House of Commons Hansard #351 of the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was documents.

Topics

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC

Madam Speaker, yes, we all need to trust the RCMP and the police. However, it is our duty to give them the documents so that they can complete their investigation. If they receive redacted documents, or if some documents have been withheld, how can we expect RCMP investigators to do their job? I am confident that they will do a good job. We have to do our job here and demand that the documents be turned over.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Madam Speaker, we in the NDP support the motion. Of course we want to get to the bottom of this Liberal scandal, but I know my colleague remembers what happened during the Harper years. Under Harper, the Conservatives refused any investigation into their scandals. I just want to point out that the G8 scandal involved $1 billion. The ETS scandal cost $400 million. The Phoenix pay system cost $2.2 billion. Funding for the fight against terrorism involved more than $3 billion, and we never found out what happened to that money. That is a lot of money.

It is taxpayers' money, but the Conservatives treated the public purse like their own personal bank account. There was never an investigation into all of that corruption because the Conservatives refused to allow committees to get to the bottom of it and, of course, they prevented Parliament from doing it either.

Will my colleague now admit that the Conservatives were wrong to refuse these investigations? Are they prepared to apologize to the Canadian public?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC

Madam Speaker, my colleague threw out a lot of numbers. He seemed relatively well informed, which means there was a lot of transparency.

I invite him to ask the Library of Parliament the same questions. He will no doubt get the same answer because all the documents were submitted.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from Lévis—Lotbinière for his excellent speech. I just want to mention that he has been here in the House since 2006. He said that, but it bears repeating. That makes him the longest-serving Conservative MP from Quebec. We can be very proud of his contribution to the debate.

My colleague from Lac-Saint-Louis was talking about the memory we need to have here in the House. The member witnessed the appalling free-for-all during the sponsorship scandal.

Could the member tell us about the parallels between what we are seeing today and the sad and awful Liberal sponsorship scandal of the early 2000s?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for pointing out my achievements here in the House.

It is true that this is very important, because, if members will recall, the Liberals used basically the same strategy in the sponsorship scandal. The money was hidden in a program, and they did not want to disclose where the money was going or what it was being used for. After looking into what was going on and asking for more transparency and for documents, we found out after the fact that the sponsorship scandal was a roundabout way of giving money back to the Liberal Party. We do not want to speculate on the same strategy, but we would like to make sure that the money in the green fund was not used to indirectly finance the Liberal Party.

I would therefore invite the Liberal Party to be as transparent as possible, hand over the documents and free itself from any speculation about its own financing.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

5:35 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, as the member is reflecting on the past, let me get his thoughts on the Conservative anti-terrorism scandal, the Conservative Phoenix pay scandal, the Conservative G8 spending scandal, the Conservative ETS scandal, the Conservative F-35 scandal, the Conservative Senate scandal, the Conservative election scandals, as in two scandals, and why, with all of those Conservative Harper scandals, Stephen Harper never provided unredacted comments. Why is there a double standard? When that member sat with Stephen Harper, he never made those types of demands, yet today he feels we should not only make that demand but then shift it over to the RCMP, thereby blurring judicial independence.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC

Madam Speaker, that list was relatively long; on the other hand, it was relatively inaccurate. The Senate scandals have all been completely cleared up. The F-35s were bought by the Liberals. It seems to me that there was another one; yes, the Phoenix payroll scandal.

It is true that the initiative was launched by the Conservative government, but it was disastrously implemented by the Liberal government. Instead of rolling it out in one department to see if the Phoenix system worked, it rolled it out across all departments on the same day. I am sorry, but that was a really stupid, amateurish decision. It is worse than a major scandal, because it cost billions of dollars and impacted all civil servants, who were afraid they would not get paid. The effects are still being felt today. The government missed the mark because of a lack of judgment.

That is what we have come to expect from the Liberals. There is no such thing as good judgment.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

5:40 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Madam Speaker, I asked questions but my colleague did not answer. He said that everything was fine, but that was not so. It was the worst government in our entire history. The most corrupt government ever was the Harper government. It was a disaster. It had no idea how to even manage finances.

As we know, the Parliamentary Budget Officer has said that all the treaties they gave to tax havens cost us a bundle, close to $30 billion a year.

