part of the fundamental guidelines in the current legislation. Persistent doubts about the evaluation of these two criteria lead us to exercise [the greatest] caution.

That prompted the former Parti Québécois MNA for Joliette, Véronique Hivon, to say:

This decision proves that the goal is not to open up access more and more, to expand, but to open up the right amount of access to respect the individual while protecting the vulnerable.

That comes from Quebec, where 5.3% of the population chooses medical assistance in dying. This legislative measure came from Quebec. For 15 years, Quebec has been studying the issue of medical assistance in dying in an objective, neutral, non-partisan manner. I know what I am talking about, and so much the better.

The current government wanted to proceed hastily on this issue. No. I applaud and will vote in favour of this bill we are discussing this evening. It will allow us to take a lateral step to delay the Liberals' ambition. We will see where things stand in a year and whether they want to go further on this.

Everyone needs to understand one thing. By its very nature, medical assistance in dying is irreversible. Louise-Maude Rioux Soucy said it well in an editorial that appeared in Le Devoir on January 4:

MAID is offered as part of the continuum of care...There is an unwritten obligation attached to it: the quality and universality of palliative care must be beyond reproach in order to guarantee, at all times and in all circumstances, that medical assistance in dying is an exception.

I will now talk about a much more personal story. Last year, I was confronted with the reality of death. My mother, aged 97 years and 10 months, died in May, and my father, aged 99 years, four months and two days, died in December. As we can see, they died seven months apart and lived for a century. They were seriously ill at the end of their lives. In the winter of their lives, my mother and father fought to survive and death came for them.

MAID never came up because it was a non-issue. They were not interested. Our family was lucky. They got the most excellent palliative care available, and we are grateful. We were able to talk to them. Their children, grandchildren and even their great-grandchildren were able to talk to them. I wanted to share this because, at the hospital where my mother was, there was a section for people receiving palliative care who were about to die in a matter of days and, just down the hall, there was another section for people about to receive MAID. I had some great conversations with family members and even the individuals who requested MAID. The point is, we can and must respect the wishes of every individual. There is no right or wrong. There is only what we are comfortable with. I am comfortable with MAID as long as palliative care is available.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments from the member opposite because, for the most part, I concur with what the member is saying. In the debate that took place in regard to Bill C-14, if the member looks at Hansard he will see that the issue of palliative care and hospice care was huge. Members on both sides of the House understood how important it was that we have that in our communities, as we did not want to see people using MAID as an escape because of not having that care.

Again, when I reflect on what we are talking about now, more and more members are talking about the issue of mental illness. It is good that we all have a consensus. No one is talking about depression as being something that would allow someone to apply for MAID. If they do apply, the doctors and medical professionals are not going to authorize something of that nature. We are talking about the extreme situations. That is my understanding.

It is good to hear those independent voices on this particular issue and, as much as possible, I would concur. I would just ask the member to continue to expand upon why it is important that we take the party politics out of it, because it is very much a personal issue.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yes, for once I can agree deeply with my colleague from Winnipeg North. As I said earlier, there are hundreds of good ways to attack an opponent. Let us please not take medical assistance in dying to address a political issue.

For sure, we have to be very careful. This is why, when we talk about mental illness, it is very tough to trace the line exactly on what is good and what is wrong, what is mental illness and what is incurable. This is why we have to be careful and we have to listen carefully. It is a bit too early, to say the least, to address it. Based on the Quebec experience, with 15 years of parliamentary work, two bills have been passed and it is very progressive, if we can use that adjective, in this area, where 5.3% of people die with medical assistance in dying. We have to be careful and the Quebec experience told us not to touch it right now.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, certainly I agree that there needs to be more investment in palliative care and it is a very important aspect of our society. Today, we are talking about mental health and MAID. We know that one of the pillars of recovery from mental illness is a financial pillar: the ability to have a house, to buy food and to get access to medication and supports. Does the member feel that a guaranteed livable basic income is something that could alleviate suffering in the wake of the mental health crisis in this country?

