Monte Solberg

[Speech From The Throne, February 29th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca. I want to respond to the throne speech and to some of the comments that the Prime Minister made yesterday when he addressed the House.

He talked about the government's having done its job already and that now it was time for business to do its job to fulfil its obligations.

Those are very bizarre comments from the Prime Minister because I do not think the Prime Minister and the government have fulfilled their obligations at all. I see the obligations of the government with respect to business, job creation and those sorts of things as creating an environment in which jobs can grow, businesses can be prosperous and people can look forward to the future with some hope. The government has failed miserably in its attempt to create an environment like that.

This fall a poll suggested Canadians could not list a single thing of significance that the government had done over the two years it had been in power. We have a pall over the country today, a shroud, a pessimism because the government has failed to show any leadership on the issues that Canadians are very concerned about.

I will talk specifically about some of the things the government could address but has failed to. The Prime Minister said that when talking about jobs the government has done what it could do and it is up to business. I reject that. I point to the debt, probably the single most important underlying problem we have which affects not only jobs but the sustainability of social programs, the prosperity of the country as a whole.

Today we have a debt of $570 billion. The Prime Minister has been in government for a long time and perhaps has started to take billions for granted.

For the benefit of the government, when I go to high school classes and talk about the size of the debt, I remind them of how much money $1 billion is. If I had a stack of hundred dollar bills about two metres high that is $1 million. If I stacked our debt of $570 billion it would be over 1,100 kilometres high. That is a tremendous amount of money and the government over the course of its mandate is adding $110 billion.

Business cannot balance the budget for the Prime Minister, only the Prime Minister and the government can do that. How can he say he has done all he can do? That is absolutely false. They have not balanced the budget and they have not begun the process of paying down the debt which is also critical to the long term fiscal and economic health of the country.

If we do not balance the budget we cannot begin to lower taxes. There is tremendous weariness in the country today with respect to the heavy burden of taxes that people bear. It is unbelievable. Under the previous government we had something in the order of 32 tax increases. In both budgets that have come down under the Liberal government to date we have had more tax increases. Over the last several weeks starting with the finance committee, a report in January, and ending up with the Deputy Prime Minister, we have had more talk of taxes.

The finance committee was talking about tax increases for fuel, lotteries and tobacco. The Deputy Prime Minister was talking about a tax for the CBC. Despite the fine words of the Deputy Prime Minister a few minutes ago about Canadian culture and how the government creates Canadian culture, 61 per cent of Canadians want to see the CBC privatized. The Deputy Prime Minister, the finance minister and the Prime Minister have ignored what Canadians are saying on those issues, saying they want a tax to support the CBC. That is outrageous. That is ridiculous.

The government has not done all it can do to deal with the issues Canadians are concerned about. It certainly has not created an environment that leads to job growth. When it does that I can guarantee businesses will more than pick up the slack. They need to have the chance and the government is the only one that can give it to them.

There are many other areas in which the government has not fulfilled its moral obligations or even the promises it made during the election campaign. I guarantee if the government fulfils its obligation, its promise, to get rid of the GST, that would be something Canadians would cheer. They would respond very well to that. Business would respond well to that. It is a regulatory burden. In the election campaign government members made a very irresponsible promise, saying they would abolish the GST.

They said it again last week. However, the only responsible way to abolish the GST is to balance the budget and then begin to lower the rate of the GST. We cannot just get rid of it because we would

then be out $17 billion. We already have a huge debt and a deficit we have to deal with. They made a very irresponsible promise.

Liberal backbenchers are very concerned. They put their integrity on the line when they went door to door during the election campaign, promising to get rid of the GST. Now they are very concerned their government cannot fulfill that promise. They should be holding the government to account on that issue.

Despite the Prime Minister's words, the government has not done all it could have done to create an environment in which business could create jobs, in which there could be prosperity, in which people could look to the future with some hope. It has not done what it needs to do.