We can criticize the Liberals for not reversing all the bad, stupid decisions that Mr. Harper made. However, the reality is that the Conservatives were at fault. They betrayed the Canadian people.

Can my colleague admit that the Harper government was the most corrupt government in Canadian history?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC

Madam Speaker, with all due respect, I think my colleague is starting to have cognitive problems.

The Harper government is the best government Canada has ever had. That government managed to balance the budget, despite the global economic crisis of 2008. The country emerged stronger because we made better investments to get Canadians back to work. Those investments did not create inflation. Let us not forget that, under the Harper regime, interest rates gradually went down. Canadians could afford to buy a house, to pay rent, to live, to purchase inexpensive food and to buy a car at a reasonable price. There was hope in Canada. We set a benchmark for the rest of the world.

Right now, Canada is a negative example because people can no longer afford to live here. The Harper years were the good years. I call them the years of living high on the hog, because I am a farmer.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Madam Speaker, while it is always indeed an honour and a privilege to rise in this House and address it on important matters, it is with some disappointment that we find ourselves once again in this place debating a question of privilege. I have lost count of the number of times in this Parliament and recent parliaments that this House has had to debate questions of privilege related to the actions of the Liberal government. This particular question of privilege is very serious. It relates to the government's failure to produce the documents that were required to be produced by an order of this House.

On June 10 of this year, a majority of members in this House passed a motion that ordered the production of important documents related to Sustainable Development Technology Canada, SDTC. These documents were to be deposited with the law clerk, who would then have them forwarded to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The key word is “order”. This was not an ask, not a request, not a “pretty please, if you have time would you be so kind as to provide this information”, but an order of this House that has great constitutional and legal weight.

To talk about this we need to go back and look at the principles and privileges of this House. The House of Commons has the authority to order the production of documents and that authority comes from our Constitution. Section 18 of the British North America Act, now known as the Constitution Act, 1867, states:

The Privileges, Immunities, and Powers to be held, enjoyed, and exercised by the Senate and by the House of Commons and by the Members thereof respectively shall be such as are from Time to Time defined by Act of the Parliament of Canada...

That power includes the time-honoured ability to send for persons, papers and records.

Bosc and Gagnon, at pages 984 and 985, explain:

The Standing Orders do not delimit the power to order the production of papers and records. The result is a broad, absolute power that on the surface appears to be without restriction. There is no limit on the types of papers likely to be requested; the only prerequisite is that the papers exist in hard copy or electronic format, and...they are located [with]in Canada.

Very clearly the documents requested in this case qualify under those provisions.

Bosc and Gagnon go on to state:

No statute or practice diminishes the fullness of that power rooted in House privileges unless there is an explicit legal provision to that effect, or unless the House adopts a specific resolution limiting the power. The House has never set a limit on its power to order the production of papers and records.

I know all members have their preferred authorities, their favourite green books. Mine is Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, sixth edition, which, citing again Erskine May and others at paragraph 24, for those following along at home, states:

Parliamentary privilege is the sum of the peculiar rights enjoyed by each House collectively as a constituent part of the High Court of Parliament, and by Members of each House individually, without which they could not discharge their functions and which exceed those possessed by other bodies or individuals. Thus, privilege, though part of the law of the land is, to a certain extent an exemption from the ordinary law. The distinctive mark of a privilege is its ancillary character. The privileges of Parliament are rights which are “absolutely necessary for the due execution of its powers“.

I remind the House that it is necessary for the execution of the powers of this House that our right, as the House of Commons, is to order the production of documents. We are the grand inquest of the nation. Documents have been ordered by this House. Those documents were not provided as stipulated by that order. That is why we are here today on this question of privilege.

Let us take a step back and look at some of the issues involved with SDTC. It has become known as the green slush fund for obvious reasons. The Office of the Auditor General made several key observations during the audit period, which go from March 2017 to December 2023. I want to include a few key points from that report, which was tabled in the House on June 4 this year.

