House of Commons Hansard #155 of the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was pricing.

Topics

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to thank my colleague, the hon. member from British Columbia, a fellow member of the FOPO committee. I always like to work with him.

Since 2015, there has been an attack on the oil and gas industry in Canada by the hon. member's party. I am sure he is ashamed of it. We have oil and gas to produce here that could bring down inflation.

We need to produce more of what money buys, including oil. That would take on these dictators all over the world. If we were to compete with them in their own market, that would be how we bring them to their knees and help our own people at the same time.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Madam Speaker, I salute my colleague and thank him for his impassioned speech. He is also known to be very passionate at the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, of which we are both members. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to work with him.

I understand the position of my colleague, who is distraught by the carbon tax and seems to be obsessed with it. I would like him to comment on the Bay du Nord exploration project.

The poor got poorer and the already rich oil companies got even richer during the pandemic, and now oil exploration will be allowed in Bay du Nord.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Madam Speaker, even though Newfoundland and Labrador right now is not a have province, we are still paying into the equalization formula here.

Bay du Nord is going to produce the cleanest oil in the world. It is going to allow Newfoundland and Labrador to give some equalization payments to Quebec so it can help the poor. It is a great privilege for a small province such as Newfoundland and Labrador, with a population of just over 500,000, to be able to produce our oil, get royalties from it and be prosperous, while reducing dollars for dictators and helping the people of Quebec enjoy some of the royalties we get from our oil.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Madam Speaker, in the last election, the Conservatives had a plan for climate change. This was the plan: They were going to charge Canadians who purchased fossil fuels a tax. It gets better. They were going to take that tax, put it in a special savings account and only allow Canadians to spend it on certain things, such as electric bicycles, solar panels and such. It seems like an odd policy for a party that, first of all, is struggling to decide whether to take the issue of climate change seriously and, second, espouses to be the party of freedom.

My question is not whether the member believes that this is a priority for Canada. My question is whether he understands the gravity of the situation that we face when it comes to global climate change. Does the member understand the issue?

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Madam Speaker, I would just like to say that my hon. colleague from Tobique—Mactaquac is going to take over after me here shortly.

Yes, I understand. What we propose to do is this: We are going to use the technology to capture the carbon and reinject it. We do not think that cutting a quarter of a per cent of the world's carbon, produced by the largest country in the world, is going to save British Columbia from atmospheric rivers.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Madam Speaker, It is an honour to rise in the House today to speak to this.

There is an ancient saying that has been with us, has withstood the test of time, and has been tested time and time again and found to be true. Leaders should follow this advice, and it is that we should all be quick to listen and slow to speak. Oftentimes, it would seem in this House we maybe put the reverse in action and are maybe quick to speak and slow to listen, but Canadians are speaking. They are speaking loudly and clearly. I think they are all wondering whether we are listening.

It seems that right now the direction the current government is taking is out of touch with the needs of ordinary Canadians, who are frustrated, growing ever more anxious and wondering how they are going to make ends meet. As time keeps marching on, the bills keep rising, their taxes keep rising, the cost of living keeps soaring, interest rates are rising and inflationary pressures are abounding, Canadians are wondering whether those who represent them are listening to their cries and hearing what they are saying.

I rise today to say that here on this side of the House we are hearing what they are saying and we are going to take action. That is why we proposed this bill to axe the carbon tax and make life more affordable for everyday Canadians from coast to coast to coast.

Too many Canadians are feeling absolutely disconnected from those who represent them. The current government is tremendous in the art of virtue signalling and verbosity, and is excellent at throwing out grandiose phrases about how it is going to turn back the tides and heal the planet, and that somehow if we tax it enough it will go away. However, when we get beyond the “tax solves all things” approach, we get down to the realities of where most Canadians are living, and that is how they keep the heat on, how they fill up their cars and how they keep groceries in the cupboard. Seniors are thinking they cannot take any more pressure on their bottom line when their income is fixed and their costs keep soaring. The question many Canadians have is whether the government hears them and whether it will respond.

