Debates of May 29th, 2023

Strengthening Environmental Protection for a Healthier Canada Act

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Madam Speaker, I would request that there be a standing vote.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Pursuant to order made Thursday, June 23, 2022, the division stands deferred until Tuesday, May 30, at the expiry of the time provided for Oral Questions.

The hon. parliamentary secretary to the government House leader.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, I suspect that if you were to canvass the House, you might find the will to call it 6:59 p.m. at this time, so that we can continue with discussion and debate.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

Is it agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

Correctional Service of Canada

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am rising to follow up on a question that I raised on May 12, before the break. On a number of occasions over the course of the past year and a half, I have raised the issue of the prison farm at Joyceville. There is a proposal to expand it to allow for the development of a goat farm.

Although the government insists on denying that this is what the expansion will entail, it also insists on following through on plans to build, among other things, a goat barn and a very large septic waste facility. These would be the right size to accommodate the herd of 1,200 goats the government has been talking about having there. The purpose of the goat farm is to create infant formula, which will be exported to China under a public-private partnership in which CORCAN would be involved.

There are a number of problems with this; I raised one of them on May 12. I pointed out that there are obvious human rights issues associated with having inmates being paid substantially less than the market wage to produce and export product. This goes against our International Labour Organization obligations.

There are issues associated with the entire for-profit model of the prison system. This is not merely in conflict with the other goals that our corrections system has but is also almost a joke, and in fact is a joke, given the colossal amount of money that the for-profit operation at CORCAN manages to lose every year. The opacity of this system makes it hard to see how much money they are losing.

The claim is that the prison farm will produce jobs; in fact, the prior prison farm is producing no jobs. The argument is that people who are trained in this way will be less likely to reoffend; in fact, recidivism rates have not improved. The focus in this farm is on animal husbandry, whereas the evidence suggests that, to the extent that there is any benefit in agricultural programs, it comes from horticulture programs focusing on raising plants.

Obviously, we can see how this works. A person who is released from prison, a former inmate, can go out and start working and raising their own goods and selling them at farmers' markets. That is very different from trying to obtain the capital necessary to take care of, say, cattle or goats on a large scale.

On May 12, I raised a question. I am seeking an opportunity to get a fuller answer to the additional problem that I raised.

At that time, I said the following:

...meeting notes obtained via access to information reveal that the union representing prison staff is alarmed that, at Correctional Service of Canada's existing prison farm, staff are required to work with inmates after hours in unsafe conditions. This includes being alone and unaccompanied, and being denied the personal paging devices necessary to call for immediate backup. The union's fears include the potential for assault and hostage taking.

If the government cannot provide safe working conditions at its existing, relatively small, prison farm, how will it do so at its planned vast, new goat- and cow-milking operation?

That was my question, and I hope that I will get a more fulsome answer today than I got on May 12.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to stand in the House today to speak about the penitentiary agricultural program with the member for Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston.

I would like to begin my remarks today by reiterating what the Government of Canada shared with this House back in May 2022 pertaining to the operations of this program. At the time, it was noted that the Correctional Service of Canada did not possess any goats as part of its agricultural program. One year later, this remains the same. As of this debate, CSC currently has no confirmed plan to expand its current agricultural operations to include goats.

Between the Collins Bay and Joyceville institutions, the program currently includes a number of different activities. These include management of livestock, such as both dairy and beef cattle; land management; beekeeping; fenceline repair; maple syrup production; forestry management; horticulture; and crop production. Current operations continue to prioritize dairy cattle operations, which will be fully implemented once the barn construction is completed at Joyceville Institution. However, as noted, plans for this barn's operations will be for dairy cattle purposes.

I would also like to address the documents from 2021 that were released through an ATIP request. We know that there are unique risks that CSC employees are exposed to as part of their employment. I would like to take this time to recognize all those who work tirelessly and dutifully, despite these risks, to keep our communities safe. That is why CSC has implemented practices and procedures that work to keep their employees safe.

As part of this, CSC management regularly meets with union members to identify concerns and take any additional actions necessary to keep its workers safe. It is worth noting that, as indicated within the same documents from 2021 and mentioned by the member opposite, the concerns were discussed with a union representative and responded to by CSC. This included actions taken to do the following: ensure that overtime scheduled in advance would involve, where necessary, staff members working together to the extent possible; clarify directions to security staff regarding routine patrols; and clarify additional ways to enhance communication among staff and provide updates as required.

In addition, it was revealed through this documentation that, whereas other areas were identified as a concern, such as access to first aid and CPR training, CSC's response proved satisfactory to concerned parties. Since the time of this documentation, from almost two years ago, I can confirm that there have been neither violent incidents nor hostage takings involving participants in the penitentiary agriculture program. However, as they have done, it is our expectation that CSC and their union partners will continue to work together to prioritize the safety of their staff.

