House of Commons Hansard #383 of the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was women.

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Alleged Intimidation during Proceedings of the HousePrivilegeOrders of the Day

December 5th, 2024 / 6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Madam Speaker, I am rising to respond to the question of privilege raised by the member for London—Fanshawe on November 29, specifically as it relates to the taking of the vote.

I am, obviously, not able to comment on what happened in the opposition lobby.

I believe it is extremely important that decorum be upheld in the House, particularly during votes. The member cited both House of Commons Procedure and Practice and Standing Order 16(1) in her intervention, which clearly point to the prohibition on making noise or causing a disturbance during votes. This is a rule that should be upheld. Not only do members of Parliament have the right to hear their votes being cast, they also have the right to be free of intimidation and harassment during the taking of these votes.

Unfortunately, the actions of Conservative MPs on the night of November 28 did not live up to these expectations. I hope the Speaker will take a close look at what occurred and respond accordingly.

Alleged Intimidation during Proceedings of the HousePrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:10 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I appreciate the additional feedback that the hon. deputy government House leader has provided. We will certainly take it under advisement as we deliberate on the question of privilege.

The House resumed consideration of the motion, of the amendment as amended and of the amendment to the amendment.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Madam Speaker, six months ago, the House of Commons ordered the production of all documents from the federal government related to the corruption and cronyism uncovered in the Sustainable Development Technology Canada program, a.k.a. the Liberals' green slush fund. At least $400 million was improperly paid, and police are investigating. Conflicts of interest and even laws were ignored or violated by program officials. SDTC was a get-rich scheme for well-connected consultants.

The Liberals have refused to comply with the order from Parliament, which is empowered to oversee the government. Indeed, it is the primary reason we are all elected to this place. Because of this, the chamber is gridlocked. The Liberals must produce the green slush fund documents without redactions, so Canadians can get a full picture of how their tax dollars are mismanaged.

I detailed the deeply troubling mismanagement by senior officials of this program on October 22. I am back tonight because the Liberals just do not listen to common sense, nor are they ready to uphold the principles of Parliament.

I also serve as chairman of the House of Commons public accounts committee, which has been actively investigating the rot that has taken hold of this once-functioning agency. Our committee has discovered how deep it goes, and it is deeper than we previously imagined. That is why, almost every week, we see at committee that the Liberals and their coalition partner, the NDP, are working to end our investigation into the green slush fund. In recent weeks—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:10 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

The hon. member for Edmonton Griesbach is rising on a point of order.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Madam Speaker, the member knows well that the NDP supported this motion multiple times. I was a member on public accounts when we supported the investigation—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:15 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

This is a point of debate. The hon. member can maybe ask that during questions and comments. Again, I want to remind members to please quote the Standing Orders when they want to rise.

The hon. member for New Westminster—Burnaby is also rising on a point of order.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Madam Speaker, our Standing Orders reference the fact that members cannot knowingly mislead the House, but the member is knowingly misleading the House.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Madam Speaker, on another point of order, the Standing Orders also state that we cannot call another member a liar. We cannot do indirectly what we cannot do directly, so—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:15 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I did not hear that anybody was calling anyone, directly or indirectly, what the hon. member indicated. This has been raising some debate. I just want to remind members to please be careful. I want to ask the hon. member for Edmonton Griesbach to please settle down. He does not have the floor anymore; I have not recognized him. I would just ask members to please be respectful if something is being said that is causing disorder in the House. Certainly, I ask members to please be judicious in what they are talking about and the words they are using.

The hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Madam Speaker, I look forward to the question from the now former member of the public accounts committee, where things have changed since his departure. The Liberal and NDP members at public accounts have introduced a closure motion to cut off debate. This is despite the fact that, in recent weeks, we learned even more about the enrichment of personal financial interests by Liberal-appointed officials overseeing SDTC as well as other benefactors.

For example, the radical Liberal environment minister joined the cabinet, and after that his shares in Cycle Capital skyrocketed. This was not a stroke of luck. It was a direct consequence of the abuse of his public office to funnel more taxpayer money into Cycle Capital through the Liberal green slush fund. Since the environment minister's appointment in 2019, another $17 million has flown into the company. This double-dealing is totally unethical, but apparently allowed under the Liberals.