First, 10 projects were approved, for more than $59 million for funding, that should have been deemed ineligible. There was $59 million that went to ineligible recipients. The second point I want to focus on is that SDTC's conflict of interest policies were not followed 90 times. Those 90 times, the organization failed to follow its own conflict of interest policies. Third, the board approved $58 million for projects without ensuring that they met the terms of the contribution agreement.

At the same time, the government's responses to these issues could be summarized in one word: pathetic. Of all the responses I have heard in relation to the Auditor General's report, I cannot say I have ever heard such absurd responses from the government. In fact, SDTC, in some cases, made false and outright preposterous claims. I want to highlight a few of these responses.

SDTC claimed that each project proposal goes through rigorous due diligence and evaluations that are “robust” and “highly credible”. That is simply not true. If it were true, we would not be facing a multi-million dollar corruption scandal. Unless that due diligence being referred to is simply SDTC insiders looking at who on their board is getting their money, it simply did not happen.

SDTC also claimed that it was subject to an innovation, science and economic development evaluation, and that was in 2018, before this scandal happened. It was six years ago, outside of the Auditor General's audit period, and outside of the period when they were clearly ignoring the audit and the findings.

SDTC said that it does not fully agree with the Auditor General's recommendations because SDTC “delivered strong outcomes against these objectives.” Unless those objectives were to push more money into companies that the board members had financial interests in, that is simply not true.

In fact, the Auditor General herself found that 82% of the funding transactions approved of by the board of directors during the audit period were conflicted. Therefore, 82% of the time that funding was approved, there were members of the board who were benefiting from the decisions being approved.

SDTC also wrote that “written records did not fully capture the robust deliberations made,” and, “SDTC is of the view that these projects met the eligibility criteria set out...but acknowledges that the [Auditor General] reached a different conclusion”. Yes, the Auditor General did reach a difference conclusion. She found that money was misspent. She found that there were conflicts 82% of the time.

The corrupt operators of the green slush fund are saying the Auditor General got it wrong, but any day of the week, I will put my money behind the Auditor General as opposed to the directors at the corrupt green slush fund.

SDTC also claimed that it had “clear processes for staff and directors to declare real, potential and perceived conflicts”. Again, this claim completely ignores the findings of the Auditor General and, frankly, the public accounts committee, of which I am proud to be a member. We know conflicts were not declared, and even when they were declared, they either voted for their own projects or took turns voting for each other's projects in the same room without even exiting themselves from the room. The idea that there were clear processes for conflicts of interest would be laughable if it was not so concerning that these things were happening under the watch of the current government.

SDTC also claimed that it further, “strengthened its conflict of interest policies” in November 2023, well after these allegations came to light. More than that, it shows that it only cared about these problems after these terrible abuses and corruptions were found.

By November 2023, it knew the Auditor General's report was coming because that audit period was from March 2017 to December 2023. Claiming that policies have been strengthened and implying nothing further needs to be done after the corruption has already happened is simply disingenuous.

There is a word for this kind of arrogance: entitlement. Such entitlement comes when any organization is so used to getting vast amounts of money for their own projects that it disconnects them from the realities of honest, hard-working Canadians from coast to coast to coast.

This matter has been raised in at least two parliamentary committees, the public accounts committee and the industry committee, both of which are doing exceptional work studying this matter. However, there is still a lot we do not know about SDTC and the green slush fund.

What we have learned so far through the industry and public accounts committees is truly alarming. Those of us on the opposition benches are determined to find out the full story; to ensure that, we need to make sure that the appropriate authorities are made aware of the documents in question.

Interestingly, it is often cited that this is not a new entity. Indeed, SDTC was created in 2001; it has been in existence for over 20 years. However, the problems did not occur until it came under the authority of the Liberal government. In fact, in an audit in 2017, no major concerns were raised. The conflict of interest culture only emerged after board members were hand-picked and appointed by the current Liberal government and then minister Navdeep Bains. He, I might add, is appearing at the public accounts committee tomorrow.

What is more is that the most concerning of these appointments was in 2019, when Annette Verschuren was appointed as chair, despite clear conflicts of interest on this file. Those warnings turned out to be warranted; this past July, the Ethics Commissioner found that the former chair had violated the Conflict of Interest Act with her participation in decisions to benefit organizations that she herself had a financial interest in. It is not me saying that; our Ethics Commissioner noted that she had violated the Conflict of Interest Act.

