House of Commons Hansard #181 of the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was aircraft.

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Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Madam Speaker, we could get into debate about whether socialism is really something that provides wealth to its citizens or just takes away from its citizens.

On this side of the House we really believe in private capital and a capitalist society that has been beneficial to Canadians. Its powerful paycheques could provide wealth to Canadians, instead of having the government run deficit after deficit until Canadians are broke. Certainly this country is broken.

We really believe in the private sector, and that Canadians can and will create good jobs, great ideas and provide powerful paycheques for their own citizens, for the people here in Canada. Conservatives will always stand on the side of those citizens.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

April 20th, 2023 / 12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Madam Speaker, my colleague on the other side mentioned the Avro Arrow project several times. The project was scrapped by Mr. Diefenbaker, but the initial push to sideline it began under St. Laurent's Liberal government.

The current Liberal government has also ignored an airline that wanted to develop the aviation sector further by supplying aircraft. Instead, the government turned to a U.S. company that played a role in the demise of the Avro Arrow.

What are my colleague's thoughts on the matter?

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Madam Speaker, I agree. The whole point is we need to look at Canadian companies and Canada's role in contributing to the aerospace sector, not only in Canada but in North America.

We have a lot of great companies that already contribute to some of the procurement projects that are happening in the U.S. Let us face it, there are a lot of procurement projects coming from the U.S. that we can contribute to, that we should be playing a greater role in, not just a small role but a bigger role.

The government's role is to ensure that we have the research and development, and to ensure that we have the funding for first-stage innovation. Then, it is the private sector's role to develop and commercialize that next sector, so they could carry it on. That is what we want to happen. That is what we are going to have under a Conservative government.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to follow such a great speech from my colleague from Bay of Quinte.

I would remind those watching at home and my constituents what we are discussing today. Today we are discussing a report done by the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology of the House of Commons, entitled “Development and Support of the Aerospace Industry”. It was tabled in this Parliament in June 2022, but is actually a study that spans two Parliaments. It was started in the last Parliament before the last election when the now Conservative leader was the vice-chair of the committee and then continued in this Parliament after COVID. It is quite a span of time, but affects a lot of the tone and position of where the industry is.

I should start by saying that we are all mentioning aerospace companies within our regions or ridings. There is a company in my riding, the beautiful UNESCO heritage town called Lunenburg, which everyone may have heard of. The company is called Stelia North America, which makes parts for the Airbus 737 Max and the F-35 aircraft. Unfortunately, because of the dithering by the government on the purchasing of the aircraft that it said it was not going to buy and now has ended up buying, a lot of jobs were lost in that interim period in Lunenburg that it now has to try get back since the government is now going to buy the aircraft it said it was not going to buy.

It is important to understand what has happened to this industry. There is a really interesting section in this report, on page 6, that says, “Canada’s aerospace sector had fallen from the fifth-largest in the world in the 1980s to the ninth largest.” It goes on to say, “Canada was once the fourth-largest aircraft manufacturer but it has dropped to the 12th”. Recommendation 5 in the report has been mentioned before, which talks about having an aerospace strategy. There were aerospace strategies in previous governments that led us to be a much larger player in the world than we are now, but in the last eight years of the Liberal government, we have not had any strategies, and that is what this unanimous report points out in recommendation 5. I would point out that the Liberals agreed with this, too.

After eight years, what has been the Liberal strategy? The Liberal strategy was to bring in a luxury tax on aircraft. That was their strategy because they have never met a tax they did not like. In fact, the Minister of Finance said, when she introduced it last year, that this would make the wealthy pay their fair share. However, the reality is that when we look at the numbers and the performance of the industry, the cost of this tax is actually being borne by the workers in the aerospace industry, not by the corporations. I will go through that in a few minutes.

There was a report done by an economist out of Montreal, Jacques Roy, who words for HEC, an economic think tank in Montreal. He talks about that tax, which was introduced on September 1, 2022, by the Liberals, and the impact it had. The tax revenues expected from the new aircraft tax he says are negligible. A May 2022 Parliamentary Budget Officer report estimated the tax on cars, planes and boats, which were all included in that tax, would raise $163 million in 2023-24, but only an insignificant $9 million of this total was expected to come from the aircraft tax. The PBO also projected an annual reduction in aircraft sales, as a result of that tax, of $30 million. Obviously, the impact is much greater on jobs and the economy than the tax benefits the government.

