Debates of June 13th, 2024

Opposition Motion—Government's Economic Analysis on Carbon Pricing

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Madam Speaker, indeed, I do enjoy referencing history. Why not reference history again, but this time, very, very recent history?

Our leader is speaking to various media outlets and made a stop at Radio-Canada. We in the Conservative Party are consistent and logical. Allow me to quote what our leader said in an interview this morning: The tramway, no, busses, yes. Some of the bus proposals would work really well, and I would be open to those kinds of proposals. The City of Quebec and the greater Quebec City area will get their fair share of federal investments.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Madam Speaker, we are debating a motion put forward by the axe-the-facts Conservatives, which is beside the point at this time. However, I am never going to lose an opportunity to ask the Conservatives why they are continuing to prop up and protect the profits of big oil and gas at a time when we need to be lowering our greenhouse gas emissions.

If the member does not want to listen to me, perhaps he will listen to Amara Possian from Canada team lead, 350.org. She says:

It’s criminal that oil and gas companies are raking in record profits while the rest of us struggle. People across Canada are facing a worsening housing crisis, skyrocketing bills, and climate-driven disasters that threaten our health, homes, and communities. It’s time for the government to stand with the majority of the public, who support taxing Big Oil’s excess profits tax. If our leaders make polluters pay their fair share, we can fund the bold climate action this moment demands.

What does the member say to this person who is advocating for change?

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Madam Speaker, I would ask the member where she was three days ago when the six top guns of the petroleum industry appeared at the environment committee, “top guns” meaning CEOs. I do not want to insult anybody. The key people were at committee, thanks to the Conservatives inviting them, and we asked questions of the those people running the oil and gas industry in Canada.

The Conservatives asked questions about reducing emissions, investing in protections for our environment and in new technologies to ensure we reduce emissions, which is, by the way, the first pillar of our policy on the environment and climate change. We want to reduce emissions by investing in new technologies with fiscal incentives. We want to shine the light on green energy. We want to give all the advantages of our natural resources to Canadians. We want to work hand in hand with first nations.

This is where we stand when we talk about the future of our country based on climate change challenges.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Madam Speaker, today's motion is one for the production of documents, arising from the refusal of the government to allow the PBO to release information he had seen that supported the conclusions he had drawn, and that is that the overwhelming majority of Canadians are worse off under the carbon tax when the economic impacts of the carbon tax are taken into effect. This was the latest in the series over time of the carbon tax cover-up.

I think the Liberal member for Whitby thought he had a gotcha moment at committee with the PBO, that he would get the PBO to admit that when we took into account the economic impacts, that somehow the carbon tax was not harmful to Canadians. That was when the PBO, who was having none of it, revealed he had seen the government's data and that this data had supported his conclusions.

When the member for Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley asked the PBO if we could we see this information, the PBO affirmed at committee that he had been gagged. The government was preventing an officer of Parliament from releasing the government's own data.

This is the latest in a pattern that the government has exhibited for nine years now of secrecy, of secrecy by default, of obfuscation and of cover-up, and we have seen this over and over again in a whole series of files. I would like to remind the members of the Liberal caucus who were elected in 2015 that they went door-to-door with their “Real Change Open and Transparent Government” platform. They took it to Canadians in 2015 and said:

It is time to shine more light on government and ensure that it remains focused on the people it is meant to serve. Government and its information should be open by default. Data paid for by Canadians belongs to Canadians. We will restore trust in our democracy, and that begins with trusting Canadians.

What a sick joke after nine years of secrecy, cover-up and an absolute contempt for Canadians and their access to information. In my time here, I have spent quite a bit of time on the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics and have studied access to information a couple of times. It is appalling the level of secrecy the government continues to insist on.

We saw this with the Winnipeg labs, when the Liberals spent years suppressing information. They actually named the former Speaker of the House in a lawsuit. They went that far as to sue the former Speaker to stop the release of documents, in contempt of Parliament. Kicking and screaming in that episode, they eventually tabled a document and then sought the extraordinary credit for their supposed commitment to access to information.

