House of Commons Hansard #371 of the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was goods.

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Refusal of Witness to Respond to Questions from Standing Committee on Public Safety and National SecurityPrivilege

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond to the question of privilege raised by the member for Cowichan—Malahat—Langford on November 7.

I, too, attended the November 5 meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security at which Lauren Chen was called to testify. I have to say that, like all my colleagues from all parties, I was rather shocked and appalled to see Ms. Chen systematically refuse to answer members' questions, despite the fact that she was unanimously and formally ordered to do so. The committee was asking the witness about what I believe is an extremely serious and important issue regarding Russian interference and the disinformation campaign in Canada. Lauren Chen was named in an indictment against two employees of the Russian public broadcaster in the judicial district of New York, in the United States.

I will provide some context. Ms. Chen and her husband, Liam Donovan, own Roaming Millennial Inc., based in Pointe-Claire, Quebec. This business is cited in a 32-page indictment brought a few weeks ago, in September, by the U.S. Attorney General against two Russian employees of the RT television network. These employees are charged with making illegal payments of $10 million to businesses owned by Quebec YouTuber Chen and her husband through a complex network of shell companies. The money went to hire very popular right-wing influencers to disseminate content and messaging reflecting the secret intentions of the Russian government to an American audience, according to the U.S. Justice Department.

Ms. Chen was summoned to appear before a committee. It took several invitations before she finally agreed to come testify. Accompanied by her lawyer, she came on November 5 and read a statement that she had sent us previously. Afterwards, she declined to answer any of the questions put to her by the committee. Ms. Chen was so obstinate in her systematic refusal to answer that she even refused to answer a very simple question that I asked. I asked her for her first and last name. She refused to answer. I asked her for her nationality. Here again she refused to answer. Understandably, the committee members found this somewhat frustrating. We were fully prepared to ask her serious questions about her involvement in Russian disinformation campaigns in Canada, but she refused to answer.

If we recall the House of Commons' tradition and procedural rules associated with parliamentary privilege, persons testifying before a committee enjoy the same protection as members, which is to say free speech so that they can express themselves freely without fear that their words might be used against them in another proceeding. This immunity derives from section 18 of the Constitution Act, 1867, and section 4 of the Parliament of Canada Act. The courts confirmed that this immunity must extend to persons appearing before the House or one of its committees, the aim being to encourage people to communicate all information they possess in a frank and transparent manner. Otherwise, it is clear that Parliament would be unable to carry out its work effectively and unimpeded.

Thus protected, the people who testify before a parliamentary committee must answer the questions asked, save for one exception. A witness may derogate from this rule by raising an objection concerning a question asked by a member of the committee. However, if the committee finds that the question requires a response, the witness must comply and answer, failing which they may be reported to the House. If the committee reports the witness to the House, they may be accused of breach of parliamentary privilege or contempt of parliament. This is what the House decided in the case of Kristian Firth, who refused to answer questions put to him by the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, and whose answers to some questions appeared to the committee to be lies. Here we are referring to the order adopted unanimously by the House of Commons on April 8.

In the Bloc Québécois's opinion, today's matter is akin to a breach of privilege or, at the very least, contempt of Parliament, since Lauren Chen refused to answer any of the committee's questions, although she was fully aware of House procedure and practice. She herself mentioned House practices in her opening speech. Thus, the Bloc Québécois believes it is important that the House seriously discuss the matter so that this type of scenario, which unfortunately appears to be increasing in frequency, does not happen again.

However, the Bloc Québécois finds that the reason provided by Ms. Chen to justify her systematic refusal to answer might require an analysis of whether the immunity relating to freedom of speech extended to Canadian defendants applies before a body having jurisdiction in another country, in this case the United States, considering that Ms. Chen is currently being investigated in a criminal matter in that country following allegations. I am referring to United States v. Kalashnikov et al., 24CR519, (S.D.N.Y. 2024).

Ms. Chen also mentioned that in her preliminary statement. She frequently referred to the possibility of invoking the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution, as is done in that country to avoid answering questions. We know that that does not apply here in Canada. What we can glean from her testimony, or at least from the little she provided as testimony, is that she was afraid that what she said before a House of Commons of Canada committee could be held against her in the United States. In that case, I think it is important to take that into account. We believe that the case should be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Refusal of Witness to Respond to Questions from Standing Committee on Public Safety and National SecurityPrivilege

10:10 a.m.

The Speaker Greg Fergus

I would like to thank the hon. member for Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia.

I will now recognize the hon. member for Kildonan—St. Paul, who also wishes to speak to the question of privilege.

Refusal of Witness to Respond to Questions from Standing Committee on Public Safety and National SecurityPrivilege

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my comments to the question of privilege raised by the member for Cowichan—Malahat—Langford on November 7 concerning the 14th report of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, of which I am vice-chair. I echo many of the comments made by the member of Bloc Québécois, who is also a vice-chair of the committee.

Conservatives are very concerned with the display we saw at the public safety committee on November 5 by Ms. Lauren Chen. The committee is studying the impact of Russian disinformation in Canada. All committees have heard testimony, in this study and others, that Russian interference in Canada is a very serious matter. Russia is looking to sow division and discord in Canada, and it ultimately wants Canada to fail and be weak. What is happening in the western world because of Russia is a very serious matter, and we have been studying that as a priority at the public safety committee over the last few weeks.

I found what happened on November 5 to be quite appalling and an affront to our ability to use accountability tools to hold ministers and others accountable. They are a check on power that we have as official opposition members and members of committee.