That tax also affects the reputation of our industry. The PBO cautioned that estimates were qualified by several uncertainties and unknown behavioural responses to the tax. There are always behavioural responses to taxes when they are brought in. This economist did a deeper dive into the impacts of that tax, and I will share with the House what the findings of that were.

It has a qualification that it has to be 90% business use in order to be exempted from the tax. That has proven to be unworkable because the jets that companies like Bombardier sell are not used by that company 100% of the time. Because of the way those jets are utilized, the qualification does not apply to the businesses. Commentators have noted that the 90% threshold is harsh in comparison with the primary use standard; in other countries that have done this, this is usually only 50%. This is commonly used in the United States and Europe as an alternative source of determining whether the tax applies to the jets.

The PBO's research expressed a concern about the narrowness of the exception. Although the tax targets aircraft sold to private individuals for nonbusiness use, it also applies in practice to situations involving mixed use; that is, for some business use and some personal use where it cannot be confidently determined that the 90% test has been met. In this regard, it is important to understand the unique practices of the aerospace sector. Buyers of business jets and helicopters usually outsource the management, servicing and maintenance of these aircraft to management and leasing companies. Even owners who acquire a jet principally for business purposes, and do not intend for it to be used for personal purposes, will face considerable difficulty in determining whether that 90% test applies. They will ask leasing companies to rent the aircraft out to other customers when they are not using them.

This is where the issue comes into play. Canadian-based leasing companies may rent these aircraft to U.S.-based charter brokers. They, in turn, may charter the aircraft for their own clients. The person who is subrenting or leasing it may use the aircraft for business or personal use. Very limited information, if any, is available to the owner regarding the other uses of the aircraft in these circumstances, partially because of privacy laws. It may therefore be quite challenging, if not impossible, to determine whether the purpose of the trips taken in such cases is business or personal. That makes the determination of whether the 90% test has been met especially difficult.

According to the PBO's interviews in doing this research, the introduction of the luxury tax has already had a huge impact. The negative reaction from clients has translated into lost sales for Canadian aerospace manufacturers and their supply chain. It is estimated that the business aircraft segment experienced a drop of 8% in sales in 2022 because of the tax. This represents roughly $480 million in lost sales. That figure is significantly higher than the $30 million projected by the Parliamentary Budget Officer. He estimated that this drop in sales would result in the loss of approximately 750 direct jobs in Canada. The estimate is based on the number of direct jobs required to produce the aircraft for which sales have been lost. Personal income taxes paid by just these individuals exceed the annual revenues expected by the government from the luxury tax.

For helicopters, research indicates that private individuals are likely to postpone or abandon the purchase of approximately five new helicopters per year or to buy a used model. This will result in the loss of 15 full-time jobs and lost annual salaries of approximately $1.3 million.

The impact of lost sales also ripples down through the aerospace industry and supply chain. For business jets alone, it is estimated that the loss of 750 direct jobs will cause the loss of an additional 1,200 jobs in the industry's Canadian supply chain. The PBO estimates that these workers' personal income taxes at the federal level alone will be approximately $14.3 million.

In my view, these figures are fairly conservative. They would be much higher if we were to add the figures for all of the indirect and induced job losses in the industry. These figures also underestimate the impact of the maintenance, repair and overhaul activities on other small and medium-sized enterprises not interviewed in the course of the research.

I am running out of time, so I will just say that the strategy called for in this report is a strategy to tax. That is the only one we have after eight years with the Liberal government. That is where the government goes to, and the result will be massive job and economic losses for our country.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, that is not true. Through procurements, contracts and the enhancement of skills and during the pandemic, we have seen direct and indirect supports to Canada's aerospace industry. The government has consistently, from day one, recognized the importance of the industry and invested appropriately and accordingly.

What surprises me to a certain degree is what the Conservative member is saying about having a luxury tax applied to the wealthiest. Many Canadians believe in paying taxes but say that it should be fair. It is just like when we brought in a tax increase for Canada's wealthiest 1%, which the Conservatives voted against.

What does the Conservative Party of Canada have against Canada's wealthiest 1% having to pay a fair share of taxes?

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Speaker, what the Conservative Party is against is taxes that kill jobs and kill industry, which is the habit of the government. I just went through a speech saying that over 750 jobs had already been lost in the aerospace and jet-manufacturing industries because of the government. If that is support for an industry, I do not want support for anything I do in the future.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague and fellow vice-chair of the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology for his powerful speech today.

I would like to know whether he would agree, as per recommendation 2, that the government put in place significant financial incentives for basic research, to develop a greener aircraft and expertise in the energy transition of this industry through green technologies.