We have seen this in the ATIP system, which I have also studied at both the defence committee and access to information, privacy and ethics committee. The government, when it was elected, brought in an access to information bill that it claimed was in furtherance of that election promise, which I read earlier. The Information Commissioner of the day said that it was a step backward, that the Liberals actually proactively changed the law to make access to information worse in our country.

Here we are on the morning of an opposition day, where the Conservatives have put forward a production order to ensure that Canadians can get the truth about the government's own information it possesses, as it misleadingly tells Canadians that the carbon tax is somehow good for them, and the Liberals dumped the documents literally moments before the opposition leader moved our opposition motion and spoke to it. Again, in debate, the government wants extraordinary credit, “Why are we debating this motion? We gave them this information.”

Of course, the Liberals gave the information, but only because the motion was on notice and was going to be debated, possibly even supported, by the House, and, if it were supported by the House, it would have held them in contempt if they were to not comply with a production order. That is the MO of the government. It has the idea that it can suppress and hold on to information and conceal the cost of the carbon tax from Canadians.

The document dump we had right before the motion began to be debated in the House revealed that, yes, the carbon tax is a significant drain on GDP. The carbon tax makes Canadians poorer. We are in a moment when Canada has the lowest GDP growth per capita in the G7. It is not growth at all. It is negative growth. It is shrinking. The per capita GDP in Canada is shrinking. Canadians are getting poorer. This is not an opinion of mine. This is a fact. This is per capita GDP. The wealth of the country, divided by its people, is shrinking. That is Canada in 2024, and we need to get off that track.

The carbon tax is not helping. It is a drain on GDP. This is a crisis of our economy, wherein the OECD predicts, in the decades to come, that Canada will be at the bottom of its peer countries. The carbon tax contributes to this. The carbon tax harms the economy and makes Canadians poorer. We know it. The PBO has said this. The data that the government has released supports the PBO's conclusions. The PBO was clear that this data would support his conclusions when he testified before the finance committee a couple of weeks ago.

There are enormous problems facing this country, some of which have been raised by members of all sides in this debate so far today. We have a housing crisis. We have a crisis in the Canadian Armed Forces in recruitment and retention, and in non-availability of equipment and munitions. All of these things are going to require a strong economy. We need a growing economy where people are getting wealthier, not poorer, where people will be able to afford to buy a decent home in a safe neighbourhood, and where we will have the financial and economic capacity to fund a health care system that people can depend upon.

We need a strong economy to be able to fund the desperately needed upgrades and enhancements to our national defence and our armed forces. All of these things are threatened by the government's lack of care for the state of our economy. Liberals are insisting that the carbon tax system that they have created is somehow good for Canadians, even though it is suppressing GDP and making Canadians poorer. They are determined to stick to this, despite the officer of Parliament who told us otherwise.

For a government that claimed and campaigned to be the most open and transparent in Canadian history, in what scenario would an officer of Parliament have to resort to an ATIP to get information from the government, that they would have to formally file an ATIP and, just like other journalists, politicians, researchers and academics, be denied their ATIP?

This morning, the government wants extraordinary credit for the documents it dumped. I took a quick look at the CBC story that came out about this. The CBC's ATIP has not even been complied with. The full disclosure has not been made, yet the government is claiming that it is some sort of hero of openness because, faced with a production order being debated and voted on in this chamber, it came out minutes ahead of it with a document dump. The cover-up continues. The culture of cover-up continues, and it needs to stop.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Madam Speaker, that member just quoted the CBC. He better be careful, or he might get kicked out of his caucus. Conservatives can say whatever they want about being pro-life, but that member had better be very careful, or he might get himself kicked out of caucus for quoting the CBC.

I find it fascinating how he is willing to accept, in the data that was released this morning, the GDP information, but he will not accept the fact that it categorically proves that eight out of 10 Canadians are better off and that the carbon tax has reduced emissions by 80 million tonnes of GHG emissions to date. If he accepts the GDP information, he has to accept the other information. More importantly, when he does talk about GDP, the one thing the document does not have any data on is the cost of doing nothing.