Ms. Chen was first invited to willingly come to committee to answer quite serious allegations. There is a United States Department of Justice indictment that involves her company, Tenet Media. The allegations are that her company received $10 million from covert agents from Russia Today for the purpose of spreading Russian propaganda through her platform. It is quite a serious matter and an issue that is at the heart of what we are discussing at committee.

We invited Ms. Chen to committee, and her testimony was welcome by all parties, but she refused to come willingly. Some of the allegations against her company and against her and the covert actions she allegedly engaged in are quite shocking. She invited other influencers to speak and, as the allegations go, failed to inform them where the funding came from and of the influence that Russia Today had on her platform. All of these individuals were sharing their message under Tenet Media, which was being influenced by Russia, according to the allegations. This is a very serious matter that is topical to our study at committee.

Ms. Chen was invited but refused, so the committee unanimously agreed to summon her. When she came, and I have never been witness to this but I know it has happened at other committees, she refused to answer any questions. As the Bloc member pointed out, she asked Ms. Chen her name and she would not even answer that question, let alone important questions we had about the influence of Russia Today, which is the propaganda arm of Russia that is looking to undermine and weaken Canada, and the involvement she had in playing along with it and receiving millions of dollars to do that. These were very important questions that are of primary importance to the health of our democracy and our ability to hold wrongdoers accountable. She refused to answer them.

The NDP member and the Bloc member outlined, and I agree with their assessment, various regulations in House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, 2017, on pages 1078 to 1079, which states: “Witnesses must answer all questions which the committee puts to them.” We agree with that.

I know, Mr. Speaker, that you know procedure better than anyone, other than perhaps the experts sitting at the table in front of you, whom we all rely on, but beyond that, when you are considering this question of privilege, I would ask you to consider the impact your ruling will have. Do we want to allow, as parliamentarians and committee members, a precedent to be set, which I would argue is very dangerous, for the accountability mechanisms we have as parliamentarians? If this is allowed to go ahead and Ms. Chen is not called to the bar or is not held accountable for her lack of responses, what does that say to all other witnesses? What does that say to ministers of any political stripe? What does that say to anyone invited to committee who is a bit uncomfortable or, for whatever reason, does not want to answer questions? What does that really say?

Your ruling will set down that either Parliament believes it is unacceptable and people must come to committee to answer questions or they do not have to if they do not feel like it. I would ask for you to consider what precedent this will set moving forward, because I think it will be quite impactful.

If Ms. Chen gets away with her bad behaviour without a clear reprimand, it will be deeply impactful and concerning for Parliament and for the ability of committees to hold wrongdoers accountable. Again, she has not been convicted of anything. She has not actually been formally charged. What we are saying, and what we are concerned with at committee, is that she took money from Russia to further their propaganda, which aims to undermine Canada and other western actors.

What she was there to talk about is very serious, and we need those answers from her. Regardless of that, if she is allowed to get away without a reprimand from Parliament, as we have seen with Kristian Firth and others, that is a very dangerous precedent to set for accountability. We would be saying, as Parliament, that it is okay if someone comes to committee and does not answer any of our questions.

The committee does incredibly important work. All the committees are seized with critical issues right now. If we have witnesses who come and do not have to answer, what are we all doing this for? What is our duty as parliamentarians at committee? What is our duty as opposition members if people can just show up and say nothing? In our rule books, we have as precedent for hundreds of years that people have to come and answer questions; she did not do that. In fact, I found that it was quite insulting to the institution at large, to parliamentarians at the table who have been duly elected by the Canadian public to fulfill their duties.

We have been appointed to committee. Our duty is to hold people accountable, to gather expert testimony, to finalize reports, to issue recommendations to Parliament, to ensure that Canada and Canadians are well aware of what is going on in these critical issues they are concerned about. Russian disinformation deeply impacts us all, just as interference from China, India, Iran and Pakistan does. This is not a nothing issue. This is a critical issue that has an impact on modern democracies and the foundations and the security of our institutions.

I would ask you to consider, Mr. Speaker, the precedent that your ruling will set. Whatever it is, it will be of paramount importance. Given that all parties support this and have supported it every step of the way, in fact, this is not a partisan issue. This has nothing to do with somebody's political leanings or even with the issue itself, although it is serious, as I have outlined. The question is this: Can people come to committee and disrespect Parliament by saying nothing? I would say no, and I hope that you agree, Mr. Speaker, after you review this and rule on this question of privilege.

Conservatives have supported this. We have been in lockstep with other parties on this. It speaks volumes that we are united on something for once. It is a very serious matter, Mr. Speaker, and I ask that you use the tools at your disposal and at Parliament's disposal to ensure that anyone who is doing this is held accountable.

To conclude on the specific matter Ms. Chen was called to committee about, as a patriotic Canadian and somebody who loves this country and is honoured to serve it in this capacity, I was quite appalled to read that indictment and to think that a fellow Canadian is taking money from a foreign government to undermine the Canadian interest. I was appalled as a parliamentarian to sit across from someone who refused to answer for her own actions, who did not have the integrity to answer for what she had allegedly done. There is a lot in here that sets quite a precedent. Mr. Speaker, I ask you to consider those things holistically and, at the end of the day, consider whether our privilege as parliamentarians has been violated.

