Debates of May 29th, 2023

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2023-24

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Mr. Chair, many of the investments in our budget increased Canada's economic capacity and increased the supply side. That is helping to keep inflation and jobs on track.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, I will ask the minister about numbers that maybe she does know.

Could she tell us what the debt-to-GDP ratio was in 2021-22?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Mr. Chair, Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio went up during COVID, and that was natural. We did an important job in supporting Canadians and the Canadian economy. It was the right thing—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

The hon. member.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, it was 42.4% and this year it is 43.5%. Does the minister agree that 43.5% is bigger than 42.4%?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Mr. Chair, I believe that the member opposite was a staffer in the Harper government, so let us talk about the 2008 recession and the incredibly slow and painful recovery Canada made because of a government that refused to invest in Canada's recovery. I have some numbers there and I am happy to share them in future questions.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, she will have plenty of time to sit on this side of the House and ask questions, but during that recession, we were the last ones in and the first ones out. She will remember that.

Can the minister tell us how much it cost to service the debt in 2021-22? I want just a number. She is the finance minister.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Mr. Chair, I am the finance minister, and I remember that it took GDP four months longer to recover following the 2008 recession than it took following the COVID recession. That was because of smart investments by our government to support Canadians.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, it was $24.5 billion.

Can she tell us, in numbers, how much it is today to service the debt?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Mr. Chair, let me share some numbers that really matter. It took 27 months for jobs to recover from the 2008 recession. It only took 21 months for jobs to recover from the COVID recession. Again, it is proof of our government's economic—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

The hon. member.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, the minister does not believe that the amount she pays to service the debt is important, and every Canadian should hear that today. It is $43.9 billion. That number has doubled.

I will ask her one last question, and I want just a number. How much is the payment for the Canada health transfer that this federal government makes? I want an approximation, not even a full number.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Mr. Chair, I am going to share a really precise number that matters to Canadians. It took 110 months following the 2008 recession for unemployment rates to recover. We recovered in one-fifth the time.

We are focused on Canadians, Canadian jobs and economic growth. We understand government action was necessary to support Canadians, and it has worked. That is something the Conservatives still do not understand.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Mr. Chair, the amount that I was looking for from the finance minister was about $45 billion. It will cost $43.9 billion to service our debt, which has doubled since last year, and it cost $45 billion in the Canada health transfer to keep Canadians safe, a number the minister does not think matters. It costs almost as much to service the debt as we pay for health care in this country, and that is shameful.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Mr. Chair, could the hon. minister tell us this? Is it not a fact that between February 2020 and January 2022, the government issued approximately $471 billion of debt?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Mr. Chair, I believe the member opposite is another former Harper staffer, so I want to remind him of the incredibly poor recovery his government made from the 2008 recession. We learned from that experience—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

The hon. member for Simcoe North.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Mr. Chair, it is true. It is a fact. The government issued $471 billion of debt between February 2020 and January 2022.

Could the hon. minister tell us how much of that issued debt is maturing in under three years?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Mr. Chair, what is a fact is that it took four months longer for real GDP to recover following the 2008 recession than it took following the COVID recession, even though COVID caused much deeper economic harm. We invested in Canadians, and we are proud of it because it worked.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Mr. Chair, 52% of all of the debt issued in that time frame was for under three years. In fact, only 10% of that debt was issued with 10 years or more maturity.

How is it possible that the government says its debt management strategy is fiscally responsible when at the lowest interest rates, it financed most of that debt in the short term, which is all going to roll over in the next two years?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Mr. Chair, as I said, the member opposite was a staffer during the failed Harper government that engineered a very slow recovery from the 2008 recession. It took 27 months for jobs to recover. It took only 21 months for jobs to recover following the COVID recession, which was much deeper because of the historic shock of COVID. That is because of a government that did not understand the need to invest and support Canadians. Yes, we took on—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

The hon. member.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Mr. Chair, it is obviously clear that the minister is ashamed of the government's record in choosing to issue short-term debt when rates were so low.

Could the minister tell the House and Canadians what the average interest rate is that the government expects to pay on the debt that is maturing and rolling over in the next two years?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Mr. Chair, the shameful record is of these Conservatives, who still have not learned the lesson of the incredibly slow and painful recovery from 2008. We learned the lesson. We knew we had to invest to support Canadians. Yes, we had to spend money to do it, but the results show it was worth it. It took 110 months—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

The hon. member.