We also found out through testimony at committee that former assistant deputy minister Andrew Noseworthy was responsible for keeping watch over SDTC but apparently failed to do so. On December 11 of last year, he appeared at the industry committee and said, “To my knowledge, I am not aware of any decisions to allocate funds to projects related to board members where they did not recuse themselves.”

However, the Auditor General's report released just two months later clearly informed us that the system was filled with conflicts of interest; we can go back to that 82% number. ADM Noseworthy's claim that there was no awareness of these conflicts of interest is clearly at odds with the actual facts found in the case by the Auditor General. Either he told an untruth to the committee or he was willfully blind to the corruption that was going on in the institution for which he was responsible.

We also know that, if there was any semblance of good governance, the Minister of Innovation, Science and Technology would have or should have been notified of these lapses in conflicts of interest rules and of the fact that accountability was absent in this matter.

What is more, we found out in shocking testimony at the public accounts committee that at least one Liberal MP was informed of these allegations more than two years ago. The Liberal member of Parliament for Calgary Skyview was informed of these decisions, but perhaps his response to the matter got lost in the mail.

When the whistle-blower known to the committee as Witness 1 appeared at the public accounts committee last month, they stated that they had informed the Liberal member of Parliament for Calgary Skyview in May 2022. The whistle-blower stated that the Liberal Member “assured me that he took this situation seriously and guaranteed that he would facilitate contact with the appropriate people in the federal government and the Auditor General's office.” However, the Liberal member was not true to his word and subsequently refused to engage.

We also know that Liberal-friendly directors were appointed to the board. A key example of this is long-time Liberal operative Stephen Kukucha, who was appointed to the board in February 2021. This is after he had a long-time career as a Liberal donor, a ministerial staffer in a Liberal government, a regional organizer for the Liberal Party of Canada and a secretary for the 2016 Liberal convention.

Interestingly, shortly after the Prime Minister came into office, that Liberal insider became a lobbyist and advocated for certain energy and transportation businesses. However, he was still appointed to the board of the SDTC, the green slush fund, which is exactly where the companies he had a personal financial interest in could receive financial contributions from the very same government.

Furthermore, as my good friend and colleague, the member for South Shore—St. Margarets, has very ably explained, we also know that the current Liberal minister of environment has had an interest in a venture capital firm called Cycle Capital, which also received funding from the green slush fund.

Finally, I have learned from a current member of the new board that since the scandal broke, none of the money, not one penny nor one dollar that was wrongfully spent, has been recovered. Despite the fact that 82% of decisions were made by conflicted board members, not a dollar has been recouped for Canadian taxpayers. This is but one more reason why the production order for the papers must be fulfilled, as was ordered by a majority of the House.

Let us refresh what we are looking for. As the grand inquest of the nation, this is not only a matter of parliamentary privilege for the House but also a moral obligation to Canadians. In order to meet that obligation, the documents must be fully provided to the parliamentary law clerk and thereby sent to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

I sit on the public accounts committee, which is still waiting to receive a number of documents. This is separate in part from the motion before us. We do not yet have the communications that would indicate if or when the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry was informed that the money was going out based on the decisions of conflicted board members. We do not yet have contribution and funding agreements showing the requirements and obligations of recipients. We do not have the conflict of interest declarations of board members and former board members.

When we put this all together, simply put, we do not have the transparency required, the oversight needed and the accountability required and expected of us as members of the House.

As I mentioned at the outset, this is not the first question of privilege we have dealt with in recent times, but it seems like we are doing this time and time again. Earlier this year, on yet another privilege debate on yet another scandal, the ArriveCAN scandal, I stated that this is a slow erosion of rights and privileges, and that it is not a small matter. It is an absolute threat to parliamentary democracy.

We saw this in the previous Parliament with the Winnipeg lab scandal, which caused tremendous hardship for the scandal-plagued Liberal government. In fact in that case, the then president of the Public Health Agency of Canada was called to the bar to be admonished for failing or, perhaps more accurately, refusing, to provide documents that had been ordered to be provided to the House. In that case, the Liberal government itself took the former Speaker of the House to court to avoid accountability.