When someone is invited to a committee by all members and summoned to answer questions on something of this magnitude of importance, and even if it is any other issue, do we not have the privilege to hear answers to those questions? Is that not a centuries-old tradition? If someone is allowed not to answer, what does that say about the strength of our democracy, the committee process or our ability as duly elected parliamentarians to hold people accountable? It calls into question all of those powers.

This is a much bigger question of our democratic institutions, Mr. Speaker, and I ask that you consider that holistically and really think about the seriousness of the decision you make and the precedent it will set. Ultimately, the Conservatives believe that committees and the powers we have should be used to hold wrongdoers accountable. It is tough to say this in the House because it is a very serious allegation, but someone who may very well be a traitor to this country needs to be held accountable for not coming to committee and answering questions on those allegations. I would ask you to consider that as a patriotic Canadian.

The Conservatives want to see people held accountable. They want to see our powers maintained. They want to see respect for this place maintained. This happens with decisions you are about to make.

Refusal of Witness to Respond to Questions from Standing Committee on Public Safety and National SecurityPrivilege

10:20 a.m.

The Speaker Greg Fergus

I thank the hon. member.

Once again, I would like to thank the hon. member who spoke earlier for her comments on this very serious matter. The Speaker will take into consideration all the comments made by the representatives of the various political parties. I hope that we will soon be hearing from those representatives on this issue.

Use of Props in the HousePrivilegePoints of Order

10:20 a.m.

Green

Mike Morrice Green Kitchener Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a separate point of order. It was raised by the member for Edmonton Strathcona yesterday with respect to pins that are worn in this place. Briefly—

Use of Props in the HousePrivilegePoints of Order

10:20 a.m.

The Speaker Greg Fergus

I thank the hon. member. Yesterday, I heard a couple of interventions on this, and the Chair endeavours to come back to the House as soon as possible. I think the Chair has heard a pretty comprehensive perspective on this.

If he has a new and pertinent approach, I will invite the hon. member to share a short declaration.

The hon. member for Kitchener Centre.

Use of Props in the HousePrivilegePoints of Order

10:20 a.m.

Green

Mike Morrice Green Kitchener Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I understand that this is something you are currently reviewing. I think it is important for you to be aware that, as someone who wears a moosehide pin in the House on a regular basis, I wear the pin most days, all year round, including during the 16 days of action against gender-based violence. I also wear it when I speak in this place with respect to the epidemic of gender-based violence. Mr. Speaker, I encourage you to include that in your consideration of different members in this place who wear pins when they are in fact speaking about the topic related to that pin.

Use of Props in the HousePrivilegePoints of Order

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, with regard to the interventions that were made in the House on this, you were asked to equate a watermelon pin with the poppy, the remembrance poppy. I would hope that no one in this place meant that. I would ask that, in your deliberations, you do not equate the two, Mr. Speaker. The poppy stands as a symbol of the Canadian Armed Forces' contributions to our country and our right to stand in this place free of persecution. That was ridiculous.

Use of Props in the HousePrivilegePoints of Order

10:20 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Mr. Speaker, the intervention from the member for Calgary Nose Hill misrepresented the intervention by the member for Edmonton Strathcona yesterday.

Use of Props in the HousePrivilegePoints of Order

10:25 a.m.

The Speaker Greg Fergus

We are now getting into debate, and I see that all the members are rising to participate. I have heard all the interventions I need to hear in order to come back to the House with some guidance on this issue.

I see that the hon. member for Calgary Rocky Ridge is rising. I hope his point of order will be equally new, pertinent and brief, as well as not entering into new debate.

Use of Props in the HousePrivilegePoints of Order

November 19th, 2024 / 10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, my point of order is different. Yesterday, you made a ruling and informed the House that you would come back. I am just confused because, this morning, you have allowed debate about that on which you had already made a ruling. Mr. Speaker, I wonder which rulings you are allowed to revisit and keep talking about and which are actually firm and have to be complied with.

Use of Props in the HousePrivilegePoints of Order

10:25 a.m.

The Speaker Greg Fergus

There was no ruling yesterday. I had indicated to the House that I would come back with some guidance or with a ruling if necessary, and I will. Some hon. members wanted to raise some issues. I allowed them the opportunity to raise issues that were pertinent, brief and new. I thank the hon. member for his intervention.

National Strategy for Universal Eye Care ActRoutine Proceedings

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-419, An Act to establish a national strategy for universal eye care.

Mr. Speaker, today I am pleased to introduce the national strategy for a universal eye care act, with thanks to the hon. member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley for seconding the bill.

The legislation would mandate the development of a national strategy to support universal access to eye care, vision correction and vision aids by the Minister of Health. Currently, access to eye care varies widely across Canada, resulting in inequitable outcomes. More than 70% of private eye care expenses are incurred by Canadians out of pocket, putting a significant strain on household budgets.

The bill is the result of the vision of a talented high school student from my riding of Vancouver Kingsway, Delina Nguyen from Windermere Secondary School. Delina is this year's winner of my annual Create Your Canada contest, which is held in high schools across Vancouver Kingsway.

I hope all parliamentarians will support her vision for a better Canada and work with the NDP to create truly head-to-toe public, universal access to health care for everyone. I thank Delina.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

International TradeCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I move that the 21st report of the Standing Committee on International Trade, presented on Wednesday, October 30, be concurred in.

The number of shipments seized at Canadian customs, all regions combined, for use of forced labour is zero. That does not include the one shipment that was seized in 2021 and then released following an appeal by the importer. In comparison, Washington seizes billions of dollars' worth of goods, and all from a single region, Xinjiang.

