House of Commons Hansard #354 of the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was documents.

Topics

The EnvironmentOral Questions

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Adam van Koeverden Liberal Milton, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. My friend and colleague's comments were very well considered and well put.

To be honest, I had not really considered the gender implications of the insults from the member for Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes earlier. However, I am struck with the reality that when people run out of arguments in this place, they resort to personal attacks. They resort to calling names, using pejoratives and referring to each other's appearance. That is beneath the House of Commons. It is actually something that I think a school-aged person would receive detention for or would be called out for, as inappropriate behaviour.

If the member has some sartorial advice for me, that is fine; we can talk about it in the halls, but I do not think we should be resorting to ad hominem attacks. I would appreciate an apology, because it was childish and beneath this place.

The EnvironmentOral Questions

12:15 p.m.

The Speaker Greg Fergus

I thank all hon. members. I see that no one else is rising on the same point of order.

As I indicated earlier, the hon. member rephrased the question after the matter was brought to his attention. If it is necessary, I will look into the matter further, but for the time being I would like to let hon. members know that it was brought up and recognized by the Speaker. I hope we can move on.

Brain CancerPetitionsRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition. Petitioners note that an estimated 27 Canadians a day are diagnosed with a brain tumour. Canada is years behind the United States in approving new drugs and treatments, which could have an impact on thousands of brain cancer patients. There continues to be a shortage of brain cancer drugs in Canada.

With that in mind, the petitioners call on the Government of Canada to increase funding for brain cancer research; work with provinces and territories to ensure that drugs, medical services and new therapies are accessible to brain cancer patients nationwide; and remove unnecessary red tape so brain cancer drugs can be approved expeditiously.

Gatineau-Ottawa TramPetitionsRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC

Mr. Speaker, today I am tabling an important petition started by Patrick Robert-Meunier, executive director of MOBI-O and spokesperson of Coalition S'allier pour le tramway, which gathered nearly 900 signatures from residents in the region.

This petition calls on the government to fund the Ottawa side of the preliminary design studies for the Gatineau-Ottawa tram as soon as possible to ensure the completion of this much-needed project that is so important for our region.

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I would ask that all questions be allowed to stand at this time.

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

The Speaker Greg Fergus

Is that agreed?

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of the motion, of the amendment and of the amendment to the amendment.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Mr. Speaker, I know it has been an hour and a half since the member last spoke about the issue. I know he has had a lot of communication from his constituents. Has he heard from any more of his constituents about the issue?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Alex Ruff Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Mr. Speaker, that is a great question because, unfortunately, I did have to cut off a page or two of my commentary.

Here is some feedback I got from one of my constituents this morning. Eric said, “It is the equivalent to insider trading and should have similar punishment attached to it for all parties involved.

“Government should be held to stricter rules than the general public and should never be allowed to escape punishment that the general public would not be able to.

“Using public office for personal gain is disgraceful and frankly disgusting.”

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:20 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I too would like to read a quote from someone I think Canadians would respect greatly, the former law clerk of the Parliament of Canada. I suggest that he is an individual who is truly independent, and what he says should be taken with very serious consideration no matter what part of the House one sits in. He says, “it is an abuse of its powers for the House to use its power to demand and get documents from the government in order to transfer them to a third party (RCMP) that wouldn't otherwise receive them or to compel the government to give documents to the third party.”

Let us listen to what professionals, individuals and independent offices are saying. This is one example, not to mention what the RCMP is saying. Why is the Conservative Party so focused on continuing with the political games as opposed to listening to what these independent agencies are saying?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Alex Ruff Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any political games. As I highlighted clearly in my speech, I am speaking to the motion for the first time. The member who just asked me a question has already spent over an hour and a half speaking. He has given two speeches on the privilege motion. If anybody is playing games, it is him. He speaks 10 times more in the chamber than I do. I do not understand how it is political games for me to speak on behalf of my constituents. I read 15 minutes of quotes. I have pages of them; 450 constituents have given me feedback of how upset they are about the illegitimate use of taxpayers' money.

Ultimately, if the former law clerk has advice, maybe he should have provided it to the current law clerk, because the motion was supported by the majority of the members, and your ruling, Mr. Speaker, actually demanded that the documents be turned over.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Mr. Speaker, people back at home in Langley, British Columbia, are asking me what is going on in Ottawa, why Parliament has come to a halt and what is the impasse so soon into the fall session.

The NDP tore up its supply and confidence agreement with the Liberals. What happened there? The NDP discovered that hitching its wagon to the Prime Minister's train was not really helping it very much where it really counts, which is at the polls. Nature abhors a vacuum, so the Bloc Québécois jumped in and started flirting with the Liberal government in the hope of maybe leveraging some favours. However, it too is finding out that being closely aligned with the Prime Minister in the waning days of his political career probably is not all that good as a political strategy.