The government has a tremendous opportunity to take that classic absolutely amazing first step by supporting this bill and saying, because of the duress Canadians are under, the pressure they are feeling and the overwhelming soaring costs they are facing, it is time to axe the carbon tax and put an arrest on it so Canadians can start heating their homes without feeling that undue pressure they are feeling at this time.

The Liberal government's plan to triple the carbon tax is not an environment plan; it is a tax plan. It is designed to bail out a government that has overspent and lived beyond its means, yet the Liberals send out the grandiose phrase that they are going to stop hurricanes and cause all kinds of wonderful things to happen, if people only pay more taxes. It is not reality. It is, in fact, very expensive virtue signalling.

What Canadians need to know is who is listening to their practical needs in this time of economic crisis for their households. Grocery bills are going up, gas is going up and home heating is going up, yet we get up and talk about how we are going to increase the tax until we feel better on the inside about what is happening internationally.

I think Canadians want practical solutions. They want a government that responds to their needs, and right now they are in need. They need a government that responds to that need, and we are here to make sure their voices are heard and represented. That is why we brought forward this motion in response to their cry. The reality is that this plan to triple the carbon tax will only increase the cost of gas, groceries and home heating for citizens all across the nation.

Rural Canadians are disproportionately affected by these taxes. I represent an area that is filled with small towns. They are rural communities, where people have to drive to work. They have to drive to get their kids to sports. It is not a matter of luxury. They cannot jump on transit; there is no transit. They have to drive in order to live and function. There are producers and farmers in my area, whom I hear from, and their input costs are soaring. People are wondering why grocery bills are going up. It is not the farmers' faults. It is overtaxation and the burdens and cumbersome regulations that have bogged down the best of Canadian society.

I think what I hear from the farmers, producers and harvesters across the region is to let the farmers farm, let the producers produce, let the growers grow, let them get back to work, so they can do what they love to do, and to stop being on their backs.

If members hear what I am hearing, Canadians are saying that enough is enough. We can be responsible environmental stewards, which is a priority for this side of the House, and it can be done through technology and innovation, not taxation. We can do it by getting innovative. We even have proof from a neighbouring jurisdiction.

While we were virtue signalling and signing accords all over the place, our carbon emissions were going up. We ranked 57th out of 60 nations at tackling climate change emissions, yet the jurisdiction closest to us cut its greenhouse gas emissions while expanding its energy sector, which is amazing. How did that happen? It was transitioning from coal to natural gas and utilizing that. Canada has an abundance of that type of supply. We have nuclear innovations, all kinds of hydroelectric power and some amazing innovations. We can be a pro-environment and pro-sustainable planet and develop our resources out of the best environmental regulations and regimes on the planet. It is a good-news story.

Let us stand up for Canadian energy and Canadian resources. Instead of punishing those who produce our wealth, let us help them up. They are not looking for a handout, but for someone to say that the current government understands what they are doing. We can pull the country out of the economic malaise if we enable our private sector to do what it does best: innovate, produce and get to work.

We hear so much about this, and I would tell members that the carbon tax has got to be probably the most extremely expensive and ineffective virtue signal for environmentalism in the history of the planet. It has cost Canadians more and produced no results. We heard testimony at the natural resources committee from the environment commissioner of Canada who was asked if there is a metric that can tell us how much carbon has been taken out of Canada's environment as a result of the carbon tax, which has been in place for over a decade in some jurisdictions in this country, including British Columbia. The answer was that we have no such metric as of yet. Therefore, the landmark signature piece of environmental legislation from the current government does not even have a metric that can tell Canadians how much carbon has been reduced as a result of its implementation. If we were to ask them, I would say that Canadians, and those in my region in particular, would tell the government there is no evidence of its effectiveness, other than its diminishing effect on their pocketbooks, and would ask it to scrap the tax and get rid of it.