Canada is absolutely lax. In March 2023, Ottawa released its budget. It announced the government's intention to “introduce legislation by 2024 to eradicate forced labour from Canadian supply chains to strengthen the import ban on goods produced using forced labour.” This is written in black and white on page 171 of the English version and page 192 of the French version. Until proven otherwise, we are in 2024. No bill was introduced before the end of 2023. This is another promise broken and a promise immediately rehashed.

In March 2024, in its new budget, Ottawa indicates yet again its intention “to introduce legislation in 2024 to eradicate forced labour from Canadian supply chains and to strengthen the import ban on goods produced with forced labour.” Again, it is written in black and white. No need to believe me, anyone can read it on page 369 of the French version and page 320 of the English version.

I had this motion adopted in committee to ensure that members could call out this broken promise and find it unacceptable and to stress that time is of the essence. The motion was not supported by the parties, it was adopted by the majority in committee. The Conservatives voted in favour of the motion and so did the NDP. Now, we are moving the motion in the House because there is a month left. The House must clearly state that it considers this inaction to be deplorable and that the use of practices that violate the fundamental rights of workers, vulnerable people and children is totally unacceptable.

I remind you once again that, in March 2023, they said the same thing, that they would present something before the end of the year. I proposed a motion before the Standing Committee on International Trade suggesting that we write a letter to the government to remind it of its commitment to introduce a bill before 2023 and demand an explanation for its inaction. This motion was unanimously adopted, but it was never acted on. The government did not deign to reply.

This same government then shamelessly did a cut-and-paste in its next budget, as if it were business as usual, simply changing “end of 2023” to “end of 2024”. It simply changed the deadline before which it would not even think of lifting a finger. We have had it. Parliament must stand up and clearly state, by adopting our motion, that this will not work this time. Consumers do not want blood on their hands.

I will make a few comparisons. United States Customs and Border Protection has the power to refuse waivers for goods it reasonably believes were manufactured through forced labour. These refusals can target a company, a region or a country.

What follows is important. The onus is on the importers to convince United States Customers and Border Protection that the goods were not made through forced labour. In addition, in December 2021, the United States passed a law preventing forced labour by Uyghurs, which creates a rebuttable presumption that all imported goods, products, items and merchandise grown, mined, produced or manufactured wholly or in part in the Xinjiang Uyghur autonomous region, or by companies that appear on a list prepared by the U.S. government are manufactured through the use of forced labour and are denied entry into the United States.

They take for granted that everything that comes from the list or the region comes from forced labour. The importer bears the burden of proof, because the United States' rebuttable presumption also applies to goods manufactured in or shipped to China and other countries that include materials or inputs manufactured in Xinjiang or that transit that country. The burden of proof is therefore on the importer.

In Canada, we just have the customs tariff as the legislative framework that allows customs officials not to consider goods as banned, but rather to determine the tariff classification of the imported goods. This is done on a case-by-case basis, based on the likelihood that forced labour was used according to the information available at the time of importation. Therefore, giving the Canada Border Services Agency the responsibility of screening goods amounts to assuming that the use of forced labour to produce those goods can be determined by a flashlight inspection of the cargo. That is really what that means. The brilliant result of this approach is that nothing has ever been seized at the Canadian border. The federal government allows companies to act with virtual impunity.

This applies not just to imports, but, if we consider a broader spectrum and perspective, it also applies to behaviours, accountability and due diligence of Canadian firms abroad. In 2023, the House of Commons passed, by a majority, BillS-211. At the time, Ottawa framed this as a bold move, but at the end of the day it has proven to be toothless. The only thing the bill did was introduce a reporting requirement but only for businesses with 250 or more employees with significant active income. They are only required to prepare a small annual report on the measures taken on forced labour and child labour. That is the only matter covered here. Some will say that a business that refuses to produce this report could be fined, and that is certainly true, but there is nothing stopping a business from putting out a report stating that it did not take any measures. It can simply send that off and it has met its requirement, full stop. It can do the same thing the following year too. That is the extent of it. I would argue that this law is as useless as the Senate that created and introduced it. Producing a report, even one stating that nothing was done, does not exactly amount to a due diligence law.

What we have here is a typically Canadian attitude, reflecting the same culture of symbolism. Ottawa would have been completely free to sit on its purported laurels, had there been any laurels to sit on. That is why I voted against this empty shell of a bill at the time, along with my colleagues from the Bloc Québécois and the NDP.

Instead, I am co-sponsoring Bill C-262, which comes from the NDP. We have always said that when the idea is good, we will have no problem supporting it, and so I am pleased to co-sponsor this bill, which covers all human rights and businesses of all sizes. It seeks to involve the affected communities and, above all, it provides recourse to the victims. That is what an actual due diligence law to address the matter would look like.

Ottawa may not carefully screen goods entering the country through its approach, which makes customs officers responsible for seizures and removes the onus of proof from importers, but, as I have just shown, it is no more serious about the behaviours of Canadian firms abroad. This is also evident in the trade agreements submitted to us. Lofty principles are bandied about, but without any obligations attached. Ideas and international conventions are referenced, but there are no obligations or genuine accountability. For example, in the case of the Canada-Ukraine free trade agreement, the only amendment received in committee was mine. It stated that this chapter was fine and good, but the Minister of International Trade should have to report annually to the House on what is going on over there in terms of human rights and corporate behaviour.