On the same topic of withholding documents, just earlier this month, the Speaker ruled that there was another prima facie question of privilege in which the business partner of the Liberal member for Edmonton Centre failed to disclose documents he had been ordered to provide. His business partner is disregarding an order of Parliament, and we will certainly deal with that question of privilege once this one has been dealt with.

The issue before us is not simply a question of niceties about respecting parliamentary privilege; it goes to the heart of our democracy. The scandal is about a tremendous waste of money, where hard-earned taxpayer dollars were used by the board of SDTC to benefit government insiders. There need to be clear and accountable records for Canadians to know who got rich and who is at fault.

We must pass the motion. What is more, and what is equally important, is that the documents must be turned over to the parliamentary law clerk as required by the order of the House.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, there has been accountability and there has also been transparency on the issue. The simple truth of the matter is that since it was found out, we have seen independent investigations internally, two of them; we have seen the Auditor General conduct investigations; we have seen hours and hours at the standing committee; we have seen a replacement of the board; and we have seen the stopping of funding of new monies going in. These are all actions as a result of the government truly caring about what is taking place.

Now, the Conservatives have chosen to make a political game out of this, because they want to tie the word “corruption” to it. Hindsight is wonderful, but the chair of the board was an actual adviser to Brian Mulroney, Stephen Harper and Jim Flaherty, and we appointed her as the chair of the organization. With hindsight, yes, that was a mistake.

My question to the member is: Why do we need to disregard the concerns from the RCMP and the Auditor General when they say that the Conservative tactic today causes a great deal of concern?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Madam Speaker, the fact is, the member said that the government is truly caring about what happened here. Well, no, the Liberals only care about the fact that they got caught. All of this only happened after these allegations came to light through the Auditor General's report, and through the work of my good friend and colleague, the member for South Shore—St. Margarets, who actually put in the hard work to get to the bottom of some of the allegations in this scandal.

However, we are not done yet. We still do not have all the details of what happened in these cases. We have only seen 82% of the conflicted cases that the Auditor General examined. We do not know the extent of that applied to the more than 400-plus decisions that were made outside that time period. The Auditor General was only able to look at a sampling of those cases. So, we know about 82% of those cases, but there could be much more. There is so much work left to be done.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, I share many of my colleague's concerns, including about the government's accountability in a case like this. There are actions that need to be taken and changes that need to be made.

However, there is something that worries me about the Conservatives' attitude in this debate. I wonder what will happen afterward. If the Conservatives form the next government, will they commit to reinvesting the money in a new green fund for innovation and sustainable development in order to promote and maximize the energy transition?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

October 8th, 2024 / 6:05 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Abitibi—Témiscamingue for his good question.

I will be very clear. We will not give the money to government cronies. We will make sure that every dollar that the government spends is given to organizations that do important work, not to organizations that have ties to the government. We will be very clear on that.

Let us not forget that the first bill the Conservative government introduced in 2006 was on federal accountability. It is very important that we be very clear. The next Conservative government will be accountable to all Canadians.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Madam Speaker, a June 2024 national security and intelligence committee report reveals foreign interference in the Conservative leadership race. It identified China and India. We know that Erin O'Toole met with lawyers to talk about how he was taken out as leader of the Conservative Party partially through foreign interference.

I am asking my hon. colleague this question because, today, the man who took his place, who may have been involved with foreign interference, made a shocking statement to the world that he was encouraging a strike on Iran by Netanyahu to attack a nuclear facility. We see the irresponsible nature of this guy, who has never had a job outside of working in a Dairy Queen, yet is calling for a strike on a potential nuclear facility. He does not even have security clearance. Is it that he cannot get security clearance or is he not allowed to have security clearance? How is it possible that we could have a man who says he is going to be leader of a country calling for a strike on a nuclear facility and he does not even know what the nuclear and security implications are because he cannot get the clearance?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6:05 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker Carol Hughes

I am not quite sure the question goes with the privilege motion, but I will allow the hon. member for Perth-Wellington to respond if he so wishes.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Madam Speaker, I would just say, first and foremost, that this is complete and utter nonsense from the member for Timmins—James Bay. Let us be very clear. As a minister of the Crown, the leader of His Majesty's loyal opposition is a privy councillor. He is a privy councillor for life, with all the responsibilities that come with that. He has been serving in the House and serving with distinction. The member would know well the rights and the privileges that come with that.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Madam Speaker, I hear a bit of an echo from way down in the far end, but those are the facts. The member is a member of the Privy Council, which comes with the absolute highest level of secrecy. That is an oath that is taken when they are sworn in to His Majesty's Privy Council.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6:05 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Speaker Carol Hughes

It was not just at the other end of the room that I heard some individuals speaking, so I would ask that members please wait until the appropriate time before speak.