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in my life as a member of Parliament, and before that as a journalist, I have seen people with so much money and they had deep trouble with mental illness. Also, I have seen people with a huge family and a very tough life, because their income was not as good as expected, but they were happy, all together. Therefore, I do not think that we can put a price on mental illness.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to say a huge thanks to my colleague and dear friend from Louis-Saint-Laurent for his speech. I totally agree with him.

Perhaps he would agree with me that in the debates on Bill C-14, the government promised to do more for palliative care, if I remember correctly. That was a few years ago. I think those promises have been broken.

I would like to hear what my colleague thinks.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Speaker, that is a debate for the provinces. It falls under the issue of health care funding, which, as we know, is a provincial responsibility.

I will let the provincial legislatures debate the ongoing funding for medical assistance in dying, especially for palliative care.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to talk about this issue tonight, because for me it is deeply personal. As someone who has suffered with depression and mental health issues at various times in my life, including a severe depressive period for which I was seeking treatment, I think the expansion of medically assisted death to those with mental health conditions is incredibly troubling. The fact that this is where we are, almost a month away from when this would be available to Canadians suffering with mental health issues, is a catastrophic failure of the government to properly deal with this issue. I am so unbelievably disappointed that the Liberals are rushing through legislation now to try to delay the implementation of this because they did not do any of the hard work that was necessary in order to get this right. The problem is that there is so much evidence out there on how they could have gotten it right, yet they chose not to.

I want to talk a bit about an article that was written on December 15, 2022, by Dr. Karandeep Gaind, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Toronto and the chair of his hospital's MAID team. If anyone has not done it, they should read this article, because it outlines and summarizes the incredible challenges with this issue and how the government has failed in examining it.

I am going to start here: “[E]vidence shows it is impossible to predict that a mental illness will not improve in any individual.” He goes on to say, “Yet expansion activists mistakenly believe they can make such predictions.” Research, which he cites, “tells us their chance of being right amounts to chance or less, with precision modelling showing only 47 per cent of [irremediable medical condition] predictions end up being correct”.

This means that 47% of the time when a doctor says a person's mental health will not improve, they are wrong. This evidence was readily available to the government at any time, yet we find ourselves having to push through legislation to delay it at the last minute.

He goes on to say this: “[W]hen expanded to those seeking death for mental illness, evidence shows MAID becomes indistinguishable from suicide.” We should remember that this is a psychiatrist talking. He says, “We cannot differentiate those seeking psychiatric euthanasia from suicidal individuals who resume fulfilling lives after being provided suicide prevention, rather than facilitated death.”

Let that sink in for a minute. This is a psychiatrist who teaches at the University of Toronto and is the chair of his hospital's MAID team. These are the things he is saying. He has been saying them for a very long time, and the Liberals still could not get this right.

He then talks about the federally appointed panel:

The government-appointed federal panel...was responsible for providing safeguards, standards and guidelines for how to implement MAID for mental illness. Instead, the panel recommended that no further legislative safeguards be required before providing death for mental illness, and did not provide any specific standards for the length, type or number of treatments that should be tried before providing MAID. Its report even suggested society had made an “ethical choice” that MAID should be provided even if suicide and MAID were the same.

This psychiatrist is summarizing what the government panel found. To me, it is absolutely and truly shocking.

He goes on to say, “I am not a conscientious objector.” There are many who are. There are members in this place who conscientiously object to medically assisted death. I am not one of them. I think it can be appropriate in certain circumstances, and Dr. Gaind is in that group as well. He says, “However it is clear to me that Canada’s planned expansion of MAID to mental illness is based on ignorance—if not outright disregard—of fundamental suicide prevention principles.”

Let that sink in. Again, I go back to who is saying this. This is not me saying this, not a parliamentarian saying it who does not have experience in mental health. This is a psychiatrist at the University of Toronto and the chair of the hospital's MAID team. He finishes, “It appears to ignore what drives the most marginalized people to consider death as an alternative to life suffering.”

This again is the incredible challenge. We have heard all the reports about people thinking they should now get MAID as a result of mental health issues. I cannot believe that we let it get this far, that we do not have rules in place and that we have to go forward and put this off.