I would add to that the importance of having predictable funding. Predictability is absolutely essential for this industry. There needs to be a national aerospace policy that will allow us to ensure sustainable funding for the next 15 or 20 years, because that is how many years of R and D it takes to build an aircraft.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Speaker, I enjoy sitting on the industry committee with the member. We are doing good, collegial work together on it.

On that particular issue, I absolutely agree. Part of the challenge of what happened when the government created the strategic investment fund, or SIF, program is that it collapsed other tax credits for specific industries to help with the very issue the member is talking about. That issue is that the government lost the sectoral focus in how to support the aerospace industry on issues like greening the engines and the fuel usage of aircraft in Canada. This is another thing the government has done to hurt the aerospace industry.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1 p.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Madam Speaker, in this place, I find it is often our goal to disagree without being disagreeable. I believe this member often does that in an extraordinary way, and I respect him for that.

However, I do have comments directed to the many lengthy speeches the Conservatives have made today and the great appetite they have for the companies that are seeking federal funds. They often talk in this place about how evil socialism is or how evil it is to help regular, everyday people in this country. However, when companies come to the table asking for money, whether it is big oil companies, big banks, or in this case, aerospace mega-companies, all of a sudden, they are for it.

Whether in tax breaks or other means of revenue generation, it is like coming to the government trough. How does the member reconcile the fact that his party is so willing to support massive corporations but does not allow that same opportunity for single moms, persons with disabilities or those who need the government's support most?

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Speaker, I will first answer the part about why we do not support socialism. It is because it has failed everywhere and reduced economies to totalitarian regimes. Everywhere socialism has been tried as a government entity, we have seen less freedom. That is why we do not support it. We think freedom creates opportunity, and the capitalist system produces the opportunity and the profit incentive that moves—

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I must interrupt the member.

The hon. member for Drummond on a point of order.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

Madam Speaker, the interpreters are saying that there is a lot of interference when my colleague speaks. I do not know whether it is because there is a device or a phone near the microphone, but the interpreters have indicated several times now that there is frequent interference.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I appreciate the point of order.

I also mentioned yesterday that it is very important for members who are speaking or asking questions to make sure that they put their phones on silent or somewhere other than their lecterns, because the microphones definitely pick up sound.

This is hard on interpreters, and we want to make sure they can work safely.

The hon. member has 30 seconds to finish his response.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Speaker, I think I dealt with the socialism part well.

On the capitalist side, the profit incentive creates invention, which is what moves society forward. That is why the member has an iPhone or Samsung phone in his pocket that he uses to help him do his job. That is why he has a Microsoft Surface laptop from the House of Commons, a nice thin computer, to do his job. Those things are all inventions created by a capitalism profit motive.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from South Shore—St. Margarets for his comment with respect to Liberal government support. Industry is always saying, “With a government like that, who needs enemies?”

He touched upon the so-called luxury tax. The Aerospace Industries Association of Canada figures that it is going to cost about 3,000 jobs. When asked about this, the finance minister said that such losses are “negligible”. What government has ever been so out of touch that a finance minister tells 3,000 people in the middle class, who are earning good wages, that their job loss is negligible? This is what we have seen from the government again and again. It attacks businesses and regular, everyday Canadians for ideological reasons.

The government again stated, with respect to the 3,000 lost jobs, that the wealthy have to pay their fair share. With the current government, every time it asks people to pay their fair share, the middle class and the little guy bear the brunt of its incompetence. We do not need a national strategy for aerospace; we need a national strategy to replace the incompetent, out-of-touch Liberal government.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

Is the House ready for the question?

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

The question is on the motion.

If a member of a recognized party present in the House wishes that the motion be carried or carried on division or wishes to request a recorded division, I would invite them to rise and indicate it to the Chair.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, it is with great pride and enthusiasm that I recommend that the House unanimously adopt this report in which, for the first time, the House of Commons, an authority of the Government of Canada, will recommend the adoption of a national aerospace strategy.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

Is it agreed?

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Industry and TechnologyCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

(Motion agreed to)

HazarasPetitionsRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Madam Speaker, I have been waiting all day to present a petition on behalf of my constituents. They are calling on the Government of Canada to recognize the ongoing genocide and persecution by the Taliban of the Hazara ethnic minority in Afghanistan. They are calling on the government to prioritize Hazaras coming to Canada as part of its target of 40,000 people by the end of the year.

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand at this time.

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

1:10 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

Is that agreed?