To conclude, I would like to speak about the successes associated with the offender employment and employability program, which includes the penitentiary agricultural program. CORCAN programs provide offenders with on-the-job, vocational and essential skills training, which is transferable to a variety of different types of employment. There have been several research documents dating back almost a decade that have noted a connection between employment and positive reintegration results. To date, there have been 427 vocational certifications directly related to agriculture that have been issued to offenders, with additional certifications issued for work associated with the implementation of penitentiary agriculture operations, such as construction for required renovations.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Madam Speaker, I would like to take a moment just to observe, seeing that the member started with the subject of the goat operation, that she has stated once again that there are presently no goats. We already knew that. There are, however, plans for the construction of a goat barn. She mentioned that the barn under construction is for cattle. That is true. The construction plans had called for the laying of foundations of both barns as part of one tender and then a second tender in which they would be completed. For its own reasons, CORCAN decided to go with the complete construction first of the cattle barn and then of the goat barn.

Will she stand here, therefore, and finally say the thing that the government members have absolutely refused to say, which is that there will not be, under any circumstances, a goat farm producing formula for export in the Canadian prison system?

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the opportunity for us to recognize the outstanding efforts performed by CSC employees on a daily basis, as well as the inherent risks performed by many correctional officers. It also permits us to recognize the meetings that occur between CSC and its union partners that prioritize the safety of staff.

CSC has implemented many policies and practices to accomplish this goal. However, as the documents acknowledge, there are very clear forums, both formal and informal, to discuss any safety concern or question that arises in any situation.

I would like to conclude by recognizing the penitentiary agriculture program. Since its reopening, the program has worked to provide transferrable employment skills to offenders, the majority of whom will one day be released back into the community.

Rail Transportation

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Madam Speaker, I rise this evening to expand on a question that I asked on May 16 regarding this government's proposed high-frequency rail project between Toronto and Quebec City. Specifically, the question I raised in question period was based on a response that I received to my Order Paper question regarding the procurement options the government had assessed as part of deciding on the route it was taking.

I will say at the outset that the NDP very much supports investing in passenger rail in our country, particularly along the most populous rail corridor between Toronto and Quebec City, but we are deeply concerned about the approach the government has taken. The Liberals seem fixated on pursuing the public-private partnership model despite the many concerns that have been raised along the way.

In the response I received, only two privatization procurement models were really assessed in detail. In addition, the government looked at a list of 20 projects, all of which used the P3 model. The government does not seem to have looked in any detail at passenger rail projects in Switzerland, France, Korea and Japan, all of which have wonderful examples of passenger rail that is publicly delivered.

The auditor generals in both British Columbia and Ontario have raised serious concerns about the value to the public when it comes to these public-private partnerships. In B.C., for example, the auditor general found that the government was paying almost twice as much to borrow money via the P3 route than for publicly funded projects.

I think the public in Canada, Canadian taxpayers, deserves to see a detailed comparison between the P3 model, which is the privatization model the government has proposed for the high-frequency rail project, and a public model, a design-build model that uses public money to build public assets and operate them publicly.

I will reference Unifor, the union representing many of the people who work on our passenger trains in Canada. This is from Scott Doherty on March 9, 2022:

Privatization in transportation means higher costs, broken promises, worse service and route closures. P3s reward companies where workers are paid less and have job insecurity, and often leads to risks to health and safety.... This proposed P3, [the HFR project], like many other projects, is bound to go off the rails.”

We need to put public interests first and foremost. It is extremely concerning to hear the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank saying in 2020 that he wishes to “start with the market”, which is the private capital markets, “and work backwards” to design projects. We need to start with the public first and ensure that when we are investing in important infrastructure like passenger rail, the public's interest is first and foremost when it comes to how we make decisions in this country.

The last thing I will say, in closing, is that there are serious concerns about what privatizing the passenger rail service between Toronto and Quebec City will mean for Via Rail, this country's Crown corporation that has a long history of delivering passenger rail service. That corridor represents over 80% of Via Rail's revenue, and if we take that important revenue and that service and move it to a private corporation, it is going to leave Via Rail as a shadow of its former self when it comes to service in this country. That is something that very much concerns us.

I look forward to the parliamentary secretary expanding on why the public received no—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Madam Speaker, the provision of intercity passenger rail in Canada's most densely populated areas is a priority for our government. High-frequency rail between Quebec City and Toronto is central to the transformation of rail service for Canadians.

High-frequency trains will significantly expand and improve passenger rail service in Canada. Via Rail and its employees will play a vital role in this passenger rail service expansion, in collaboration and in partnership with a private developer.

Indeed, our government has conducted a robust assessment of many options. In addition to examining a variety of public-private partnership models, our government compared these models against a traditional public procurement approach. This analysis concluded that a collaborative public-private partnership is the optimal model to ensure the best possible outcomes for Canadians.

Under this collaborative model, Via High Frequency Rail, a subsidiary of Via Rail, has been established to act as a strong public sector counterparty to a private developer partner. Via High Frequency Rail will enter into a contract with a private developer partner to jointly develop and plan the operations of a new passenger rail service in the corridor from Quebec City to Toronto. That plan will include the role of Via Rail and its employees. When services are transferred, the role of Via Rail employees as well as Via Rail's experience and knowledge will be crucial.