Continuing with questions and comments, we have the hon. member for South Shore—St. Margarets.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Madam Speaker, I am going to make a brief comment on the Liberal member for Winnipeg North's comment earlier, where he finally acknowledged, in hindsight, that Annette Verschuren should not have been appointed chair of the Liberal green slush fund. I will give that member in the House another newsflash. The former Liberal minister Bains was told three times by the CEO of the Liberal green slush fund not to hire her because of her conflict of interest. The former PMO staffer who worked in communications in the green slush fund told the former minister's office and the PMO not to hire her because of her conflict of interest. She is the only chair in the history of the green slush fund to have a conflict.

Does the House know what former minister Bains said back to the CEO? He said to not worry, that he would manage the conflict. I guess they managed the conflict well, as they managed $400 million out of taxpayer money. I would like the member to comment about the claim or the acknowledgement that they made the wrong choice yet again.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Madam Speaker, the member for South Shore—St. Margarets makes a great point. Prior to this, there were no members of the board who would be conflicted. Not only did they appoint board members who were conflicted, they appointed the chair herself, who was highly conflicted and who was not only caught making decisions of a conflicted nature, where she was approving funds, but also further found to have violated the Conflict of Interest Act by the Ethics Commissioner.

This is one of the reasons why we are here today and one of the reasons why the Auditor General's report is so valuable and so important. It found that this was happening right under the nose of the Liberal government, under the nose of the Liberal ministers, because they themselves knew the conflicts existed.

They knew that this was a possibility, they knew that this was a problem, yet they still appointed these individuals to their roles as board members at SDTC.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Madam Speaker, the member did not make reference to the fact that the chair was an adviser to Brian Mulroney, Stephen Harper and Jim Flaherty. In the future, does he think we should discard any of those types of advisers?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Madam Speaker, simply put, we will disregard candidates who have clear and tangential conflicts of interest. We will not appoint people to decision-making bodies where they will be in a conflict of approving funds for their own businesses.

That is where these Liberals failed. They appointed individuals to decision-making positions at SDTC knowing full well, in advance, that they were making decisions that would benefit themselves directly. The claim that there are so few people in this sector, so they could not find anyone, is rubbish. There are tons of people in this country who would receive high praise for their ethics and integrity and serve on these boards to make decisions that are impartial and not with conflicts of interest.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders Of The Day

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Madam Speaker, it is an honour to rise today as the representative for the good people of North Okanagan—Shuswap. I will be speaking on the issue of the question of privilege raised by my colleague the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle.

For those Canadians who may still be unclear as to why we are debating a point of privilege to this extent, I will give a condensed history of the situation. This may be the first time people are seeing this back home or in other parts of the country, so they deserve to be brought up to speed on why Parliament has ground to a halt here.

I will quote my hon. colleague from South Shore—St. Margarets for the initial information, because he has been diligently bringing up the breaches of interest on this file:

There is a foundation set up in 2001 called Sustainable Development Technology Canada, with the purpose of providing taxpayer financial assistance to green technology companies before they are commercialized. Since the government was elected, the foundation has received a billion dollars of taxpayer money. The result of probing by parliamentary committees is that we found that in 82% of the funding transactions approved by the board of directors during a five-year sample period that the Auditor General looked at, 82% of those transactions were conflicted.

After seeing the Auditor General's report and the seemingly blatant disregard of conflict of interest guidelines, opposition members called for the release of the documents pertaining to the Liberal green slush fund, as it has come to be known.