Both these opposition parties are learning what has been obvious to the Conservative Party for a long time: the Prime Minister has what resembles the opposite of a Midas touch. King Midas got his wish that everything he touched would turn to gold, which was really cool for a little while, until even his food started to turn into gold and he realized he would starve to death.

The Prime Minister has something similar; everything he touches gets tarnished. Eventually it falls apart in a pile of dust. Here are a couple of examples. The WE Charity was at one time a functional charity here in Canada. It had a very high profile. It worked with school kids. It had the additional advantage of being closely aligned with the Prime Minister, some of his cabinet ministers and some of their family members.

The Prime Minister thought he would reciprocate that friendship by selecting WE Charity, without any competition at all, to distribute almost $1 billion of COVID relief money. It was a short-lived golden moment for the charity, which ended when all the conflicts of interest became public. The harm was done and it shut its doors. It is history thanks to the Prime Minister.

SNC-Lavalin is another example. It was a profitable engineering and construction company with big projects right across the country and around the world. It made mistakes, admittedly, but if the Prime Minister had just left it alone, it would still be a thriving company today. His then attorney general, Jody Wilson-Raybould, Canada's first indigenous attorney general, had one idea, based on the professional advice she was getting, as to how to prosecute SNC-Lavalin. However, the Prime Minister had quite a different idea, so Canada's self-declared feminist prime minister fired Jody Wilson-Raybould, Canada's female, first-ever indigenous attorney general.

I read her autobiography, and I hope everyone has read it. It is very informative. In there, she said, quite frankly, that she wishes she had never met the Prime Minister. She told him that to his face. There are many other people who have been too closely associated with the Prime Minister who feel the same.

Another example is former governor general David Johnston, a man with a huge reputation in Canada for the services he has provided to his nation. He was appointed to—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:25 p.m.

NDP

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I would like to request that you look through the chamber. It appears we do not have quorum to continue this debate.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:25 p.m.

The Speaker Greg Fergus

There is a quorum call and indeed, the hon. member is correct. The bells will be rung.

And the bells having rung:

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:25 p.m.

The Speaker Greg Fergus

At this point, we do have quorum in the House.

The hon. member for Langley—Aldergrove.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

October 11th, 2024 / 12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Mr. Speaker, I was sharing some of travesties the Prime Minister has wreaked upon great institutions and great people, like David Johnston, the former governor general of this country, a man with a huge reputation until the Prime Minister appointed him as special rapporteur on foreign interference in our elections, our democratic institutions. That appointment was made despite the close ties Mr. Johnston had with the Trudeau family and Trudeau Foundation, a foundation that had received funds from a foreign nation, which was going to be the subject of the investigation.

Maybe this obvious conflict of interest was not immediately obvious to our high school drama teacher Prime Minister, but it certainly should have been obvious to highly educated David Johnston. Unfortunately, he did not get it, he did not understand it or he turned a blind eye to it. In the end, he resigned, another fatality of the Prime Minister's golden touch.

I could go on with other examples. I could mention the Winnipeg lab affair, the ArriveCAN scam or the billionaire island scandal. Some of my colleagues have raised those already. I am not going to belabour the point other than to relate this back to the question of the day: What happened to Sustainable Development Technology Canada, or SDTC, better known now by its new nickname, the Liberal Party green slush fund?

I will provide a little history. SDTC was created by an act of Parliament back in former Liberal prime minister John Chrétien's days to promote investment in green technology, a laudable objective. It continued its work under former prime minister Stephen Harper and would likely be thriving today if the current Prime Minister had left it alone, but he could not resist the temptation of firing the people who were there and putting his own friends in place instead. That is what went wrong. The Prime Minister's friends sat on the board and, despite conflicts of interest, distributed money among themselves, insiders helping other insiders, Liberal friends helping each other.

We know all of this from the independent Auditor General's report 6, which was tabled in Parliament on June 4, a couple of weeks before the House rose for the summer break. It is highly critical of what was happening at SDTC. I am not going to get into the details because the report is public information, but I will discuss some examples. There was $390 million in misallocated taxpayer funds that was granted to insiders or non-qualifying projects. These are insiders on the board of directors supporting each other in their grant applications. There were 186 examples of conflicts of interest, with board members voting for each other's applications.

The Auditor General learned about this from a whistle-blower. This is what one of those whistle-blowers told the standing parliamentary committee now looking into it: “Just as I was always confident that the Auditor General would confirm the financial mismanagement at SDTC, I remain equally confident that the RCMP will substantiate the criminal activities that occurred within the organization.” There we have it. It is not just mismanagement but criminality.

Therefore, we, the official opposition Conservative Party, did what we were elected to do, which is holding the government to account and uncovering corruption. Where there is smoke, there is fire. We are doing our job.