Our country has the fifth-largest supply of farmland and we continue to hinder farmers from doing what they do. We never give them credit for the carbon sequestration happening with respect to our agricultural lands. We do not give our energy producers credit for using innovation to make energy cleaner. We never talk about the amazing stuff that is happening in Saskatchewan with respect to carbon sequestration and carbon capture. We have an amazing story to tell, but instead the government brings out another tax and then says it is going to triple it. That is the last thing Canadians want to hear. It is not effective.

What would be effective is if the government responded to the cries of Canadians from coast to coast who are hurting and whose pocketbooks are dwindling by saying that it hears the opposition, that it is a good idea, and that it is honest enough to admit that this approach is not working so it will scrap the tax and give Canadians a break. That would be amazing news and a tremendous sign of unity in this House.

I fully expect that Canadians will be voting for us to axe the tax. It would be an amazing accomplishment for all Canadians. I am sure they would cheer it. It would have a great effect.

I would ask members to reflect on this expression. I have to wind down and conclude. Pardon me for getting excited, but this is an area of passion. There is an old saying in leadership circles that goes, “Many are those who curse the wind, but real leaders adjust the sails.” We have been cursing the winds, the changes in climate and all of the stuff that is happening, and somehow we have convinced ourselves that if we tax it it will go away. I would say, rather than cursing and taxing the wind, how about we adjust the sails and say we should adapt. Let us help the world's environment by getting more Canadian-produced clean energy and food on the markets and help the planet become greener and cleaner. We will all do better. Join us in axing this tax.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Winnipeg South Manitoba

Liberal

Terry Duguid LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Environment and Climate Change

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his passion on this particular topic, but he does not have a lot of facts. I wonder if the hon. member knows that last year's price on pollution went up by 2.2¢. Does the member know that 95% of the increase in the cost of gas was because of inflation caused by international events and various margins in the various provinces, and that eight out of 10 families get more money back than they pay at the pump?

If the hon. member has heard the cries of affordability of Canadians, why did that side of the House vote against rental support, dental support and the Canada child benefit, which has lifted 400,000 people out of poverty? They voted against seniors, who he talked about. We increased the OAS by 10%, and he voted against it.

Why does the hon. member not adjust his sails?

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Madam Speaker, one thing is for sure. In all the time that I have been in office in the region that I represent, I have never had one citizen knock on my door, call me or send me an email to say that, whatever I do, I should raise people's taxes so they can feel better about the environment. I have never had one constituent say that, if we double, triple or quadruple the carbon tax, that person would feel so much better.

However, I have had numerous constituents reach out to my office, some in tears, saying they went into the grocery this week and they do not know how they can afford to keep going with prices soaring the way they are. They would love for me to go home this weekend and say we just axed the carbon tax. They would be so happy to hear that response. I hope the Liberals will help these people.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Madam Speaker, we have just witnessed an amazing show put on by the party next to us. I worked a long time in the arts, so I could really appreciate the show put on by our colleague and his fellow members.

However, a show is superficial. What I really want to know is how my colleague thinks he can control the damage caused by hurricanes and control the rise in illnesses caused by pollution, using nothing more than reductions obtained by abolishing the carbon tax.

Will it be enough, given the total cost of climate change to society?

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to respond to my colleague from Quebec's question.

I will simply say this, and the answer is very clear. It is in technology and innovation. I believe Canadians have the best environmental practices for extraction of energy and utilization of energy, as well as for farm production and growing our food, of anywhere in the world and in comparable jurisdictions. We have a great news story, and the more we can replace dictator oil, and the more we can replace oil from regimes that do not have near the environmental regulations that Canada does, the bigger the favour we are doing for the world's environment.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague and I agree on one thing, and that is that people are most definitely struggling right now. I can be on board with us identifying and moving forward with practical solutions, such as those the member was speaking of.

I am wondering if the member could explain why, when only certain provinces would benefit from this motion, he would not support us removing GST from all home heating, so we could look at, as he says, cutting a break for those who are struggling most.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Madam Speaker, the removal of the tax would benefit all Canadians from coast to coast to coast because every Canadian is affected by the carbon tax. Every time they go to the grocery store, the sticker shock from what they are seeing on the grocery shelves is in part a result of the carbon tax, because everything that is trucked, shipped and hauled is affected by the carbon tax, in every province and every jurisdiction in this country.