The same applies to this office called the Canadian Ombudsperson for Responsible Enterprise. Basically, it is a complaints bureau, a pretty apathetic response to some truly scandalous behaviour. Its mandate is to “review a complaint that is submitted by a Canadian company that believes it is the subject of an unfounded human rights abuse allegation”.

When the position was created in 2018, the Canadian government pledged that this officer would have the investigative powers to require businesses to produce documents and to compel them to testify. Both of these powers strike me as important in the case of an inquiry. I would even say that they are fundamental. As I stand here today, these powers have yet to be assigned.

In fact, the Mining Association of Canada is opposed to this and declared it in a public statement. We take comfort in the fact that the ombudsperson has a lovely website, but we would prefer the office to have the capacity to require entities to produce documents and compel their testimony.

In 2009, a Bloc bill seeking the creation of an extraterritorial activities review commission for Canadian businesses died on the Order Paper. This politically independent commission would not have simply received complaints but would have been able to launch its own inquiries. Even without a complaint, it could have launched its own inquiries and publicly called on the Department of Foreign Affairs to withdraw its support of offending mining corporations. This would have represented a truly effective mechanism. Unsurprisingly, Parliament did not go along with it.

I myself attempted, in my capacity as member, to file a motion seeking the unanimous consent of the House of Commons to establish a genuine institution to monitor the behaviours of Canadian businesses abroad. Needless to say, the motion did not receive unanimous consent.

If I bring up the mining companies, it is because I find them particularly interesting. Even though Canada can be characterized as an imperialistic, colonial and world-dominating country, it is still a sieve, a haven for foreign interests. Today, roughly three-quarters of the world's mining companies are Canadian, and the vast majority of them are listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange, meaning they can speculate on the value of mines. Canada is just a flag of convenience for companies, who need only open a post office box to be considered Canadian. A number of these mining companies are Canadian in name only. To take advantage of Ottawa's lax legislation, any investor can found their company with Canadian joint shareholders, but can conduct mining operations in a developing country.

A number of businesses with questionable behaviours receive financial support from Export Development Canada, whose accountability mechanisms are very limited. Its representatives were questioned in committee. Let us say that they do not exactly dig deep to learn where the money is going. There is also diplomatic support on the part of Canadian embassies.

In a report published in 2022, the Justice and Corporate Accountability Project mentions, for example, serious acts of violence at the Marlin mine in Guatemala. This mine was acquired in 2006 by Goldcorp, a Canadian mining company. There were credible allegations of environmental contamination and harm to human health. According to the report, the activities of certain Canadian public servants in 2010 and 2011 seeking to defend the interests of Goldcorp undermined the efforts of communities, mostly Mayan indigenous communities, to access the inter-American human rights system and its support to defend their rights. Canada is therefore providing both diplomatic and financial support.

While Canada is currently negotiating a free trade deal with Ecuador, we might ask why the Canadian ambassador there has refused to meet with the country's indigenous businesses but immediately agreed to meet with mining representatives. He did not have a problem with that. That same ambassador, who did not seem to appreciate my questions when he came to testify before the Standing Committee on International Trade, frequently rolling his eyes, even rejected the concerns of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights about the troubling unrest in two regions where police repression was especially abusive, particularly to ensure the imposition of Canadian mining investments suspected of having an impact on water contamination and social division.

There is another case, which made the news a few weeks ago, concerning the behaviour of Barrick Gold, another Canadian mining company, in Tanzania. We keep seeing examples of this. It is a serious issue. We hear about the eviction of villagers and other outrageous incidents. In November 2022, legal action was brought against Barrick Gold in Ontario following allegations of brutal murders, shootings and torture committed by police officers responsible for watching the mine. This is the seventh case of human rights violations filed by foreign plaintiffs against a Canadian mining company since 2010.

Since 1997, nine complaints have been filed in Canadian courts against mining companies following allegations surrounding their activities abroad. These cases involve assault, shootings, gang rapes of local indigenous women by the mine's security officers, the use of slaves, and the contamination of a river with mining waste.

During human rights missions to Chile in 2020 and Colombia in 2021, I was able to hear first-hand accounts from affected communities detailing water pollution, air contamination, security militias firing on civilians at point-blank range and evictions of local residents. In Colombia, I personally witnessed a mining company's private security detail directing traffic on a public road. Is this normal? In 2016, a report entitled “The ‘Canada Brand’” found that violence associated with Canadian mining companies in Latin America had led to 44 deaths, 30 of which were classified as targeted.

There is no shortage of terrifying stories. I do not have enough time to go through them all, but there are definitely a lot of them. Another report, released in 2009, noted that “Canadian companies have been the most significant group involved in unfortunate incidents in the developing world” and that “Canadian companies are more likely to be engaged in community conflict [and] environmental and unethical behaviour”. The Canadian Centre for the Study of Resource Conflict reported that Canada held the record for the most violations among developed countries operating mines in developing countries.

A 2016 report by York University researchers documented incidents from 2000 to 2015 that were corroborated by at least two independent sources. It found 44 deaths, 403 injuries and 709 cases of criminalization. There was a widespread geographical distribution of violence, since deaths occurred in 11 countries, injuries were suffered in 13 countries, and criminalization occurred in 12 countries. Interestingly, the report notes that Canadian companies that are listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange do not include reports of violence in their mandatory reports on company performance.