We put forward a motion shortly after the Auditor General's report was tabled. I am going to read a small portion of it: “That the House order the government, Sustainable Development Technology Canada (SDTC) and the Auditor General of Canada each to deposit with the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, within 30 days of the adoption of this order, the following documents, created or dated since January 1, 2017”. The order goes on to describe what some of those documents are, the different types and categories.

This Conservative motion passed a little while later, on June 10, with the support of the other opposition parties, the NDP and the Bloc Québécois. Only Liberal members of Parliament voted against it.

I know the Liberals are not happy with the order, but this is the reality of a minority House. This is the way it works. They do not have a majority. They need to play nice with, and get support from, one of the opposition parties. They failed to do that. They are now stuck with this order they say they do not like. Well, that is too bad. Parliament is supreme, Parliament made the order and the Liberal Party must now comply with it. The governing party does not have a choice not to comply with it.

That is what happened. Nothing happened during the summer. Some of the documents were delivered, but not all. Clearly, the order was not complied with. We got back here in September after the summer break and things started to get very ugly. The first day back in the House, our House leader, the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle, rose on a question of privilege “concerning the failure of the government to comply with the order that the House adopted on Monday, June 10”.

I do not have to repeat anything in the House leader's speech. It is in Hansard for anybody who is interested in reading it. It is well researched, it is well written, and it is convincing. As a matter of fact, it convinced the Speaker, and a couple of days later, the Speaker made his ruling. The ruling confirms the earlier order. The Prime Minister's Office and all relevant government departments must comply with the original document production order as demanded, unredacted.

The Liberal House leader has been leading a valiant but ultimately failing charge against this document production order and the Speaker's ruling. She raises several interesting but specious constitutional arguments, which I would summarize as follows: number one, the document production order trespasses on the charter right of freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, section 8 of the charter; number two, the document production order exceeds the authority of the House by attempting to secure documents for a third party, namely the RCMP; and number three, the document production order is an unconstitutional attempt by the House of Commons to appropriate the role of another branch of government, namely the judiciary.

All are interesting and creative arguments but, in my submission, ineffective, and a little late in the day, as far as the Speaker was concerned. In his ruling, he said, “The Chair would suggest, respectfully, that these concerns ought to have been raised prior to the motion's adoption.” The first thing we learn in law school is that if a person is going to present in court, they better get all the evidence in, all the facts and all their arguments before the judge makes his ruling, not afterwards. It is too late.

The Speaker came to the reasonable conclusion that the document production order of a couple of months earlier stood, that it was not followed, and that the Liberals are wrong. The Prime Minister's Office must comply with the document production order.

The ruling reads:

The House has the undoubted right to order the production of any and all documents from any entity or individual it deems necessary to carry out its duties. ...these powers are a settled matter, at least as far as the House is concerned. They have been confirmed and reconfirmed by my immediate predecessors, as well as those more distantly removed.

...The Chair cannot come to any other conclusion but to find that a prima facie question of privilege has been established.

That is the ruling. That means the government must comply, and the Prime Minister's Office, the PMO, must make it clear to the departments that the House order ought to be complied with fully. I know the Liberals are not happy with this, with the original motion or with the ruling. They say it is unusual, that this is not normal course of business. Well, maybe so, but it is the ruling of the House and the House is supreme, and it can make this order, as the Speaker has ruled.

It is important to highlight that the other two opposition parties, the NDP and the Bloc Québécois, have both noted that while the order might be unusual, that does not excuse non-compliance, and I would underline that. There is no excuse for non-compliance.

Experts agree with that position. I am going to quote from Bosc and Gagnon, who are experts in this field. House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, 2017, at page 985, talks about Parliament's right to order the production of documents. It reads, “No statute or practice diminishes the fullness of that power rooted in House privileges unless there is an explicit legal provision to that effect, or unless the House adopts a specific resolution limiting the power.”

The House has never set a limit on its power to order the production of papers and records; therefore, the production order stands. Ancient history says that Parliament can do this, and the Prime Minister refuses to comply. That is why we are at an impasse. That is why things have ground to a halt, and until this is resolved, nothing will be debated but this issue.

The Liberals blame it on us, and I am saying they need to comply with the orders. Canadians want to know what is in those documents. What are they hiding? I think that is the fundamental question. What are they worried about?

The Speaker was trying to be helpful and suggested that all the parties could send this off to the committee and have members look at it there, but he noted, correctly in my submission, that “it is ultimately for the House to decide how it wishes to proceed”. The House has decided and the House has ordered the production of the documents. The Prime Minister and the Liberal Party must comply.

