André Harvey

[Supply, June 6th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question. I am sure that my colleague will understand that, in the whole process of government, before making any decision, it is important to have all of the relevant technical information.

This obviously requires very close work between the auditor general, the Department of Finance and the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency.

This work is currently being carried out. The calculations are in the process of being done. I am sure that our government will be fair in its solution to this problem, which affects all of the provinces, in fact, and indirectly, all citizens.

[Supply, June 6th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, the example comes from on high. The founding leader of his party was a member of just about every party in Canada. He even found that there were not enough parties, so he created a new one, the Bloc Quebecois. He quickly left it.

Nevertheless, the member enjoys quoting from my speeches. During the last election campaign, the Bloc Quebecois published all of my speeches. I guess they were pretty good, since I won by several thousand votes. I recommend they publish my speeches again in my riding. That would be most helpful.

If my speeches really were that bad, the Prime Minister has certainly forgiven me. This means that he is quick to forgive, because we are doing good work. My first concern—and I have not switched parties seven times, I only changed parties once—has always been my fellow citizens.

All of my constituents stood by me throughout this process, I guess. Rest assured that we will continue to do good work. I understand why the Bloc Quebecois is worried and nervous. According to the polls, they have the support of only 20% to 25% of voters.

We are looking forward to the next provincial election in Quebec. We know that their colleagues in the Parti Quebecois are in deep trouble. We are expecting, by the way, a Parti Quebecois leadership race in the fall. Their worries are understandable. I understand and share this concern of theirs.

[Supply, June 6th, 2002]

I hear hon. members yelling. They want to deal with tax issues by holding a referendum in the fall on tax points, on tax fairness, a referendum that will cost between $50 million and $75 million. One does not need to be an actuary to figure out that what is needed to solve our problems is co-operation, not confrontation. We do not consult the public on commonly accepted practices.

I think that federal-provincial relations must be productive on all issues. And in the issue before us, which is the result of technical overpayments, we should not blame the Canadian government for everything. The federal government is aware that a technical error was made and our role is to objectively look at the consequences.

This is not easy. We are in the process of conducting a technical analysis, in co-operation with the auditor general, the Department of Finance and the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency. I am convinced that, in this case as in others, we will find a solution that will suit everyone.

The role of the Canadian government is not merely to transfer funds. The role of the Canadian government and of provincial governments is to assume leadership in important areas.

I have nothing against my colleagues in the Bloc. I will explain calmly, without too much distress, and I tell myself what counts is finding the right solutions. Indeed, I recall that for 30 years it was a historic debate. “The federal government has to transfer hundreds of millions for manpower training to us”. Finally, after some thirty years, we did.

I meet a lot of stakeholders and I can say that the work the Government of Canada did in the field of manpower training continues to be respected today. We transferred it. They said that the government transfers $600 million annually to Quebec to manage this sector.

However, many stakeholders say to me “It is too bad. We liked it when the Canadian government had its manpower training programs. There were officials in all our little rural municipalities, who supported the development of these sectors”. We did it because it involved, as we said at the time, historic demands by Quebec. Finally, the federal government agreed to transfer the funds.

Today, the scenario is being repeated with parental leave, which we have just increased from 6 to 12 months. In Quebec, there is a big campaign underway to get the Canadian government to transfer funds for parental leave.

In Quebec, there is no program at the moment. However, they think that our program is particularly well thought out. It is not yet finalized. Once again they say “Transfer the money to us”.

The members opposite are eager to ask questions. They may be assured that I will respond to their comments with considerable patience. I will not be aggressive. I will explain the facts.

They are campaigning to get the funds for parental leave. We already have the program. In recent months, we have extended it from 6 months to 12 months. The fact that a program works well under the Canadian government is no reason for transferring it to the provincial governments all the time.

I can think of all kinds of examples where I believe the government should take responsibility. Take the CFDC in my region. I remember that the PQ government wanted to transfer the CFDCs and integrate them to the structure that they had just created a few months before. As far as I am concerned, when a federal government structure works well, it should be respected by all of the provincial stakeholders. I think this is important, and we will continue.