The cost of doing nothing is greater than that $30 billion in GDP that the member references. The cost of doing nothing is about $35 billion in 2030. Why will that member not talk about the cost of doing nothing? Is it not just because the Conservatives do not want to do anything?

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Madam Speaker, the member is continuing to mislead people about what the report says and what the carbon tax does to Canadians. This whole discussion is about the economic impact of the carbon tax, and eight out of 10 Canadians are not better off when we measure the economic impact. They are poorer. The GDP reduction proves that this is harmful to the economy, and the PBO has been clear all along that the economic cost of the carbon tax does not make Canadians wealthier.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Madam Speaker, the Conservatives just will not stop talking about the carbon tax. In their own way, they are tearing it apart. However, a lot of economists say that this measure will help reduce GHG emissions.

Can the Conservatives be even a tiny bit positive or constructive and tell us how, without a carbon tax, they would reduce greenhouse gases? All I am asking for is a teeny tiny practical example of what they would do to reduce greenhouse gases.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Madam Speaker, my colleague, our shadow minister of environment, talked about that in his speech, but I want to say to my colleague from the Bloc that his colleagues seemed to think that this motion is unworthy of debate or concern in the House. Do they think that it is okay for the Government of Canada to ignore requests for information with impunity, to gag the Parliamentary Budget Officer and to promise to Canadians openness and transparency but deliver secrecy, obfuscation and cover-ups?

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Madam Speaker, I cannot help but think about how incredibly short-sighted it is for us to be talking about the economic impacts on Canadians today without looking at the costs of us doing nothing, as was brought up by my colleague. We know that the climate crisis has incredible economic costs. We know that the economic cost is likely to reduce national GDP by $25 billion by 2025. That is equivalent to $630 per person in lost income, with people earning low incomes being affected the most. We know this. Also, fighting increasingly destructive wildfires costs $1 billion a year, and these costs will only continue to rise.

Does the member agree that the costs of the climate crisis need to be prioritized and that we cannot ignore that the climate crisis is happening as we speak?

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Madam Speaker, I do not accept the premise of the member. It seems to be implied that the carbon tax is somehow making a significant impact on climate change. We heard from the member for Louis-Saint-Laurent earlier that Canada ranks very poorly in its performance on emissions, so I do not accept the premise that the carbon tax is a solution to the problems that she has outlined.

I would also say to her and her colleagues that there was a time when NDP members were actually quite serious about transparency in government and about the functioning of Parliament. They seem to have abandoned that while they support the Liberals, who will suppress information from an officer of Parliament and refuse to disclose information that is the property of Canadians.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Madam Speaker, everything we heard from the member for Calgary Rocky Ridge was quite literally false. Let us just recap what has happened to get us to where we are today.

Conservatives have been asking for data, not a report. It is not as though they were asking for some secret report that the government had that the PBO wanted to see. What they are asking for is data, and they not asking for anything that is really compiled in a way that is presentable. They were asking for Excel spreadsheets, and not even that.

Notwithstanding the fact that the member for Calgary Rocky Ridge, amongst others, will go on about how Liberals are being secretive and not supplying information, this is exactly what we have done. I am sorry if it was not in a timely fashion to suit their needs.

I will be sharing my time with the member for Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill.

Notwithstanding the fact it does not suit their needs at this particular time, they received the data. I heard the member for Calgary Rocky Ridge get up to talk about the data and how the data says it is going to affect our GDP. Just so Canadians who are watching can fully understand the impact of this, we are talking about a GDP that was previously projected at $2.68 trillion now being projected at $2.66 trillion. That is what we are talking about.

That is what the member for Calgary Rocky Ridge is basing his entire premise on, on the data. If he is willing to accept the data as it relates to GDP, notwithstanding the fact that he has not even begun to consider the cost of climate change, as pointed out to him by me and an NDP colleague, then he must also accept the data, which was produced for Conservatives today, that clearly says that eight out of 10 Canadians are better off as a result of the rebate they receive and that the carbon tax has contributed to 80 million tonnes of GHG emission reductions to date, which is projected to continue and exceed 25 million tonnes per year.