The fight against human rights violations committed for the sake of profit will require a whole spectrum of solutions. I have some ideas I would like to share, even though I know that not everyone in the House will agree with them: requiring importers to prove that their goods were not produced with forced labour; passing real due diligence legislation, like Bill C-262, to crack down harder on Canadian firms operating abroad; offering victims genuine recourse; giving the ombudsperson more powers, in the absence of a real, politically independent commission capable of launching its own investigations, which we think would have been the ideal solution; ending Ottawa's diplomatic policy of complicity; and taking a closer look at where Export Development Canada's money is going in other countries.

These are ideas. Not everyone in the House would agree with them. I have talked to the other parties about this. We will not all agree on what we would like to see in a future bill. However, we can agree that we cannot judge what we have not seen and that, at this point in time, we should have seen it a year ago. I therefore call on the entire House to clearly and strongly remind the government of its promise, which it has yet to fulfill, to table a bill by the end of the year. Consumers do not want blood on their hands.

International TradeCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:45 a.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the discussion on this, which we will no doubt be having over the next few hours. I am interested in getting the member's thoughts in regard to Bill S-211, the forced labour bill, which passed and took effect. It does all of us a great service. We know some of the results are very encouraging, and it is a wonderful, significant step forward, given that there was nothing prior to it.

Beyond some of the comments he has already put on the record, could the member explain why he is not content with that, or why he wants to see it expanded?

International TradeCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:45 a.m.

Bloc

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am puzzled by my colleague's question, because I did address that point. I devoted several minutes to talking about Bill S-211.

That bill that does not cover all human rights. I would remind my colleagues that the UN recognizes human rights as a whole, whereas that bill addresses only forced labour by adults and children, which I obviously agree with, but which is not enough, and only applies to companies with 250 or more employees and significant revenues. It does not require them to take measures, but merely to report on the measures that have been taken. A company could just write: “We did not put any measures in place, thank you, goodbye, see you next year”.

Evidently, I voted against this bill. I do not regret voting against it, because I knew that this would happen, that we would be told for the next 10 years that they did something and that everything is great now. It is not enough. That bill is entirely useless.

International TradeCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Mr. Speaker, the report on forced labour uses very strong language to denounce the government's failures. It describes the government's failures to take seriously the issue of forced labour as deplorable.

I note that in the committee meeting where this report was adopted, the Liberal chair of that committee, the member for Humber River—Black Creek, voted in favour of the motion. We have a Liberal member voting in favour of a motion that calls her own government's performance on the issue of forced labour absolutely deplorable.

However, it is no wonder Liberal members find the actions of their own government deplorable on this file as it relates to Uyghur forced labour in particular, about which the member spoke. The Americans have been so far ahead, stopping many shipments of goods over concerns about forced labour from the Uyghur regions, but Canada has not stopped a single shipment. I believe this puts us in breach of our obligations under CUSMA to have all partners to that agreement act to combat forced labour. Therefore, this is going to be a challenge not only to us morally, but also in Canada-U.S. relations in that we are not doing our part.

I would like to hear the member's reflections, in particular on the impact on Canada-U.S. relations of the failure of the government to take the issue of forced labour seriously.

International TradeCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:50 a.m.

Bloc

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I need to start by clarifying something for my colleague. The Liberal chair did not vote in favour of the motion. She was absent that day. His Conservative colleague, the committee's vice-chair, was presiding that day. The vote came down to a tie, and it was his colleague who voted in favour of the motion. I thank him for that. I thank the Conservatives for supporting our motion. I hope that they will also support this motion, enabling a majority of the House to clearly express its dissatisfaction with the government.

As I said, the situation is unacceptable. No shipments from any region have been seized, while the Americans have seized billions of dollars' worth of merchandise from a single region. Honestly, the comparison is absolutely ludicrous. My colleague is right to note that it is not just a moral issue. Of course, there are many human rights organizations, and the practices we are talking about are totally immoral at every level. However, there is also a geopolitical and economic aspect. There is the matter of the confidence that our neighbours to the south have in us. Everyone keeps saying that there is going to be a lot of upheaval soon. There is a lot of uncertainty. I think we need to start proving to the United States that we do not just import Chinese goods no questions asked.

International TradeCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:50 a.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot for his speech.

It has been a pleasure working with the member on the international trade file. I am sorry that I am not on that file anymore, but we have been through all of this together.

I am glad he mentioned Bill S-211, which the NDP also thought was completely inadequate. The Bloc and the NDP voted against it, while the Conservatives and Liberals voted in favour. The member supported Bill C-262, brought forward by the NDP member for New Westminster—Burnaby, which would be a significant and great improvement on what the government is doing.

There are so many things I would like to ask my colleague, because I know he has a lot of good things to say about the subject, but I will hone in on one thing that I know the international trade committee was studying, which is the free trade agreement with Ecuador.

The federal government is now negotiating with Ecuador, and it is clear that it wants to put in investor-state dispute mechanisms to protect Canadian mining companies in their fight against indigenous people, against minorities and people living on the land in Ecuador. This goes against the real sense of what Canada should be doing in the world.

International TradeCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:50 a.m.

Bloc

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, my colleague touched on a number of areas.

We support Bill C‑262. I am a supporter and co-sponsor of the bill, and I thank the NDP for bringing it forward. We support this legislation and, as co-sponsor, I fully and freely endorse it. It is a perfect example of genuine due diligence legislation.