We need to take this measure and cut the tax so people can keep the heat on in their homes.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Madam Speaker, if everyone agrees, I will share my time with the member for Perth—Wellington

What we are hearing right now is rather frustrating and sad. It kind of makes a person want to bang their head against the wall or slit their wrists in despair. As I said earlier, there is a major worldwide crisis right now, the climate crisis. It is huge and it is important, and we talk about it every day.

Not long ago, the entire world met in Egypt to try to find solutions. According to what the UN chief told the entire globe, we need to do something and quickly. The situation is urgent. We need to take action. The major countries need to take action and make changes to the system so that we can change course. People are going to die. They are going to be forced into poverty. There are going to be natural disasters, floods and hurricanes, and they will happen more and more often. The UN chief is not the only one saying that. That is what is being said by thousands and thousands of scientists who write detailed reports that we can read. These things are most definitely going to happen.

We now know that, 50 years ago, scientists were already predicting what is happening today. We know because we are living it right now.

Canada is a G7 country. The party that is in government says it has a plan. Every day, during oral question period, the Liberals stand up and declare that they are going to do this and that. They talk about targets they are going to meet and they say that this or that is going to happen. However, that is not working.

The plan by my friends across the way has never worked. Earlier, I presented the numbers showing that nothing the Liberals have done is working. Canada is the worst per capita greenhouse gas emitter in the G20. Despite all the fine speeches, all the interventions, all the reports, all the scientists and studies in committee, Canada produces more greenhouse gas emissions per capita than any other G20 economy. Canada is the only G7 country whose emissions have increased since 2015.

What happened in 2015? Coincidentally, the Liberals came to power in 2015. The Minister of Environment and Climate Change is Mr. Équiterre, Mr. Environment. He is a star of the environmental left who told himself that he would make his stand in a G7 country, take action and effect change from the inside. However, the situation is only getting worse.

The Liberals constantly repeat that they are taking action, but they are not getting results. Today, my Conservative friends, who are not pleased with this action that is leading nowhere, have announced that they will do even less. They propose to get rid of it all, to do nothing and to never intervene.

I have never gotten a clear answer to a question that I have asked my Conservative friends many times: What will they do? This is not the first time that they have introduced such a motion. It is groundhog day with the Conservatives, who constantly propose cancelling the carbon tax. They always talk about the plan to triple, triple, triple the carbon tax. We cannot take it anymore, they have to stop.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Seriously, you keep repeating yourselves. This is not easy for us. It is hard on the brain. Hearing the same things over and over again will drive anyone a little crazy. We have been hearing members say “triple, triple, triple” for six months now. At some point, enough is enough.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

This is not theatrical production, and I cannot respond to members who call out to me. In theory, this is a speech—

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

The hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean on a point of order.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Madam Speaker, I understand you were speaking with someone else, but there are members of the Conservative Party talking to my colleague while he is making his speech.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

Yes, but the hon. member answered.

I ask everyone in the House to respect the person who has the floor and not to argue during that time. Those who want to have discussions should leave.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Madam Speaker, so, I was trying to engage in constructive dialogue with my Conservative friends. I was saying that, no matter how many opposition days we spend talking about getting rid of the carbon tax, we will never come up with anything resembling a solution.

Earlier, the hon. member for Louis-Saint-Laurent, whom I like very much, was asked a question. What would the Conservatives do? What is their plan? We know they want to axe the carbon tax, but what would they do instead? This is a major emergency situation.

We all know this country switches back and forth between two governing parties. We spend 10 or 15 years with the red party, then 10 or 15 years with the blue party. Sooner or later, the blue party will be back in power. In the meantime, the orange party plays a supporting role over there. That is how the Canadian system works. Sooner or later, the blue party will be back in power with no plan, no idea what to do about the greatest crisis of our time.