Our committee has asked the minister to appear for the last two months to answer questions from members, but he will not. What we have seen over and over again is the minister trying to dodge this accountability, to stonewall and to hide from the public accounts committee. I know the environment minister has appeared at other committees. However, when our clerk contacted his office and offered any date over the last two months, we were told it was not possible due to scheduling issues with his calendar.

The minister believes he is above Parliament. He believes the repeat abuse of tax dollars should not be questioned. That is the heart of the matter as to why we are here tonight and why this Parliament is dysfunctional under the Liberals. They too do not believe they have to be accountable to this place, which is why they are wrongly withholding documents that Parliament has ordered. They are, in fact, engaging in a huge cover-up to prevent Canadians from knowing how this program operated, how it was broken and who benefited from it.

When the House of Commons ordered the production of papers related to the scandal, the government used every trick in the book to keep the truth from being known. The Prime Minister's Office instructed departments to use the Privacy Act to censor documents, even though the law clearly states the Privacy Act cannot be used to withhold documents from Parliament. This is not transparency. This is the total opposite. This is obstruction and it is a direct affront to the principles of democracy.

This leads me to the rot that was fostered by Liberal appointees like Annette Verschuren, who was appointed by Navdeep Bains, the former minister of industry, over the objections of the previous CEO of the SDTC program. What followed was not a management of conflicts, but a systematic looting of taxpayer funds. A shocking 82% of the transactions sampled by the Auditor General were in a direct conflict of interest. A staggering $400 million approved by the board benefited their own companies.

Liberal Minister Bains chose Ms. Verschuren, despite the fact that her company was already doing business with SDTC and was in a conflict of interest. However, Mr. Bains told the committee he does not remember any of this. I do not know about anyone in this room, but if I was tasked with making an appointment for a billion-dollar program that gave out tax money, I would take some notes. If a committee had questions about it, I think I would be in a position to answer.

Of course, the value of Mr. Verschuren's investments dramatically increased thanks to SDTC funding. Practically overnight, the company's value exploded. It was not because of the technology it produced, a competitive process or even the patents it owned, but because of an injection of tax dollars. Even when these glaring conflicts were brought to light, what did the Liberals do? They did nothing.

Senior executives at SDTC like Ziyad Rahme refused to even address the issue of bonuses for those who oversaw these corrupt dealings. He dodged the question no less than seven times at committee, stating vaguely that any bonuses would comply with employment law. However, the truth is that, under the Liberals, overseeing a billion-dollar slush fund that enriches insiders does not just earn someone a salary; it earns them a bonus.

I want to thank the Auditor General, who has been relentless in her efforts to ensure that the truth was brought to light. However, it is now up to parliamentarians to ask tough questions and to receive answers from the government that continues to stonewall us.

The government's ongoing cover-up has paralyzed Parliament and has obstructed the truth from reaching Canadians. The former deputy minister responsible for SDTC, John Knubley, also appeared before the public accounts committee, and he gave a convenient story about not being aware of the many conflicts of interest. He said it was his deputy's responsibility. The top civil servant washed his hands of it.

Meanwhile, the assistant deputy minister he was referring to, Andrew Noseworthy, who attended every single board meeting where monies were dispersed, where Liberals were funnelling money to other insiders, to their own companies, was the department's supposed eyes and ears on the board. However, he claims he did not report obvious conflicts of interest because he was “not a lawyer.” This is absolutely unacceptable.

The position of a senior government official is to protect the interests of taxpayers, not to turn a blind eye to corruption and obvious conflicts. We must ask ourselves how many more programs under the Liberal government are being mismanaged in this way.

SDTC was a billion-dollar fund riddled with conflicts of interest, a fund that was meant to advance technology, not enrich Liberal insiders, yet here we are, finding out that no one, from ministers to political appointments to senior bureaucrats, is accountable. It is clear what we are dealing with, a dirty trio of fraud, corruption and lies. Hand-picked board members have fleeced Canadian taxpayers using a simple scheme: get on a board that approves government funding; own shares in a company; tell that company to apply for funding; approve that funding as a board member; and profit, big time.

The Liberal insiders turned SDTC into their personal piggy bank. This is not just a story of mismanagement. It is a story of corruption that reaches the very top of the Prime Minister's office. Indeed, the PMO's previous director of appointments, involved with the decision to select Ms. Verschuren, despite all her conflicts, is nowhere to be found, has disappeared and, today, cannot be found to be summoned to committee.

