Mr. Speaker, duly chastised. To the member for Crowfoot I was going to explain why I have sadness. It is actually on three points. It is with great sadness for the victims, for the families of the victims who have experienced pain in the past. It is with great sadness that the Reform Party has given a media platform to Mr. Olson, which is something I am sure he is very happy to have.
I speak with great sadness because the opposition parties are exploiting the pain and suffering, knowing full well that legislation could not have stopped this hearing from happening this week, that no one can go back in time and change the rules under which somebody was convicted. I have great sympathy for the families of the murder victims. No one in our society should suffer such violent and tragic loss.
It is interesting that today we are debating a piece of legislation that only affects those who are victims of murder and yet when the Reform Party is called on to enact other legislation it votes against it, legislation which would be hate crimes prosecuted with a heavier length of sentence, measures like gun control, something that was asked for by victims.
Section 745, unfortunately one of the members opposite misunderstood, also affects those who are convicted of second degree murder and had a lengthier sentence imposed on them.
Section 745 will not address the loss that the victims are feeling. We have taken appropriate measures to address the issue. In all our considerations we have been made aware that victims must be included in the process, that we cannot exacerbate the pain and indeed our awareness of victims' concerns has prompted action on many concerns. As I have already mentioned, Bill C-45 affects not just the victims of that crime but all the people who are victims around that crime.
This government has done a great deal to address the concerns of victims of crime and to facilitate their participation in the criminal justice system. Government has responded and will continue to respond to a trend to be more responsive to victims. It did not start with the Reform Party's coming to this House. It has come up many times before. Almost a year ago the government and all its members responded with overwhelming support to a motion to ask the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs to consider the issues of national legislation to provide for victims' rights.
In lending support to a national bill, which I assume suggests some federal legislation, we must be careful not to prescribe rights which the federal government has no jurisdiction over and no authority to enforce. Our actions speak louder than words. Setting out principles and calling them rights which could not be effectively enforced would be pointless and likely more frustrating than beneficial for victims. Rather, we should direct our energy at addressing specific issues we have the power to address.
Colleagues and viewers should know that recommendations for a victims bill of rights are not novel. This debate has been ongoing since the mid-1980s. Ever since the American Congress passed a federal victims bill of rights, many Canadians have advocated that we follow suit. It is difficult to disagree with a victims bill of rights, but we should ensure the victims of crime will benefit from such a bill before we enact it.
We have had this discussion at the federal level and at the provincial level. In a report to the ministers of justice of the federal-provincial task force on justice for victims of crime in 1983, the federal government, the provinces and the territories engaged in ongoing consultation. They have continued consult with regard to improvements to the criminal justice system that would benefit victims of crime within their respective areas of responsibility. These consultations have squarely addressed the enactment of a victims bill of rights. However, the time has come to revisit the issue.
Much has happened in the last 10 years to improve the victim's role in the criminal justice system. In 1985, as many will know, Canada co-sponsored the United Nations statement on basic principles of justice for victims of crime. Canadian listeners can be
proud that Canada's justice system already reflected those principles in 1985 and will continue to do so into the 21st century.
In any event, the UN declaration prompted the federal and provincial governments to re-examine the issue of a victims bill of rights. While all the provinces and the federal government were sincerely committed to making changes to the justice system, it was recognized that certain concerns could only be addressed by provincial legislation and that other concerns could be addressed by federal legislation. The majority of the concerns cannot be addressed in legislation at all but by changing attitudes about the role of the victim in the process and about the basic human values of dignity and respect.
When we consider the role of victims in the justice system we also have to think about a meaningful mechanism to enforce their rights. Rights without remedies cannot truly be said to be rights. For instance, if a bill of rights states that victims have the right to receive timely information about the status of an investigation or about the prosecution of an offender, what is the remedy if they feel they have not received timely information? Who is responsible? Likely the police and/or the crown, but is it reasonable to expect that a single piece of legislation can assign obligations to different participants in the justice system that play distinct roles and are employed by separate ministries? Moreover, what is the remedy? Should the prosecution be called off because the victim did not get their information?
What we can do is prescribe in our justice system a set of principles to guide the players. We can continue to encourage them to adhere to those principles of our criminal justice system that deserve the utmost consideration at all stages of the process.
The federal government is responsible for the enacting of criminal law while the provinces are generally responsible for the enforcement of the law, the prosecution of the offences and the administration of justice in the province. We opted among ourselves for a statement of principles to recognize the need for joint action and co-operation.
In 1988 the federal and provincial governments at a meeting of justice ministers endorsed the Canadian statement of basic principles of justice for victims of crime. The notion of a statement rather than a bill of rights addressed both the jurisdictional and practical concerns. All jurisdictions would ensure that whatever initiatives they pursued would reflect these principles, whether in policy or in legislation.
Since 1988, all provinces and both territories have enacted victim legislation which does refer to these principles. I will not go through all the principles as I am sharing my time with the member for Simcoe North. It is important today for us to reflect on the changes to section 745 and how victims will be brought into that process.
It is important to know that Bill C-45 has changed the judicial review process. It established a judicial review so that it will eliminate frivolous cases. It also went further. If you do go before a judge and jury there must be a unanimous jury decision and if more than one individual has been killed there will be no process for you.
The provincial attorneys general have been communicated with and have been instructed to ensure that upon application, a notice will go out to all the victims and they will be called on to attend so that they are not surprised, as some members opposite have suggested. These are exceptional cases and I think we need to be aware of the issues.
It was raised earlier that the faint hope clause was a sure thing and that everybody gets out in 15 years. I thought it might be helpful to have some information from one of the practitioners in our criminal law system, someone who has been on both sides, the crown and defence, my constituent, Mr. Geoffrey Manishen, with the firm of Ross, McBride and Hamilton.
When he came to committee he said: "Practically speaking, you cannot start the process until the criminal has done 15 years. In most jurisdictions by the time he goes through his application there is a judge appointed, they have the preliminary inquiry, they have the day scheduled for the hearing and they have a hearing with the parole eligibility report prepared along the way. It is not 15 years but now that whole process is 16 years. Even if the parole eligibility was reduced right to 16 years, and it is not, we would go through at least 2 to 3 years of graduated release from unescorted temporary absences to day parole before ultimately getting full parole".
It is also important that when the people came before our committee to testify on Bill C-45 they described another factor which the party opposite has refused to discuss. It is selective in its choice of victims. The victims who want this section repealed, it is willing to talk about; the victims who want gun control, for some reason it was not able to address their concerns. Maybe there needs to be some reminder about the other victims who are out there.
Mr. Partington, who has worked in correctional services for a number of years and has done section 745 applications, said: "When you sit in a courtroom trial, on one side you have the victim's family, the deceased's family, and on the other side you have the offender's family who has spent 15 or 16 years as victims of the same offence, I suppose the forgotten victims. Their perspective is somewhat different. They still have a son or a daughter to visit with, to celebrate birthdays and so on. Yes, they still have him alive but they are as victimized in some ways as the deceased. I think it is important to keep the balance".
To members opposite, we have to make some changes that go forward. We now have victim impact statements in our legislation for sentencing and those are considered. Members need to realize that if that is what victims want, to stop at that process and not come back to a hearing 15 or 20 years later, and in some cases like the Olson case that would not occur, those statements will serve in the consideration and that if the victims do not want to testify, they do not have to come forward. Their statements will stand.