As I said earlier, this is both sad and disheartening. It is enough to make anyone want to bash their head against a wall. No wonder people in Quebec want to leave this country. No wonder we have 32 seats here. The red party and the blue party would love to get their hands on our seats in Quebec, but they are not taking action.

They are not taking meaningful action on issues that are important to Quebeckers. A large majority of Quebeckers agree with me. People come to my office, people from organizations like Mothers Step In and La Planète s'invite in Longueuil. I meet young people and mothers in my riding who are worried about the future of humanity. They come to see me. They say we have to do something. They ask me to take action, to tell Parliament that we must take action. That is what I am doing. They have mandated me to do so. I am here to tell the so-called decision-makers in the government and the official opposition that they must take action. Something must be done. It is truly appalling that they have no plan to deal with the biggest challenge of our time.

The Bloc Québécois has solutions. We have asked the government what needs to be done. First, Canada needs to stop investing in fossil fuels. That is absolutely essential. My Conservative friends are always saying that we need to invest in fossil fuels. It is unbelievable that the Liberals outdo even the Conservatives when it comes to supporting oil companies. I am not joking. The Liberals are so useless that there are environmentalists out there who miss the Conservatives. We are talking about an annual investment of $8.5 billion in fossil fuels.

How much social housing could be built for $8.5 billion? How much housing could be built to help people who need it? There is a major housing crisis in Quebec and in Canada. I do not know how many times I have talked about this in the House.

The Liberals promised they would stop investing in fossil fuels in 2023. I remember asking them about that on December 11. I brought up their promise that investments would drop to zero in 2023, which was 20 days away at that point. It was time to start thinking about it. Now it is 2023, and I have heard nothing about stopping investments. This is one of the first measures that must be implemented. This money must be invested in renewable energy. We need to make a radical shift. Quebec is ready to do that. We have Hydro-Québec. When the company is not being spied on by China, it makes very good electric batteries. They are working on electric motors. We need to put our money there.

What could we do if we put the $8.5 billion we send to ExxonMobil into other things? That company made $75 billion in profits last year. Those poor people. Seriously though, we must take this money and invest it in the energies of the future. That is what we need to do.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, listening to the member from the Bloc, one would think that all we need to do is click our heels and the transition would be complete and there would be no more fossil fuels being used in Canada.

The member needs to recognize that there is a transition period. There have been some investments. We work very closely, for example, with the NDP provincial government in British Columbia on the LNG. It is about the principle of putting a price on pollution, as governments around the world have recognized the true value of that. It appears that the Conservative Party today has made it very clear that it opposes that principle.

I am wondering if the member could provide his thoughts in terms of the principle of the price on pollution and the benefits to society.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Madam Speaker, the carbon tax is a very good measure. However, it needs to be increased far more drastically than it has been so far.

I think the UN was recommending that the tax be set at $200 per tonne now. Based on what we are hearing, it will be about $170 per tonne in 2030. That is much too late. It is two minutes past midnight right now. It is no longer one minute to midnight. We must do something drastic.

My colleague's intervention makes me think of what my Conservative colleagues have been saying all day. They want to have it both ways. We have passed that point. It is after midnight.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Madam Speaker, at a time when the planet has to reduce its carbon emissions, oil companies are making record profits. Canadian oil and gas companies are forecasted to make a record-breaking $147 billion in 2022 alone.

I want to read a short quote from UN Secretary-General António Guterres. He said the fossil fuel industry is “feasting on...subsidies and windfall profits while households' budgets shrink and our planet burns.” He said that we need to hold the industry and its enablers to account. He said, “I am calling on all developed economies to tax the windfall profits of fossil fuel companies.”

New Democrats believe we should be doing that. I wonder if my hon. colleague agrees.

Opposition Motion—Carbon TaxBusiness of SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Madam Speaker, I completely agree. I mentioned it in my speech. As I am not an expert, I cannot say how much we should tax those companies. We can see their profits are indecent.

Those industries are still making bloated profits from what is happening in the world at this time. We must take this money and invest it for our children. The future of the planet is at stake. There is money there. It is indecent. We must invest it for the future.