The way I see it, the Liberals have three choices. They can comply with the order, which is what we have been saying all along for the last nine days. Number two, they can sue the Speaker, who I know will not take that personally. They have done that before. They can challenge the Speaker's ruling based on all the specious arguments they have put forward already. Number three, they can ask the Governor General to dissolve the 44th Parliament and call an election. This is what we have been calling for all along. It is my preference.

Number one is obviously the simplest and the cleanest, which is to comply with the order and we get on with business. We can then send it to committee. Number two is the most interesting. It would be to sue the Speaker. The Liberals have done this in the past, and then they changed their mind, dissolved Parliament and called an election. As a student of constitutional law and Canadian history, I think that would be the most interesting. Let us go ahead and do it and see if the Supreme Court will even take the case on. If it does, it would make great Canadian history. Number three would be the best for Canada, and that is simply to dissolve this Parliament and call an election.

I spoke to a lot of people in my riding during the summer months, and this is what they are calling for. They say to call an election, call it now, as soon as possible. This is what people want. They deserve a government that will stop the corruption, fix what the Liberals have broken and offer common-sense solutions to the problems facing ordinary Canadians today.

Canadians deserve a government that will axe the tax, build the homes, fix the budget and stop the crime. Canadians deserve a government that does not play favourites with insiders and allows non-insiders can work hard and get ahead. Canadians deserve a Canada that delivers on its promise to all who call it home: that hard work earns powerful paycheques and pensions that buy affordable homes on safe streets in a country where anyone from anywhere can accomplish anything. All of this is possible, but first the Prime Minister has to call an election. He needs to do it now.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:40 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, with the political games of the Conservatives, people need to be aware that a former law clerk is saying the Conservative tactic is an abuse of power. What did the RCMP say? The RCMP said that what is being asked for causes a great deal of concern, and it raised the issue of the charter. The Auditor General of Canada reinforced what the RCMP said.

Every time I have asked the Conservatives why Canadians should be listening to them, with their political games, versus independent institutions, none of them have given a straight answer to Canadians. Why should we take the advice of the Conservatives over and above those—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:40 p.m.

The Speaker Greg Fergus

The hon. member for Langley—Aldergrove.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am going to turn that around as a question for the member for Winnipeg North: Why do the Liberals not comply with the order?

Parliament is supreme and we have the right to make this order. We did make the order. It is too bad for the Liberal Party that we have a minority government.

It is an order of this House; it must be complied with. There is an ancient tradition in our Parliament that we have the authority and right to make these kinds of orders.

What are the Liberals hiding from? What are they afraid of? Why are they hiding behind section 8 of the charter, which is there to protect individuals from government action, not the other way around?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, we have been debating this issue in the House for over two weeks. This is the third Friday in a row that the House has been discussing this question of privilege, and the government has still not expressed any interest in producing the documents that the majority of elected members of the House are asking it to provide. Meanwhile, no bills have been tabled, debated or moved forward. It seems as though the government is in no hurry to get back to work.

Why does my colleague think that the government is acting this way? Is it because, after nine years, this tired government does not really have any more legislation to introduce? Perhaps I should rephrase that. Would prorogation be an indication of that?

We see that the lights in the House are starting to dim. Is this the beginning of the end for the current government?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Mr. Speaker, that was an interesting question. The easy answer is that the Liberals are not going to take any advice from me. I wish they would, because we have some pretty good common-sense advice to give them.

Why are they not anxious and eager to get on with their legislative agenda? I do not know. I can say that people in my riding are not all that anxious for the Liberal government to continue with some of their ill-advised, poorly-thought-out legislation, like the capital gains tax inclusion rate increases. People in my riding do not want that. They see that it is wrong-headed, so perhaps it is okay for the government not to be advancing its legislative agenda right now.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, one thing my colleague started with in his speech was the NDP working with the Liberals, so I want to take a moment today to acknowledge the important work that happened, which was finished in the Senate yesterday. Pharmacare was passed through the Senate and was brought back to the House, and millions of Canadians will now have access to a pharmacare program. It is very exciting, and I think it shows that there are things we can do when we work together. As an opposition member, I work when I can for Canadians, and I oppose things when I think the government is not taking the right steps to help Canadians. I am very proud of dental care, pharmacare and the anti-scab legislation.

Does my colleague think that Canadians struggling right now, who find housing unaffordable and who cannot afford their groceries, think three weeks spent in the House not talking about ways to make their lives better is an appropriate use of parliamentary time?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Mr. Speaker, indeed, we should get on with debating things that are important to Canadians, like axing the tax, building homes that are affordable and getting the cost of living under control. I encourage the corrupt government to get on with the business of running this place in a clean, clear and ethical manner. That is what we should be debating right now.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is funny when NDP members stand up to talk about all the things they say they have done. They fail to mention that for four and a half to five years, as long as their agreement was in place, they propped up the government. They were complicit in all of the corruption and scandal that we are seeing.