That is the truth. Conservatives asked for the data. Conservatives got the data. Conservatives, such as the member for Calgary Rocky Ridge, are now using the data, and specifying it as fact, and quoting CBC articles as fact. Then they have to, by any reasonable logic, also be able to accept the data as it relates to what the impact is on Canadians, how much money they get back, and what the overall impact is of the carbon tax.

It is a bad day for Conservatives. The reality is that they have now found themselves in a position where they just do not know what to do. They got proof this morning that people are better off. They got proof this morning that the carbon tax is actually reducing GHG emissions. They are fumbling around, trying to talk about people that are being prevented from getting the information they were requesting.

The Conservatives are just trying to divert and figure out what their next strategy is. Their strategy has always been the same. The strategy has been built on tapping into the fears and anxieties of Canadians and trying to put the blame on the federal government. Their strategy has been very clear on the carbon tax. It is a communications success, from my perspective.

They have done a really good job at communicating a false narrative to Canadians. That false narrative being that the carbon tax does not work and it affects everybody in a negative way. They have done a good job. I will give them that.

We have done a bad job on communicating how good the policy is. The reality is that we could have done a better job. However, I prefer to be on the side of good policy and bad communication rather than literally telling people falsehoods to try to capitalize off them for political gain, which is exactly what Conservatives are doing. They are doing it again.

The Leader of the Opposition barely spoke about the motion this morning. He decided to talk about capital gains. Here is another perfect example of how Conservatives are attempting to mislead Canadians. For two months, we told Canadians, Conservatives and the House that we would be introducing legislation to bring in a capital gains increase for people who are making over $250,000. Conservatives were silent on it. They were—

[Some hon. members]

Where's the bill?

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I will get to the bill in a second.

Madam Speaker, the Conservatives were silent on it. They did not say a word about it. The Liberals tried to get them to comment on it, and they would not do it. All of a sudden, at 1:30 p.m. two days ago, the Leader of the Opposition came out to speak. He had more Conservatives than normal sitting behind him. He gave this speech about how this was going to be a tax-killing initiative that would wipe everybody out and spoke all about how the Conservatives were against it.

At the same time, the Conservatives blasted all over social media. This is the reality of the situation. After two months of silence, they pushed the rage-farm button that activated all their trolls, who started blasting emails to everybody about it. When I challenged the Conservative members today on that and asked why they waited two months, the response I got was that the bill had not been introduced. Do they actually think that a single Canadian believes that the Conservatives would silence themselves until a bill was introduced?

The Conservatives do nothing but rail on about misinformation. If they saw an ounce of political opportunity, they would pounce on it like a drop of blood in the ocean with sharks swimming around it. That is the reality of the situation. The Conservatives are all about feeding a false narrative to Canadians so that they can tap into fears and anxiety. They are now attempting to do, with the capital gains tax, exactly what they did with the carbon tax.

For those who are just tuning in, when do they think this discussion about the carbon tax started to pop up in our national discussion? Most people probably think it was sometime last fall or maybe at the end of the summer. That is funny because we have had a price on pollution, a carbon tax, since 2018. Does anybody find it interesting that no Conservative said much about it before? Does anybody find it interesting that every single Conservative who sits on that side of the House ran on pricing pollution? They all ran on the concept of it in 2021.

A number of Conservative members will get up to say they did not run on that and that was their former leader. That is for them to sort out with their leaders, in terms of which parts of the policy they are not willing to stand on. I guess that explains a lot about why certain Conservatives are getting up and talking about being pro-choice and how they want to reintroduce a debate about abortion. That is what we are seeing come from Conservatives now. If they actually believe—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

We have a point of order from the hon. member for Timmins—James Bay.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Madam Speaker, I think it is very unfair for the member to make a habit of this, when we know that there are certain members missing from the backbench who have been put in the doghouse permanently for speaking of abortion.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Madam Speaker, I take the bait from the member for Timmins—James Bay a lot easier than he takes it from me. However, I would agree. It is very interesting that somebody has gone into hiding or has been put in protective custody, and that is the member for Peace River—Westlock, who is suddenly missing in action ever since he made his comments about all Conservatives being pro-life.