The Conservatives and the Liberals voted for Bill S‑211. As I said at the end of my speech, we are unlikely to see eye to eye on what elements should be included in legislation on importing goods produced using forced labour or on eliminating forced labour from supply chains. I respect that. That is democracy. We will have a chance to debate the issue in due course.

Today, we need to refocus the debate around a simple reminder. The House has to send a clear message to the government that it broke its promise and that it has to bring us something. We keep hearing that governing is all about planning. The government needs to bring us a bill so that we can debate it. Our opinions will probably differ, but we should at least remind it that the promise it made has not been kept.

Regarding Ecuador, my colleague was there, too. A lot of promises were made and a lot of things were said. As I said in my speech, when the Canadian ambassador appeared before the committee, he could not explain or justify the violence there. He could not explain why he went to meet with mining companies, but not with indigenous communities. This situation does need to be monitored very closely. I even had some women from Ecuador come and speak at a press conference a few weeks ago, and they urged us to pay closer attention to what is happening there.

International TradeCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:55 a.m.

Bloc

Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate my colleague on his excellent work, his meticulousness and his powerful speech. I would like him to speak more about the fact that Canada tends to be all talk and no action. It makes lofty promises but does not follow through. There is a lot of tearful rhetoric, but in reality, real abuse is taking place. As we speak, real people are being subjected to rape and forced labour.

I would like to give my colleague the opportunity to really hammer home this message.

International TradeCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:55 a.m.

Bloc

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would need a good two or three hours because there is so much to say about that. I have just been asked a question by a colleague from my own party, and I am tempted to pretend that I am reading from notes and to say that I thank him for his hard work and his very relevant question.

However, I did not know the question in advance and I do not have an answer written down. There are so many things to say about that issue and about so many similar issues. I can link back to a question that one of my Conservative colleagues asked me earlier.

Setting aside the moral and common sense aspects, this country is allergic to the concept of having a strategy, to the idea of using levers and having a government that can provide policy direction regarding forced labour, foreign investments and many other issues. All of that is interrelated. Washington must think we are complete bozos. Actually, I should not have said “we”, because “we” includes the person who is speaking, and I do not consider myself a Canadian. Anyway, Canada is seen as a weak country and a laggard in all of these areas when it comes to policy. The issue that we are talking about is a matter of North American geopolitical security.

International TradeCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:55 a.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, forced labour is not something new; it has been around for many years. When I listen to the questions and answers, it is a bit much to hear a Conservative talk about forced labour, when Stephen Harper and the current leader of the Conservative Party did absolutely nothing to deal with it. I will be fair: When Senate Bill S-211 was before us, the Conservatives joined us in passing it. At the very least, Conservatives have done some positive things in working with the government and recognizing the issue of forced labour.

It is interesting that we are now having the debate on the issue primarily because of what I have often referred to as a multi-million dollar game the Conservatives are playing. As opposed to other opposition parties participating directly in the filibuster game, they are bringing forward motions for concurrence. I can appreciate the frustration other opposition parties are feeling because day after day for weeks now, the Conservative Party has filibustered, putting the self-interest of the leader of the Conservative Party and the Conservative Party in general ahead of the interests of Canadians.

The filibustering prevents us debating things such as the legislative agenda that would assist Canadians in many different ways, whether it is protecting children against the Internet, transferring military court to civilian court on issues of sexual violence, Canadian citizenship or the fall economic statement. These are just part of the government agenda.

There is also Private Members' Business and there are opposition day motions. I suggest the current debate would have been a great debate for an opposition day motion. I truly believe that, because at the end of the day, forced labour, as I said, is nothing new, even though Stephen Harper and the current leader of the Conservative Party ignored it 100% during their tenure. It would have been a great discussion to have, and in the end it would have been great to have a positive resolution to it.

We have raised the issue in budgets, as has been pointed out. The motion itself went before the standing committee, and I compliment the efforts of the standing committee with respect to the people it listened to and its coming up with a report, but I would remind members that we have made a commitment to bring forward government legislation that would look at improving Bill S-211.

Of course we have to look at why we are having a difficult time getting legislation through the House of Commons, but that is not the fault of the Government of Canada or even the Bloc or the New Democrats. That responsibility falls on the shoulders of the leader of the official opposition. We will continue to look at ways to bring in the legislation that we have committed to.

Hopefully there will be the same sense of enthusiasm as with the first Conservative question when we bring in legislation, and there will be a warmth to the idea to allow debate to occur and possibly even to allow legislation to go to committee and ultimately pass through third reading and be given royal assent. What a wonderful idea that would be, but somehow we have to dislodge the leader of the Conservative Party's belief that Parliament is here to serve him and him alone. We need to understand that Parliament is here to serve Canadians first and foremost, and then we will be able to ultimately do more for Canadians.

On the issue of forced labour, one does not need to expand on the literally millions of individuals around the world who are affected. In virtually every country, there is forced labour being put into place. We need to recognize, as we have as a government, that the government can play a significant role.

There are some people who have absolutely no time for the Senate. I for one see great value in the Senate, and Bill S-211 is a good example of that. When the Senate of Canada passed that legislation through its system, it came to the House of Commons. First reading of the bill took place on May 3, 2022, and second reading was then completed on June 1, 2022. It then went to committee in November 2022. Report stage was completed on March 6, 2023, and third reading was completed on May 3, 2023. Royal assent was given shortly thereafter, and the legislation took effect in January of this year.

That is the type of thing that can take place, not only on Senate legislation but also on government legislation. Now that there is a leader of the Conservative Party who puts his interests first and foremost, the primary difference is that legislation is being put on hold more and more often. This is a direct result of his self-interest.