On June 16 this year, my colleague the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle rose on a question of privilege following notice under Standing Order 48 concerning the failure of government to comply with the order the House adopted on Monday, June 10. A majority of the House voted that day, June 16, to compel the government to produce a series of unredacted records concerning Sustainable Development Technology Canada, now known as the green slush fund, a body engulfed in one of the worst Liberal scandals in recent years.

On September 26, just last week, the hon. Speaker presented his ruling on the question of privilege raised by the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle. I will quote only a portion of the Speaker's ruling because it is quite lengthy:

The procedural precedents and authorities are abundantly clear. The House has the undoubted right to order the production of any and all documents from any entity or individual it deems necessary to carry out its duties. Moreover, these powers are a settled matter, at least as far as the House is concerned. They have been confirmed and reconfirmed by my immediate predecessors, as well as those more distantly removed.

The Speaker later went on to say, “The Chair cannot come to any other conclusion but to find that a prima facie question of privilege has been established.”

Here we are today, one week later, debating a motion once again and calling on the government to produce the documents it has thus far refused to provide to the House. One has to wonder what is so damaging in these documents that the government would put all other legislative processes aside in an attempt to cover up what those documents contain.

How bad can it possibly be? Can it be worse than the SNC-Lavalin scandal that saw the same government embarrassed for its corruption and saw the first female indigenous minister of justice and attorney general kicked out of the Prime Minister's cabinet and caucus because she chose to stand up for the truth?

First, Canadians, my colleagues and I suspect that what is in the documents is extremely damning to the corrupt government and its Prime Minister, so bad that they will go to such great lengths to avoid producing the documents demanded by members of the House.

Parliamentarians, at least on this side of the House, take our role very seriously. Members of His Majesty's loyal opposition have a job to do, and that is to hold the government of the day accountable. Lord knows, that is a formidable task these days with a government that has been in power for nine years and is desperately trying to cling to that power.

I recall the 2015 campaign by the Prime Minister, which was during my first campaign in my first election. The Prime Minister made statements about sunlight being the best disinfectant, and he said that his government was going to be so transparent. Well, something has happened to those sunny days, and there are storm clouds brewing all over the out-of-touch, out-of-time Prime Minister and his government. On the aspect of transparency, what has truly become transparent is the Liberal government's clear and penchant leaning to look after its Liberal friends and ignore the rest of Canadians.

When we look at the hundreds of millions of dollars that the Auditor General has identified as having been spent or allocated inappropriately, we have to wonder how much good could have been done with those dollars. How many struggling Canadians would have been better off had the green slush fund dollars been properly accounted for and gone to deserving causes instead of to entitled Liberal friends?

When I am home in the North Okanagan—Shuswap, I hear from seniors who are struggling to get by on their minimal pensions because of the increased cost of living, including food, rents that have doubled and fuel and energy costs beyond what they can afford because of the government's penchant for its carbon tax that is driving up the cost of everything.

These Canadians are the ones hurting the most, yet the Prime Minister and his appointees had no problem letting a billion dollars, or a major portion of it, get blown away unchecked to insiders in conflicts of interest. These are the Canadians who deserve to know that justice can be served for them by holding the Prime Minister and his appointees accountable. These are Canadians like the one in five who skipped or reduced the size of at least one meal because they could not afford groceries; that rate is 45% among single parents. These are Canadians like the one in five parents who ate less so their children or another family member could eat; that rate is 44% among single parents.

I learned that in Vernon, one in 23 families has relied on a food bank in the last 12 months, and one in 13 kids depended on the food bank last year. These numbers are troubling. When I see a government this wasteful leaving Canadians behind, with seniors and children unable to eat, it is despicable.

Many of the food bank users in Vernon are hard-working, middle-class families struggling to put food on the table. I bring this to the current debate, because those Canadians have an expectation that we hold this government accountable through the actions of the members in this chamber, accountable for the taxpayer dollars those Canadians pay and this government continues to waste.

Many of those Canadians have to work two jobs and still rely on the food bank to feed their families. They deserve to know how this Prime Minister has let hundreds of millions of dollars be given to privileged insiders he appointed, while at the same time families, seniors and hard-working Canadians cannot afford food for their tables.