Tax reform is another area in which the government could have done something but has not so far. Our party has talked about the prospect of a flat tax. Even some of the Liberal members across the way have talked about a flat tax. In the United States today it is one of the major issues.

People are very interested in making their tax system understandable, which must be one of the most important aspects of a tax system. In a democracy people have the right to understand how their tax system works. It would also be fairer. There would be only one rate. The more money one made, the more one would pay, but it would be one rate. Therefore it would cost people on the basis of their ability to pay.

We would not need so much help to fill out tax forms. Therefore it would be much less of a drain on Canadian taxpayers. There are may other aspects of a flat tax that make it good, something to help create jobs, not the least of which is the removal of disincentives to be more productive. However, the government has rejected this. The finance department has said no way, it does not want this. Again, the Prime Minister is dead wrong. The government has not done all it can to create an environment for jobs and for growth in the economy.

Last spring in the House we debated internal trade barriers. The government brought down legislation, if I remember correctly, Bill C-88. The Reform Party argued at that time that the changes the government was advocating were simply not adequate. The industry minister assured us the changes were an important first step. We said we still do not have the mechanisms in place to ensure we do not have those disputes.

Now we see in the throne speech the minister is eating his words, saying we need a better trade deal. I remind Canadians and members across the way that according to studies, internal trade barriers cost anywhere between $5 billion and $44 billion a year to Canadians. Again, the Prime Minister and the government have not done the things they need to in order to create an environment for business.

Group after group told the finance committee over the course of the prebudget hearings in the fall that they do not want the

government involved in business anymore. The nine words Canadian entrepreneurs fear the most are: "I'm here from the government, I'm here to help". People are tired of seeing the government interfere in business.

Many business groups told us not to interfere in, subsidize or pour billions into businesses. What is in the throne speech? The government is stating it will get involved in envirotechnology and biotechnology industries. It wants to be involved in the aerospace industry and the high tech industry. Does that mean we will be subsidizing Bell Canada? What does that mean? It is ridiculous. Let us get away from that, from pouring money into business. Let business look after business and then we will create jobs.

The government has also failed to give people some hope that in the future the Canada pension plan, old age security and health care will be available for everybody. Because of that and because it is talking about more payroll taxes, which are job killers, there is a shroud of pessimism across the country which hurts the ability of the economy to create jobs.

Therefore I argue the Prime Minister is wrong. The government has not done all it could to create an environment for growth and jobs. It should rethink the approach it has taken in the throne speech and get at the fundamentals which include the debt and deficit problem. If we can wipe that out we can have lower taxes. If we have lower taxes we will have jobs for Canadians, which is what the Prime Minister should be working on.

[The Economy, February 28th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, maybe someone in the finance minister's position does not understand why regular Canadians are so fearful about their economic futures.

Canadians want less taxes, not different taxes. I remind the finance minister of his statement in 1990 when he said: "I would abolish the GST".

Assuming the finance minister is a man of his word-I make that assumption-I ask him again why is he breaking his promise and not abolishing the GST?

[The Economy, February 28th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, after the Deputy Prime Minister's little speech, I thought she would be announcing that Bobby Gimby had been appointed to cabinet. Obviously that has not happened yet.

Since 1989 Canadians have seen their disposable incomes fall by 8.6 per cent. Leading up to the election campaign the current government made many promises about scrapping the GST, suggesting it was going to reverse that trend. That was what it suggested.

However, yesterday in the throne speech it signalled that it has absolutely no intention of scrapping the GST. I would like to know from the finance minister why it is reneging on its promise.

[Finance, December 14th, 1995]

The member for Calgary Centre wants one of those trees. We all do. Those days are long gone. We have found that we were not actually even paying for those programs at that point. We were only using borrowed money to pay for them. Now the chickens have come home to roost and the country has a massive debt.

I have talked about some of the values. People want equal treatment. They want the merit principle in all of their legislation and in all of their laws. They believe in prudence. They are compassionate and want those programs directed toward the people who need them the most.