In my region, we have Canada Economic Development. Members of the Bloc Quebecois seem angry when the Government of Canada implements progressive measures that work well. The Government of Canada is not there to fade into the background. We are here to show that the Government of Canada is capable of doing good work. We are doing this when it comes to research. Instead of striking committees, we will be building laboratories for areas of research that are critical for regional development. I think it is important to recognize this.

As for the issue at hand today, I am not worried about the decision that our government will make. The decision regarding the four provinces that are directly affected and also those that are affected indirectly will be made in the interest of all Canadian taxpayers.

[Supply, June 6th, 2002]

Our role is to do everything we can to allow our partners to take part constructively in the improvement of fellow citizens' well-being.

In the issue before us today—

[Supply, June 6th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to say that I will be splitting my time with the hon. member for Algoma—Manitoulin. I have no doubt that my colleague will be making an extremely important contribution to this debate.

With respect to the substance of the motion before the House, everyone agrees that this is an extremely serious technical problem. Overpayments were made over a period of almost ten years, for technical reasons. Corrective action was taken two years ago. With the assistance of the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and the Department of Finance, the Canadian government is doing everything it can to try to find a solution which is fair for everyone. At least four provinces are directly affected by these overpayments. Since equalization payments are involved, this also affects the other Canadian provinces to a lesser extent, given that the proportion was altered slightly.

This is a significant problem, even if it does not involve $50 billion. But it is a question of fairness, and the government considers this a very serious matter. Our opposition colleagues often make very serious references to the auditor general's reports.

The role of the Canadian government is to work together with the auditor general, as it does on many other issues, to be sure that a reasonable solution is reached. Naturally, we must rely on the technical analyses of the auditor general, the Department of Finance and the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency.

In Quebec, we are used to this. It is always the federal government's fault. Even the temperature is blamed on the federal government. What I find surprising is that our Canadian Alliance colleagues are now spouting the same line. For all the opposition parties, individual or collective problems in this country are always the fault of the federal government.

Let us take health care in Quebec. The transfers were restored and there was good co-operation between the federal and the provincial governments, including the government of Quebec. It is not the federal government's fault if thousands of nurses have had to take early retirement. I have doctor friends who have had to take retirement.

Even with funding restored, there is a problem in the health sector. People need to be involved in sizing up the problem. There is an administrative problem as well, and this is true in all sectors.

I remember that, when we had the flood, some thought that the federal government was to blame. During my election campaign, the Parti Quebecois and the Bloc Quebecois held a press conference. One week before the election, they talked about the natural disaster that had occurred back home, the flood. The Canadian government was not present. It had not been invited. We had no responsibility regarding the flood, but we contributed to the restoring of major infrastructure to the tune of 90%.

When problems occur, we must face them with a minimum of serenity. Serenity and patience are good for one's health and also when dealing with issues. It is not true, as père Gédéon, the old Quebec television character, would often say, that it is the federal government's fault. We are all co-owners of the Canadian federation.

[Supply, June 6th, 2002]

Madam Speaker, what I mean is that he knows very well that the government considers the technical problem we are dealing with to be very serious.

Since he seems to have all the solutions and considers everything we have to contribute here as mere platitudes, I would like to ask him whether he intends to apply the same approach as the NDP did in Ontario, tripling the existing deficit within a single mandate.

[Supply, June 6th, 2002]

Madam Speaker, I am certain my colleague said more than he intended to when he said he heard nothing but platitudes from the government side. I will not even ask for an apology from him. I know he means well.

I would, however, like to point something out and take advantage of this opportunity to ask one little question of him. He has said, as you know, that the technical error started to show up in the accounting back in 1993, in other words that what was required to quantify the consequences of this technical error was in place.

At that same time, from 1990 to 1995, Ontario had an NDP government, which managed to take its deficit from $5 billion to, I believe, $15 billion within a single mandate, with all that technical information available.

I would like to ask my colleague whether they intend to follow the same principles as the Ontario NDP government applied at that time, or whether they intend to correct their platform.

[Supply, June 6th, 2002]

Madam Speaker, to be very honest, I wish to take advantage of my colleague's expertise. The bulk of his speech constituted an objective analysis of the opposition motion we are dealing with.

