Madam Speaker, I hope the parliamentary secretary will understand my point when I note that one of the numbers he cited makes the whole point here: 68 inmates have completed Red Seal certificates since 2021. That is in three years. That is 22 or 23 per year, which is not much in a country with thousands of inmates. It points to the problem that the reports I was citing get at. Our programs are vastly inadequate, whether in scope, which would be the problem going on here, or perhaps in direction.
I would make the suggestion that we could benefit from, perhaps more than anything else, looking at the successes that have occurred in other systems. There are many other penal systems, most of which attempt some form of retraining inmates for re-entry into the community. Some of them, no doubt, are worse than ours. Many, I suspect, are better. We can look at all of Europe, the Americans, the Australians and so on—