I wish to talk about those values in the context of the current situation. The situation is certainly not ideal. It would be wonderful if we could go back and wipe the slate clean and build new institutions based on some of these principles we have talked about, but we cannot do that.

We are in a situation today where we are really in a huge hole. The debate is $570 billion. Something like 44 per cent of the total federal and provincial debt is foreign owned. In a very real way a great deal of our sovereignty as a nation has been lost as a result of that.

The deficit will be somewhere around $32 billion this year. In other words, we are going to go into the hole another $32 billion. By the end of its mandate the government will have gone into the hole by another $100 billion.

If interest rates are 6 per cent or 7 per cent, it means it is going to be $6 billion or $7 billion, but that is only at the end of it. Over that period interest has also been accumulating and it would probably be much higher than that, say $11 billion or $12 billion.

Because we have waited so long, it means we are going to have to cut a lot deeper into our social programs. It means we cannot hold out any hope for tax relief for Canadians for a long time. People are crying for some relief from taxes.

If I may touch on our current situation, by the end of the mandate Canadians will be paying $51 billion a year in interest on the debt, about 37 cents of every tax dollar. That is a tremendous amount of money to devote just to paying interest.

Furthermore, we are mired in an unemployment rut. Unemployment now is about 9.4 per cent. A lot of people would argue that the biggest single reason for that high unemployment rate is the tremendous drag on the economy because of that massive debt and deficit.

Hon. members across the way say we should have a job creation program. The auditor general has slagged the government for these job creation programs because they do not work. All they do is add to the debt and that makes the situation worse.

All of these problems have to be looked at. We have to figure out how we can address them, using some of the values I have talked about just a minute ago.

I wish to talk a little more about our current situation. The Canada pension plan is in serious trouble, about $500 billion in debt. Taxes are rocketing up. In fact, they have gone up more in this country than in any other G-7 nation over the last several years. The situation is very serious.

I will conclude by pointing out that as members go home for Christmas and sit down with their families, with their children and grandchildren, they should remember exactly why we are in this place. We are here not to serve only our generation, but also to right all the wrongs that we are loading on to the shoulders of the next generation.

May I suggest that down the road what people really want is not a budget. What they want is some confidence that they will be able to retire some day, that they will be able to find a job, that they will be able to have enough money in their pockets after taxes so that they can put their kids through university. It is those human things that ordinary people desire every day. When you talk to people around the country this is what they tell you they want. This is my recommendation to the finance minister.

As we close, may I wish all the members in this place a very merry Christmas and all the best in the new year.

[Finance, December 14th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to address some of the recommendations that were made in the report from the finance committee as a result of the prebudget hearings.

I want to come at this from the point of view of regular, average, every day people who may not know a lot about economics but know a lot about what kind of country they want to live in.

It is my view that the real reason for governments, constitutions, laws and all the institutions is for the people. What that says to me is that these institutions and the economy and all of those types of things need to be in alignment with the values of the people. Therefore, when we go about designing these institutions, budgets or laws, we need to know what the values of the people are.

It is a failing of these committees when we travel around that we do not always get input from regular people who express where they are coming from on these things.

It is not just the finance committee but all committees. It is a peculiar problem governments have: the ability to really hear what people are saying. It is something we have to work harder on. Certainly my party will try to help in doing that.

All members go out once in a while to sit in the coffee shops and talk to people about what life is like in the real world. There are some fundamental values that people believe in. I know in my riding they believe in certain values. I would hazard to say that it is probably true for most MPs.

One of the values people really believe in is equal treatment. For instance they believe that under the taxation system people should be treated equally and people should be equal before the law. They oppose anything that seems to grant special privilege to anybody.