The government had so much time to get this right and it could not. It did not even come close. This to me is just a symptom of how the government does things without thinking them through, without thinking of the consequences. What is going to happen if we do not get this bill passed by March 17? Then it is open and available. How is this legislation just being introduced now to push it back? The government knew ages ago that it was not going to meet this deadline. It knew ages ago that it did not have safeguards in place, and yet here we are now. I find that breathtaking.

The doctor's final comments in the article, I think, we should all listen to. They read:

Postponing the March 2023 expansion of euthanasia for mental illness is the only responsible course. Canadians and mental health organizations recognized this and called for it, with the Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention and over 200 individual psychiatrists so far signing a petition to this effect, and the academic chairs of the departments of psychiatry across Canada joining this call for delay.

That article was written in December and here we are now dealing with this legislation. It is a catastrophic failure by the government and the minister responsible for this. Let us hope it is not a catastrophic failure for Canadians.

Someone who is dealing with a mental health issue needs help. Let us be clear. I went through a period in my life where I did not want to continue to live. It was a deeply dark, terrible period of time.

The government is moving forward with this legislation with absolutely no safeguards in place to protect people who are in that terrible place. Eminent psychiatrists have been banging the clarion bell on this for ages and the government did nothing until the last minute. Now it is saying we have to put it off.

I can tell colleagues that I have absolutely no faith that the government is going to get it right. As the quotation I cited in the article stated, the panel got it wrong. I do not know if there has been any ministerial direction to make sure it gets it right. What I can say is this. On this side of the House, we are going to stand up for people with mental health issues. We are going to protect them and not let the government just throw them under the bus.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, just to provide a little bit of clarity on the issue of mental health, I challenge the member or others who want to make this more partisan to tell me of another government that has invested as much money in health care or mental health, and has focused so much attention on mental health, as this national government has. Stephen Harper definitely did not do that.

My question to the member is related to the special joint committee. There is a special joint committee whose membership comes from all sides that is doing a lot of work on the issue. Does the member believe there are no exceptions himself where any form of mental illness could be eligible for MAID?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member said they do not want to make it political, but then talked about a former prime minister, spending and other things. I am not making it political. I am reading the words from a psychiatrist who has more experience than the member, or any member of the government, will ever have on this issue. He is outlining a litany of concerns and how they went down the wrong path on this.

If their investments in health care have been so incredible, why are the premiers screaming that health care is in a terrible state of disarray? That happened under his government. If it is spending more money, it is not doing it well. That is the problem.

It is not political. I am begging the government to get it right on behalf of Canadians who suffer from mental health issues. They need the help.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I share my colleague's concerns. That is why I voted against the Senate amendment to Bill C-7 in the previous Parliament. I have been a member of the special joint committee on medical assistance in dying. It is very clear that Bill C-39 is necessary. We do need to have that delay in place.

The concepts we were struggling with at committee were individual autonomy versus protection of the vulnerable. I would like to get my colleague's thoughts on those concepts. What is his understanding of the capacity of a person who may have a mental disorder to make an informed consent decision and their own internal understanding of what they are going through?

This is a genuine question. I am genuinely curious as to what the member thinks about it because this is a really important debate that our country is having.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think that this issue is so complicated that it is incredibly difficult for members of Parliament to try to set those parameters without extensive study.

I want to go back to the figure that was cited by the professor where he said that 47% of the predictions of people's mental health issue being irremediable are wrong. We look at that stat that 50% of the time they are wrong, and if someone with an irremediable mental health issue goes for MAID, 50% of those predictions are wrong, so the possibility is that 50% of the people getting medically assisted death could have had treatment and got better. That is a statistic that every member in this chamber should be haunted by until we get this right.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for Dufferin—Caledon for being extremely open and honest about his own experience of deep pain and darkness. I also want to keep everything with respect to this issue as non-partisan as possible.

We have a year. Bill C-39 is going to pass. I have not heard any souls in this place say they are not going to vote for it. What do we do in the coming year? What would the hon. member recommend?