Unlike privatization, our government will ensure Via Rail continues as a public entity while bringing in the private sector to help deliver the best projects for Canadians by leveraging their innovation and by transferring revenue risks. This will benefit Canadian taxpayers by mitigating the ongoing financial costs of delivering this expanded rail service.

Our government puts workers first. Ensuring Via Rail employees are protected will always be a priority of the Government of Canada. This is demonstrated in our government's approach to high-frequency rail.

For example, Via Rail and its assets, including high frequency rail, will be owned by the Government of Canada. As part of this process, the Government of Canada will require that any private developer partners respect Via Rail employees. In concrete terms, this means that they must respect employees' collective agreements and benefits and demonstrate how they will work with Via Rail employees and unions. These criteria will be mandatory, and any proposal that fails to meet them will be deemed unacceptable by the Government of Canada.

Throughout the high-frequency rail project, federal legislation, notably the Canada Labour Code, compels the private developer partner to continue to employ unionized employees on the terms and conditions of applicable collective agreements at the term of the transfer.

Protecting the public interest in the high frequency rail project will remain a fundamental principle for the Government of Canada, for example, through a pricing policy and service requirements for communities along Via Rail's current routes in the corridor.

In conclusion, high-frequency rail is expected to be the largest transportation infrastructure project in Canada in generations, bringing faster, greener, more frequent and more reliable service to travellers.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I just want to remind members that if they want to have conversations, they should take them outside, because the House is still in session to a certain degree at this point, and there is quite a bit of a hum going through it.

The hon. member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Madam Speaker, the parliamentary secretary noted that the government did compare P3s to a public procurement approach for the high-frequency rail project. In the response to my Order Paper question, there is a very brief passing mention of this. It says, “including an assessment against a traditional design-build procurement model”. However, there are no details provided as to the pros and cons of public versus private models of procurement.

Does the parliamentary secretary not agree that the public deserves a detailed comparison between the public-private partnership model her government is so fixated on and the traditional public procurement approach? When it comes to value for money, when it comes to risk and when it comes to the long-term future of passenger rail in Canada, Canadians deserve to know how the government made the decision to go with the big corporations instead of with a public procurement model that puts—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Madam Speaker, the Government of Canada is not privatizing Via Rail.

The Government of Canada will retain ownership of Via Rail, its subsidiary, and all high-frequency train infrastructure and assets.

A significant amount of analysis and due diligence was completed to determine the best delivery model for this transformational project. This included studying a whole spectrum of procurement options, ranging from fully public models to public-private partnerships.

The high-frequency train is the largest and most complex infrastructure project launched in Canada for decades. The Government of Canada therefore wants to enlist the knowledge and expertise of public entities and private sector companies with experience in developing and implementing major infrastructure projects.

That is why a private partner will be brought in to work with Via—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I am sorry. The time is up.

I want to remind members that if they have something to say, they should say it very lightly to members and not yell it out while the House is in session.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), the motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been withdrawn, and the House will now resolve itself into committee of the whole to study all votes under the Department of Finance in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2024.

(Consideration in committee of the whole of all votes under Department of Finance in the main estimates, Mrs. Carol Hughes in the chair)

Department of Finance—Main Estimates, 2023-24

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The House will now resolve itself into committee of the whole to study all votes under Department of Finance in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2024.

Today's debate is a general one on all votes under the Department of Finance. The first round will begin with the official opposition, followed by the government, the Bloc Québécois and the New Democratic Party. After that, we will follow the usual proportional rotation.

Periods of 15 minutes at a time will be allocated to each MP. Speaking time may be used for both debate and questions. If MPs wish to use this time to make a speech, it must not exceed 10 minutes, in order to leave at least five minutes for questions to the minister. When a member is given the floor, he or she must indicate to the Chair how the 15-minute period will be used. In other words, the member will need to indicate which portion will be used for a speech and which portion will be devoted to questions and answers.

In addition, pursuant to the order adopted on Thursday, May 18, members who wish to share their time with another member or members will need to indicate this to the Chair, and the Chair will not receive any quorum calls, dilatory motions or requests for unanimous consent. When the time is used for questions and comments, the minister's response should roughly correspond to the time taken to ask the question, since this time will be counted in the time allotted to the MP.

Pursuant to order made Thursday, May 8, the time provided for the debate tonight may be extended beyond four hours, as needed, to include a minimum of 16 periods of 15 minutes each.

I also wish to indicate that in committee of the whole, comments should be addressed to the Chair. I ask for everyone's co-operation in upholding all established standards of decorum, parliamentary language and behaviour.

We will now begin tonight's debate.

The hon. leader of the official opposition.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Leader of the Opposition]

Madam Chair, the government is introducing a carbon tax on heat, gas and groceries. Will the government also apply the HST and GST on the tax?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance]

Madam Chair, I am glad to hear the Leader of the Opposition talk about a price on carbon, because that is a key element of our government's efforts to fight climate change—

[The Deputy Chair, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The hon. leader of the official opposition.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Madam Chair, will the government charge HST on the carbon tax, yes or no?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Chair, the ordinary taxes will be levied in the ordinary fashion, but I do want to—