Charlie Penson

[Question No. 40—, October 23rd, 2001]

With regard to all government department and agency Internet web sites: ( a ) do they track visitors; ( b ) if so, what data do they compile on each visitor; ( c ) does each of these sites disclose that it is tracking and compiling personal information on visitors; and ( d ) what measures have been taken to ensure the privacy of visitors?

Return tabled.

[Canada—Costa Rica Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act, October 2nd, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to have my vote recorded in favour of this motion.

[Canadian Airline Industry, October 1st, 2001]

Madam Chairman, I am happy to participate in this take note debate. I will begin by looking at the federal government's role, in particular its role and legacy with respect to Air Canada and the airline industry in general. It is a sad legacy that goes back several decades.

Air Canada was incorporated by an act of parliament in 1937, although it was called TransCanada Airlines at the time. In 1965 it became a crown corporation and was renamed Air Canada. Like most other airlines it expanded dramatically during the sixties and seventies, largely fuelled by revenues from the population of Canada. However by the mid-1970s rising fuel costs, price wars and the recession took its toll.

Before restrictions were removed from CP Air, Air Canada carried almost 80% of domestic air traffic. However passengers and cargo declined drastically in the early 1980s with the recession that occurred. The previous Conservative government privatized Air Canada in 1989. It was a good move as it got rid of some of the crown corporations that were bleeding a lot of money from the Canadian public.

It was no surprise that financial losses for Air Canada continued even though it came out of it with a pretty generous restructuring package and a modern fleet when it was privatized.

With the introduction of the open skies agreement between Canada and the U.S., Air Canada introduced 99 direct flights to Florida. Overseas and transborder flights are where Air Canada earns the bulk of its profits. Domestic service, however, remains a problem.

After the Onex bid to merge Air Canada and Canadian Airlines was declared illegal by a Quebec court, the transport minister suspended the competition laws to give the two companies 90 days to talk merger. In December 1999, against the advice of the Competition Bureau, the government permitted Air Canada to swallow its only large competitor, Canadian Airlines, for $92 million or $2 a share. That is where it started to come apart.

We have a market economy in all sectors in Canada. Essentially 99% of all businesses operate under a market economy. We have a few regulated industries as well. Why was the market not allowed to take its natural course in the time that Canadian Airlines had problems?

Bankruptcies occur all the time. Many Canadian businesses are subject to bankruptcies in tough times. It is a natural part of the business cycle. The shares and product of Canadian Airlines could have been picked up by a company. It could have been accomplished for 20 cents on the dollar and a company could have been structured in a way that it could make money. However we gave it to Air Canada, the only major competitor. Not only that, we put it through a regulated environment, took it back to regulation, and the market economy was not allowed to take its course.

Even when Canadian Airlines was operating and swallowed PWA about 10 years earlier, it acquired too much debt. The same thing occurred with Air Canada when it took on Canadian Airlines. There was too much debt. Too many conditions were imposed in a regulated environment by the government.

Monopolies are not good for consumers. With 80% of the domestic market the new Air Canada was close to a total monopoly. In the vacuum of competition the Liberals attempted to regulate the situation by setting up watchdogs who, despite having $10 million in fines and jail terms to back them up, turned out to be rather toothless in practice.

The Canadian Transportation Agency was given powers to determine acceptable levels of prices to protect consumers against price gouging. The Competition Bureau was ordered to ensure that Air Canada did not deliberately undercut what little competition it had. It did not take long for the new Air Canada to flex its muscles against smaller airlines.

Following complaints from WestJet and CanJet the competition commissioner issued a temporary order requiring Air Canada to withdraw a targeted seat sale for routes served by the two discount airlines. This put the Competition Bureau in an awkward spot. An organization dedicated to protecting consumers by enhancing competition now found itself arguing for higher prices.

The Liberal government's style of corporate governance is a sham. It is a sad legacy of what should have happened in the country. There is no substitute for the market economy, and we are living evidence of it today when we talk about the difficulties in Air Canada. We have had regulated airlines and airlines that fail. There were three small ones in the last year. RootsAir is one that comes to mind. That is the legacy of the government.

Air Canada responded by challenging the order of the Competition Bureau on a constitutional basis that was rebuffed by the Quebec superior court. Air Canada tried again before the Competition Bureau but again it lost.

Currently the whole issue of whether Air Canada is abusing its dominant position by offering tickets below cost to drive out competition is before the tribunal. I recall being in Calgary about a month ago when two Air Canada flights, each half full, left for Vancouver seven minutes apart. Price is not the only way that competition can be discouraged. Overcapacity is another.

Prior to the September 11 incident Air Canada was getting busy to launch its own discount carrier and musing about entering the growth charter business. Obviously 80% of the market was not enough for Air Canada.

Why a monopoly was less tasteful to the Liberal government than increasing the foreign investment caps or allowing foreign airlines to compete in Canada is not the subject of this debate. However we would like to get involved in that another day.

The Liberals should resist the urge to intervene yet again in the airline industry. Let the market take its course. If the company goes bankrupt, somebody will pick up some of that fleet and offer service across the country in a good fashion.