I am sure he is aware that the government, Canada Customs and Revenue and the Department of Finance in particular, are going to give very careful scrutiny to the technical error for the years 1993 to 1999.

I would, however, like to make the following point. Sometimes, when analyzing figures, there is a tendency, not always deliberate, to exaggerate certain information. I recall, for instance, the campaign launched in Quebec by the government in power concerning the 15 cent federal contribution to health care, while we now know that the figure is excess of 40% . This is public knowledge.

In would like to take advantage of the fact that my colleague has spoken on this issue. Given his frequent dealings with funding and his very clear understanding of the difference between tax points and equalization payments, I would like to ask him what he thinks of the present position by the Part Quebecois and even the government—the possibility is being discussed—of holding a referendum on tax points this fall, knowing that the cost of this referendum will be some $50 million and it is supposedly a known fact that a consensus will be readily attainable.

This morning I read an article by André Pratt in which he characterizes such a referendum as an exercise in futility, that will be costly and above all risky.

I would therefore ask my colleague, in all honesty, what he thinks of the appropriateness of holding a referendum which strikes all Quebecers as pointless and would cost between $50 million and $75 million.

[Canada Post Corporation Act, June 5th, 2002]

Madam Speaker, I can say that our department officials are looking closely at this issue. We discussed it yesterday, and you can be assured that we are aware that, in our small communities, such an issue must be considered as a major issue that is essential to their development.

There is, of course, the safety principle. We cannot always afford to say yes, when we know very well that we may put the safety of tourists at risk. I hope that we will be able to find a solution that will be satisfactory to all the stakeholders in the area, whom I want to thank. All the stakeholders in the area are co-operating with our officials and representatives. I hope that a solution can be found that will allow us to authorize commercial operations in the long term.

[Canada Post Corporation Act, June 5th, 2002]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague. I know he is very much aware that there are several places where ferries can cross from the south shore to the north shore.

There is, of course, the Rivière-du-Loup to Saint-Siméon ferry. I know Saint-Siméon very well because my parents were born there, and just hearing the name brings back happy memories. Then there is the Rimouski--Forestville ferry, and the problematic one, Trois-Pistoles--Les Escoumins.

In April, Transport Canada representatives discovered it had become extremely dangerous for the ferries to use this dock. Tourists would be at risk if the ferries were allowed, if I might put it that way, to dock there.

A meeting took place in early May between the shipping company, Navigation des Basques, confirming the vital importance of suspending activities. Obviously, it was not any great pleasure for our departmental employees to have to ask the minister to suspend commercial activities in a location where, as my colleague has just said, 80% of the traffic is tourism related, and has a spinoff effect on our small communities.

There are no easy solutions. In the very short term—and I look forward to see the most recent reports which we will soon have—there are various possible solutions. There are scenarios under which an investment of a few hundred thousand dollars could be made.

However, we could not resume operations in the very short time. It would not be possible before the month of August.

As my colleague pointed out, there are considerable costs involved in the almost complete renovation of the wharves. If I remember correctly, this would be a $10 million to $12 million project. It requires some study and reflection. Under this scenario, according to the information I have, the wharves would have to be closed for at least two to three years.

In a nutshell, the motivation of the Department of Transport and especially of the minister, with whom I had the opportunity to talk about this issue yesterday, is strictly a matter of safety. We cannot risk allowing operations between those two municipalities, Les Escoumins and Trois-Pistoles, and exposing local and foreign tourists to accidents. We would be accused of not having taken our responsibilities.

Meanwhile, there are of course short term alternative solutions. We could, for instance, use the ferries between Rivière-du-Loup and Saint-Siméon or between Rimouski and Forestville, or the Matane ferry. I know it is not the ideal solution, but people are on site trying to find a solution.

I am very much attached to this area. It is located very close to the mouth of the Saguenay fjord, which is now a Canadian national marine park. There are more and more tourists going there.

The bottom line is that we are very aware of the importance of the matter raised by the hon. member, but there are safety considerations involved. There are very short term deadlines. It would be difficult for us to invest $600,000 or $700,000 knowing that operations could not resume tomorrow morning.

There is another possible solution. We will allow our representatives from Transport Canada to pursue negotiations with local authorities.

I thank my colleague for having raised this matter tonight.