That certainly applies to politicians when it comes to their pensions. The hon. member who just spoke was one of the MPs who gave up his pension. I appreciate that. I think that MPs have to lead by example because people do not want to see MPs or people in government getting treatment that is not available to everybody. They believe in equal treatment and they want to see that as one of the principles that finds its way into all institutions.

People believe in the merit principle. They feel that if you work hard and produce more, then you should be rewarded. Value should be recognized in all the things we do. People feel very strongly about this. People are tired of getting beaten up for working harder and producing more.

When we have the heavy a tax load we have in this country, sometimes people feel that way. This is why people are escaping into the underground economy or leaving the country with their talents and going to other countries where the taxes they pay are not so high. In some cases companies go to tax havens around the world to avoid taxes. The merit principle is a value that needs to find its way into all the legislation that comes out of the finance department.

I also think people believe in prudence. People who are successful in their own lives have to be prudent. They have to spend less than they take in. That is something that the government should be working toward doing. I know the hon. member across the way has said that it is working toward doing that but I would argue it has to go much faster still.

People feel very exposed as a result of how slowly the government is going toward its zero deficit target. It has not even announced when it will get there. It will be sometime in the next millennium I guess. Of course between then and now there will be an election. There could be another referendum. There could be a peso crisis. There could be a recession. There could be kinds of things that affect those targets.

If the deficit is not dealt with right away people are left exposed. Canadians' values are opposed to that. They want to have a government that lives within its means, that is prudent and ensures that any decisions made are dealt with by the current generation, that a large debt is not passed on to the next generation. That is something the average person is very much opposed to.

There is probably a lot more to discuss on values. People in this country are compassionate and they are compassionate in a particular way. They really believe that people who cannot look after themselves need to be looked after. That does not mean that a social program for everybody. It means that a social program for those people who cannot look after themselves. That is a small minority, not everybody. We do not need to have universal social programs.

I do not think anybody today would deny that universal social programs have not only helped create some of the social problems in this country where through some of the programs people are actually paid to remain idle. I would also argue that they have really and truly added to the debt problem.

There was a time when people thought that money grew on trees. Programs were expanded-

[Transfer Payments, December 14th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, we have equalization payments that serve to equalize the services that are provided across the country.

The initial distribution of the Canada health and social transfer discriminates against Alberta, B.C. and Ontario. Furthermore, Quebec gets more than Newfoundland on a per capita basis.

Is it the minister's intention to continue his discrimination against some provinces? Will he favour a distribution of the CHST that results in per capita transfers to all the provinces and all Canadians on an equal basis?

[Transfer Payments, December 14th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, last winter the finance minister committed to bring together the provincial finance ministers to set the new terms for the Canada health and social transfer. They came together this week and could only agree on a dinner menu and that was about it.

Why in the world did the minister wait until three months before the decision was to be made to bring the ministers together? What is his game plan now if the provinces cannot agree? It certainly looks like that is the case.

[The Economy, December 12th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, the fact is job creation has stalled in the country. The fact is the government is being forced to cut into social programs because the interest on the debt is undermining those programs. The fact is that the provinces are leading the way.

Will the Minister of Finance take a leadership role for a change, go to the conference today and tell the provinces that he is going to undertake to do what they have done and begin the process of balancing the budget. Will he ultimately hold out some hope to Canadians that there will be some tax relief, not in the 21st century but in this century?

[The Economy, December 12th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, a minute ago the finance minister made the absurd statement that somehow the government has cut more of its spending than it has cut transfers to the provinces. I point out that it did back flips to preserve Liberal pensions and the finance minister led the charge in that whole argument.

The people who have been showing leadership in the country are those in the provincial governments. The only leadership this minister has shown is in defending his interests.

Will the finance minister commit to taking a page from the book of the provinces? Will he balance the budget and will he hold out the hope of tax relief for ordinary Canadians who actually pay taxes?

[Recognition Of Quebec As A Distinct Society, December 11th, 1995]

Madam Speaker, it is important to note on this important debate that the leader of the Conservative Party is not here.