There are many pieces of legislation before the House and many that are going to be introduced to the House that deserve the merit not only of debate but also of going through the process and ultimately becoming law. I would suggest that Canada is a better society as a direct result of Bill S-211. Think of the results there have been with Bill S-211. Before the legislation passed through the House with the support of the Liberals and the Conservatives, there was nothing really in place to report forced labour.

As a direct result of the bill's getting royal assent and January being the date the legislation came into effect, there have been literally thousands and thousands of businesses or companies that have had to report in on the issue of forced labour in the supply chains. We have now identified that a very high percentage of those that have reported in are raising concerns in regard to forced labour in the supply chain. For the first time, the government actually has a much better sense of the degree to which forced labour is being used here in the Canadian supply chain.

The issue of forced labour is something the government takes seriously. When we were having the trade negotiations with the United States, on the one hand the Conservatives were crying and wanting to capitulate and say, “It does not matter; just get an agreement.” That was the Conservative approach to the Donald Trump first trade discussions that were taking place: Capitulate, do whatever it is that the United States wants and just get an agreement signed.

We worked very hard on CUSMA. Canada has, I would argue, the very best individual abilities in the world in terms of negotiating trade agreements, and I do not say that lightly. No government in the history of Canada has signed off on more trade agreements than the current government has. We do that because we recognize the true value of trade for Canada.

If we want to strengthen Canada's middle class and those aspiring to be a part of it, we have to focus attention on trade. Through that, working with Canadians and working with the different partners, record numbers of new jobs having been created, virtually double the number of jobs that Stephen Harper created in his nine years of governance.

With respect to how the issue has been evolving, we can look at the CUSMA deal and see that within it, we negotiated to prohibit importing goods made by forced labour. Does that mean it is a perfect deal? No one is saying that; there is always room for improvement. When we sit down with President-elect Trump in the future, members can know that we will have Canadian interests in our minds and heart. Unlike the Conservatives, who will advocate to capitulate based on their previous negotiations, we will ensure that the deal is in the best interests of Canadians. We have the record to clearly demonstrate this as a government that has signed off on far more trade agreements not only than Stephen Harper but also more than in the history of Canada.

People understand and know how important trade is between Canada and the United States. When we talk about jobs, we are talking about hundreds of thousands of good-quality Canadian jobs that are dependent on successful negotiations, and Canadians need to be aware that it is the current government and Prime Minister that got and signed off on the trade agreement known as CUSMA with the United States. It was the Conservatives who wanted us to capitulate and give the Americans whatever they wanted. It is because of our experience in dealing with trade agreements that we were able to achieve what we received. Within that, we talked about labour.

Interestingly, the House will remember one of the most recent trade agreements that we signed off on was the Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement update. We will remember that, because the leader of the Conservative Party actually voted against it and instructed his minions to follow suit and vote against it. I withdraw the word “minions” just in case some people are a little offended by it. The Conservatives voted against a trade agreement. What is really interesting is that the very first trade agreement that the Conservatives, from what I can recall, ever voted against was the Canada-Ukraine trade agreement update.

We were talking earlier about a question of privilege about the influence that Russia is having. There is a story about how Russian influencers are trying to say all these bad things about our Prime Minister in an attempt to prop up the Conservative Party of Canada. There is an interesting connection there, and we will have to wait and see.

I would love to see this issue go to the standing committee. I would love the opportunity to see to what degree we would have interference affecting the Conservative Party going into the next election. However, I digress somewhat.

I believe that when we look at where we go from here, whether it is with respect to budgetary measures, legislative measures or dealing with the issue of forced labour, we continue to move forward. That is why the minister has provided assurances, as instructed by the Prime Minister in the form of mandate letters, that we will put into place legislation that will enhance and protect the interests of Canadians. We know the values we have say that we have to look at our supply chains and deal with the forced labour issue. That is something the Government of Canada is prepared to do in a very real and tangible way. That is why we have maintained the commitment that we will, in fact, be bringing in legislation to that effect before the end of the year.

I have three minutes to go. That is not enough time. At the end of the day, we could talk about trade, supply lines and related issues like forced labour, for many hours. As a government, more so than the Conservative government ever did, we understand how, by looking at trade and international trade, we can build a stronger and healthier middle class while at the same time dealing with the social issues that Canadians are concerned about. With respect to issues such as forced labour, in particular in areas like mining and manufacturing, as the Prime Minister has clearly shown, we can do both. The numbers show that, through the policies we have put into place that were driven by budgetary and legislative measures, we have built a healthier middle class, especially in these economic times, which can be a challenge for many of the constituents we represent.

The nice thing is that things are getting better. Interest rates are going down. Affordability is so much better. The inflation rate is below 2%. We are doing, in comparison with other countries, exceptionally well. However, that does not mean that we cannot do better. That is why we have a Prime Minister, a government and members of the Liberal caucus who continue to persist every day in improving conditions for Canadians. That is where our focus is, unlike the self-serving interests and focus of the Conservative leader and the Conservative caucus today.

Having said all that, I move:

That the question be now put.

International TradeCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:15 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker Chris d'Entremont

The motion is in order.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Calgary Nose Hill.

International TradeCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am wondering why the government is so eager to move on from debate on this issue. Certainly, it is an important motion that has been put forward on behalf of my colleagues. I do not understand why the government is so eager to move on. What does it have to hide?