I spoke of the situation in Vernon and the North Okanagan, but the same situation is playing out across that riding and across Canada, with homelessness and tent cities popping up faster than a Liberal can spew talking points. We have heard members from across Canada speak of the rise in food bank use and the rise in homelessness, all while this PM and his insiders have funnelled millions of dollars to themselves or their close friends, leaving honest Canadians to go without.

I will shift topics a bit here to emphasize some of the points made by the member for South Shore—St. Margarets regarding some of the objections by the government to providing these documents.

If I was the owner or manager of a company and became aware of alleged criminal activity within that company, I would be expected to turn over evidence to the police to have it investigated. In fact, I would find it an obligation to point out wrongdoing, criminality and waste. There is no reason we would not provide the documents of evidence to enforcement agencies and investigative teams, except for one possible reason. That reason would be if the body providing the evidence was also guilty in the activity.

This House and its members should be held accountable in the same way, as managers of the business of government. We, through the motion to provide the documents and the question of privilege we are debating today, are working to do just that: to report alleged wrongdoing and conflict of interest, so that the proper authorities can investigate and, if needed, prosecute. We, through the motion to provide these documents, are doing what we are supposed to do: exposing the activities that have allowed $390 million to go to Liberal insiders.

As I have noted, there is only one reason apparent for this Prime Minister and his appointees to keep these documents hidden from the sunlight that he espoused to be the best disinfectant. It is also so intriguing that a government, or maybe it is just the Prime Minister and a few insiders, would go to such extreme measures to keep the truth from seeing the light of day. They have so far been willing to set aside all other legislative debate in this chamber to keep something hidden. We can only surmise what that may be, but from what we have seen in the Auditor General's report, it does not look good: numerous cases of conflict of interest; $58 million to 10 ineligible projects that on occasion could not demonstrate an environmental benefit or the development of green technology.

The Speaker may already see, but Canadians may not, that there is a way to end the impasse we are now at. All it would take is for the Prime Minister to release these documents as the House has directed. I say “directed”, not asked or requested. It was a clear direction, an order from the House and the members of this chamber, for the Prime Minister and his government to produce these documents. It was not a request from one party. It was a motion that the majority of the House voted to support.

The motion that Parliament adopted also did not say the documents could be redacted. Therefore, government could not pick and choose which portions to produce. It did not give permission for the Prime Minister or the PCO to decide which parts the House would see and which parts it would not. It would be highly inappropriate for a potentially guilty party to be given the leeway to remove or redact portions that could be damaging to their reputation.

Speaking of reputations, the government continues to build on its reputation of being untrustworthy when it comes to campaign promises, election promises and fake commitments. Now the corruption runs even deeper, and the government and the Prime Minister are refusing the will of Parliament. We saw how the government previously provided documents that were so redacted, entire pages were completely blacked out; not a written word was to be found. It must have gone through volumes of printer toner and ink just to keep parliamentarians and Canadians from seeing its dark secrets.

As I mentioned earlier, parliamentarians do not take their jobs lightly or without consideration for the impacts on Canadians, that is, most parliamentarians with nothing to hide. The Prime Minister and his insiders are not supreme rulers. They are servants of the people of Canada, not the other way around. That is why we, as a majority of Parliament, adopted the motion to bring to light the documents that may show whether the Prime Minister has served the people or whether it is the other way around, and he has made taxpayer dollars serve him and his appointees.

We do not take lightly the demand for production of documents. We will also not take it lightly when a Prime Minister and his government ignore an order of Parliament, nor should Canadians. All 338 members, as duly elected members of the ridings we represent, are here as the voices of Canadians from coast to coast to coast. If the Prime Minister ignores the will of Parliament, he ignores the will of Canadians.

Where would we expect the leader of a country to ignore the will of the people? I suggest the only places where that would occur is in dictatorship countries, the types of countries that the Prime Minister has said he has a liking for or an admiration of. Dictatorships are where the leader and government have the people serve them. That is not the Canada we knew before the current Prime Minister and government, and it is not the Canada we want to see in the future.

One thing I learned before I entered the political arena is that responsibility cannot be passed on to someone else. In early media training, I learned that, when we make a mistake, it is best to fess up, own up, dress up and admit it.