In any event, with the tax on capital gains, we find ourselves back at the same place as we did before with the carbon tax. Conservatives are deliberately spreading misinformation for the purpose of creating anxiety and fear. Conservatives have no interest in helping anybody other than the one per cent, other than their rich buddies. They do not care about the impacts.

The Conservatives do not realize or they do not want to accept the fact that the data they begged and pleaded for, the data that was released to them today, shows that eight out of 10 Canadians are better off, that the carbon price is actually working and that it has contributed to reducing GHG emissions. Although there is a portion that talks about the gross domestic product impact, they are not even starting to consider the fact that doing nothing is going to cost a lot more, as the minister indicated today.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Madam Speaker, I really liked the theatrics from the member opposite. I am really confused, though. He made several statements about misinformation. He talked about how the documents proved that greenhouse gas emissions were actually reduced. The member can agree with me on that one. However, I am quite confused here, because we asked an Order Paper question back in November: “[D]oes the government measure the annual amount of emissions directly reduced from the federal carbon price...?” I do not even know how the member would know this. The response was that the “government does not measure the annual amount of emissions that are directly reduced by the federal carbon pricing.” I will repeat that in case the member did not get it. It says the “government does not measure the annual amount of emissions that are directly reduced by the federal carbon pricing”, more affectionately known as the carbon tax.

Can the member respond to that?

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Madam Speaker, this is exactly what I was talking about when I said that the Conservatives will mislead and create false narratives. I said very clearly in the beginning that what they were asking for was not a report. This was not a report that was produced with a glossy cover and everything. This is the data. These are literally the Excel spreadsheets that have the data on them. Was that information compiled from those data sheets up until this point? Apparently, according to the member, it was not. However, if he were to actually take the data that is in there and look at it, he should come to that conclusion.

If the member is willing to accept the fact that GDP is affected by this, then he also needs to accept the fact that the data shows that eight out of 10 Canadians are better off and that greenhouse gas emissions have reduced by 80 million tonnes to date.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Madam Speaker, it seems that the Conservatives moved this motion because the Liberals wanted to censor the report. Now the report has been released.

The Liberals keep saying that they have stopped funding oil, although they continue to fund oil companies in many ways, from building pipelines to subsidizing new carbon capture processes.

Could my colleague comment on the fact that the Liberals keep saying they will stop subsidizing oil but, in fact, they are still funding oil companies?

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Madam Speaker, the member said that a report was tabled. Once again, this is not a report. This is data. It is literally data sheets, Excel spreadsheets.

The member asked a question about funding big oil. We do not have fossil fuel subsidies anymore. We do have initiatives to help with things like carbon capture. Do I think that carbon capture is the long-term solution? Absolutely not. Do I support the idea of carbon capture in the interim? I know how much fossil fuel we need and depend on right now; if there is an interim solution to get us to another place, then I support carbon capture.

However, I reject the premise of the question. It suggests that we are continuing to subsidize the fossil fuel industry, but we are not. We phased it out earlier than in the original timeline we had.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Madam Speaker, since the axe-the-facts Conservatives have brought forward another motion that is moot at this point, I am going to ask the member another question that is very important to constituents in my riding, particularly around the greener homes program. We know the greener homes program was—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

I have to interrupt the hon. member. I have a point of order from the hon. member for the Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Madam Speaker, we are debating a motion. Just on a point of relevance, the member admitted that she is not going to ask a question related to the motion.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

That has been pretty much the norm since I have been sitting in this Chair.

The hon. member for Nanaimo—Ladysmith.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Madam Speaker, it is really challenging to speak to a motion that is moot at this point. Related to the motion, and more important to my constituents, is the greener homes program. It was abruptly cancelled, leaving out many people who were relying on this program to build more resilient homes, to adapt to the climate emergency and to save money. We have seen small businesses in my riding of Nanaimo—Ladysmith having to lay off staff members as a result of the abrupt end to this program.

Could the member share with constituents in my riding why there was an abrupt closure of this program, although inefficient? What are the Liberals going to do to help people across Canada to build more efficient homes?