To my colleagues on the government bench, we all remember the Aga Khan scandal, when the Prime Minister took illegal vacations to a billionaire's island. We all remember the SNC-Lavalin scandal, when Liberals fired their own colleague for standing up to the Prime Minister's pressure. We all remember the WE Charity scandal, when millions of dollars were paid to a supposed charity that paid, of course, members of the Trudeau family for, we do not know what, but something.

Time and again, we see the same story: a Prime Minister who believes the rules do not apply to him or his family. Today I stand here, not just as a member of the Conservative opposition, but as a representative of Canadians who are tired of this behaviour. Canadians work hard, pay their taxes and play by the rules, and they deserve a government that does the same. They deserve a leader who will put their interests above those of well-connected insiders. We cannot allow this culture of corruption to continue.

That is why my colleagues and I will continue to push for the release of all unredacted documents related to this program scandal. We will continue to demand accountability from the government in the House and at the public accounts committee. We will continue to fight for the principles of transparency and good governance, which are the foundation of our democracy. This green slush fund scandal is not just about money. It is about trusting that the government will act in the best interest of its people, not for the benefit of a select few.

The refusal to provide unredacted documents is a blatant disregard for the authority of Parliament, and it sends a dangerous message that the government thinks it is above the law. This is not just about dollars and cents. It is about the principles that underpin our democracy, principles that should never be compromised.

I want to take a moment to address the broader implication of the scandal of public trust in the government, because once trust is broken, it is very difficult, maybe even impossible, to repair. Canadians deserve to have confidence in their government, confidence that it will act in the best interest of Canada, uphold the highest standards of integrity and be accountable for its actions.

I know where I stand, and on this side of the House, we want our colleagues on the government bench to take a stand as well. We cannot sit idly by while our institutions are eroded and the trust of Canadians is betrayed. Canadians are watching us. They are watching to see whether we will stand up for them or whether the Liberals will once again turn a blind eye to corruption. They are watching to see whether we will take action to protect their hard-earned tax dollars.

The time for excuses is over. It is time for accountability and transparency in government. It is time for a change after nine long years of the tired and corrupt Prime Minister. I am confident that in the next election, Canadians will make their voices heard and choose a government that will serve them with integrity.

Canadians will remember that the green slush fund scandal is not just about the misuse of taxpayer dollars but also about the principle that no one, not even the Prime Minister, is above the law. The refusal of the government to provide the documents requested by Parliament is a clear violation of those principles. It is an attempt to subvert Parliament to shield from accountability the people responsible for the corruption. Parliament must not allow it to happen. When a majority of members of the chamber are in agreement that the documents must be released, it is a signal that the trust has been broken and that the government must act.

In the upcoming election, Canadians will have the opportunity to choose a different path. I stand today to say that Conservatives will bring on a government that Canadians can trust, a government that will be a responsible steward of their tax dollars and a government that will always act in the best interests of the people who elect them to serve them.

We will ensure that the people in positions of power are held accountable for their actions. This means real consequences for ethical violations and conflicts of interest, not just a slap on the wrist or, worse, the idea that these things are not even happening and do not matter.

We will ensure that tax dollars are spent wisely and responsibly. This means ending the culture of cronyism that has taken hold in the Liberal government and in too much of the bureaucracy. It means ensuring that public contracts and grants are awarded based on merit, not on whom one knows. It means bringing transparency to the process so Canadians can see exactly how their money is being spent.

We owe it to the people of this great nation to live up to the standards they expect of their government, indeed the standards they live every day in their life and in their community. Unlike our opponents, Conservatives seek to govern for the betterment of Canada, not to flout accountability rules and make Canadians pay more to insiders and well-connected Liberals. We will work for Canadians. Conservatives will deliver a government that will improve this country and finally clean up the mess here in Ottawa.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:30 p.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Madam Speaker, the member is the chair of the public accounts committee, which undertook the work. Through the course of our investigation at committee, we found out that Ms. Verschuren, the former chair of SDTC who took lots of money through conflict of interest, was part of the crony culture that existed before the Liberal Party was in government. It existed both in the Conservative Party and in the Liberal Party.

How much money does the member think was kicked back from SDTC to Ms. Verschuren and then to the Conservative Party? There are records that demonstrate she donated multiple times, for over a decade, to the Conservative Party.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Madam Speaker, I would assume it was not very much, because the NDP-Liberals cannot even say, but all donations are publicly recorded.

I will answer the earlier question the member asked on a point of order. Sadly, since his removal from the public accounts committee, the current member has flipped and is now working with the Liberals to shut down the committee's work. He is supporting a closure motion on the green slush fund and also on ArriveCAN and even on the Auditor General's recent reports. The NDP, it seems, is now back working with the Liberals and their coalition to shut down committee work again.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:30 p.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Madam Speaker, obviously, I realize that my hon. colleague could not answer the question of how much money crony culture has kicked back between the Liberal and Conservative parties. We must consider that Ms. Verschuren, the chair of SDTC, was able to kick back lots and lots of money through conflicts of interest to herself and her company, then kick that money over to the Liberals and to the Conservative Party. She donated to the Conservative Party over a dozen times, even during the time she was chair.

I know the member may deflect, but I think it is an important question for Canadians: How much do you think Ms. Verschuren kicked back in donations to the Conservative Party?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:30 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

I just want to remind the member that he is to address questions and comments through the Chair and not directly to the member.

The hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Madam Speaker, again, not very much; the information is publicly available. If it was such a huge amount, the member would say so, but he has not. That is because it is a small number compared to the amount of money the government has fleeced from taxpayers.

I appreciate the member's political deflection, and I am sorry his party no longer stands with others at public accounts to get to the bottom of this. Instead, it is trying to shut us down as we try to find the answers we think Canadians need to hear.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:30 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Madam Speaker, I want to ask my friend this: In his capacity as chair of public accounts, how many times have the NDP and the Liberals collaborated to ensure that transparency and access to document requests to bring this issue to light have been shut down at committee?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Madam Speaker, I do not have enough time to go through all the times. I will say that we had a meeting yesterday on the Auditor General's latest reports about the $3.5 billion that the government wrongly paid out to recipients of the CEBA program and another $8.5 billion in outstanding loans. The Liberals and NDP shut down that meeting and then moved a motion to try to shut down not only that study but also the studies of ArriveCAN and the green slush fund. This is about freezing oversight on an opposition committee when we are working every day to get to the bottom of these matters for Canadians.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:30 p.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Madam Speaker, as a matter of fact, I have the record here. If the member would like, I can read them out and ask him. How much of a kickback does he think Conservatives got when Ms. Verschuren donated the maximum on March 24, 2022, to the Conservative Party? How much does he think she kicked back in 2022? It was another maximum donation the year before that. There are maximum donations stemming all the way back to 2005. Ms. Verschuren is not just a Liberal insider; I would conclude that she is a Liberal-Conservative insider.

Again, how much money does the member think Ms. Verschuren took from Canadian taxpayers and kicked over to the Conservative Party? I would like to know exactly how much. The member knows.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Madam Speaker, again, I appreciate the effort of my hon. colleague, who is conflating leadership donations to a failed candidate with the party. Again, he has the number, but it is small compared to the half a billion dollars that flew out the door with the Liberals. The NDP is now trying to cover this up to keep the government in power, so the NDP leader can secure his pension sometime next year.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Madam Speaker, we are supposed to be talking about a cover-up of 186 cases of conflict of interest involving $334 million. Canadian taxpayers are getting completely fleeced, and all the NDP can do is ask about something that happened years ago. What does it really matter—

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:35 p.m.

An hon. member

Oh, oh!

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:35 p.m.

NDP

The Assistant Deputy Speaker NDP Carol Hughes

There might be a chance for another question, but I would ask the hon. member for Edmonton Griesbach to please be respectful of the rules of the House. If people keep interrupting, I will not recognize them.

The hon. member for Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa.

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Madam Speaker, why does my colleague think the NDP is so disrespectful of taxpayers' money?

Reference to Standing Committee on Procedure and House AffairsPrivilegeOrders of the Day

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Madam Speaker, I think there has been a change of heart; certainly, we see this in the public accounts committee. We were formerly working with the NDP member, but he was swapped out for whatever reason. We now have a member who has not only belittled our work but actually belittled the work of his own colleagues as well, saying that he is not going to be held accountable for the decisions the previous member made. I do not understand that.

I just assume it is because the leadership of the NDP has had a change of heart. Whereas they were once with us, working to expose corruption, they have now flipped with the NDP leader and are working with the Liberals to keep them in power. Because of that, a cold, dark blanket has gone down on our investigation. We are fighting every day in committee to keep our studies alive, but the Liberals and the NDP are trying to shut down those reviews and legitimate questions that come not only from our committee but also from the Auditor General of Canada. It is a shame.