Assistance to airline companies could include lowered or deferred air navigation fees, gas tax relief and continued third party liability indemnity. However no bailout for the industry.

What industry will be next? We have many that are suffering difficulties as a result of September 11. There have been four hour backups at the border with the United States last week. Members should think of the trucking companies and the tourism business in Quebec City and Whistler, B.C., that had conventions cancelled.

Any post-terrorist attack drop in air passenger traffic should be allowed to work itself out through the market. Ninety-nine per cent of Canadian businesses operate in a market economy. Why should the airline industry not do the same?

The unfortunate reality that existed prior to September 11 was that passenger traffic was down. There were too many half empty airplanes flying and too many employees to retain during the economic downturn that we all knew was coming.

Although there is no question and answer period this evening I would like to end with a question. If we bailout the airline industry how long will the list be of those who come next asking for the same treatment? Let the market decide what should happen.

[National Security, October 1st, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, Canadian industry wants to know who is standing up for business in this country in these difficult times at our borders. They want the minister to address U.S. security concerns. This must be a priority to ensure that free trade continues to cross our border and can be maintained.

While the industry minister appears to be sidelined, and that is pretty evident this afternoon, Canadian business organizations are already working to resolve this problem. Canadians need to know, what is the industry minister doing to stand up for them?

[National Security, October 1st, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, Canadian industries are facing the most significant problem in decades as a result of the security issues at the Canada-U.S. border. Recent polls show that a vast majority of Canadians are ready to make changes to create a North American security perimeter even if the government is not.

So far the industry minister seems to be really silent on this issue. What specifically is the minister doing to help business in Canada by creating this security perimeter?

[Agriculture, September 27th, 2001]

Mr. Chairman, when my hon. colleague from Selkirk--Interlake asked for this emergency debate, I was of two minds as to whether or not to participate. I have been involved in several emergency debates on agriculture in the almost nine years that I have been in the House and I honestly have to say that I am very discouraged. In fact I despair for the way agriculture has been treated and what the future is for agriculture in Canada.

Even though my colleague who just spoke said that he realizes the importance of the industry, in general terms I do not think the government recognizes its importance. I fail to understand how any government could ignore a basic industry which produces food for our country and think that it could build a modern economy if there is no security in our food supply. Is it going to let our farmers disappear and die? We can import corn into eastern Canada from the United States and we can import canola cheaper from the European Union because of all the subsidies, but some day that may change. If it changes, I suggest we will be in big trouble and it may not be as far off as we think.

In terms of security, we have seen what happened to the United States. We always think that things like that happen far away from us. My colleague from Elk Island talked about Ukraine. The Soviet Union had a deliberate policy to starve out the people of Ukraine in the 1920s and 1930s. Twenty million people perished because of that kind of policy. Any nation that does not have the ability or the foresight to look after its food supply is in jeopardy.

Why has the government chosen not to look after our farmers? We know that other countries have looked after their farmers. There are many ways of doing it. There is the subsidy route which the European Union chose. There are other methods. Canada continues to charge high taxes on fuel and fertilizer. We have heard this before. It is not as if the government does not choose to do the same thing with other sectors. Agriculture is obviously not a priority area for the government.

Grants and subsidies are going to businesses all the time. We are about to have another one hit us here next week regarding Air Canada. It wants $3 billion to $4 billion. I suggest the track record of the Liberal government will mean that it gets it. Yes, the airline industry is an important industry. What about Bombardier? Since January 1 it has come to the government twice. It was given a $1.7 billion loan guarantee to sell jets to Air Wisconsin and there was another one shortly after for $1.3 billion. Why? Because the competition is unfairly subsidizing its product and we have to keep pace. Does that sound vaguely familiar?

The European Union subsidizes its farmers to the extent of about ten times as much as Canadian farmers get. Not only is it supplying its own needs which we can accept, but it is using those export subsidies to steal our other markets in third world countries. Our farmers are withering and dying. I have been at functions and meetings with farmers. I have seen 30 farm wives in tears wondering how their farms are going to survive. Many of them did not survive. In the last few years there has been great devastation. We can choose to go down that road.

One of the members opposite said there has always been change and fewer family farms. That is true and it will continue to happen. Some farmers will survive. What about the fairness aspect of this? We can find money for Bombardier. We can find money to give to Pratt & Whitney and General Electric. HRDC grants of over $1 billion seem to go missing. McGill University asked for a grant of $60,000 out of that program and it was sent $160,000. That is the kind of nonsense that goes on. When farmers come knocking at the door, they are told there is not enough money and that they will just have to survive.

What about cultural grants? Yes, culture is a very important thing. We all need culture, but if we do not have a base economy, what kind of culture are we going to have in the future?

What about Shawinigan? We have money to give to hotel builders in Shawinigan to build hotels, conference centres and so on.

Let us assume that they had chosen not to give money to agriculture because it is not a priority area. How else could we help farmers? We could help farmers by getting out of the intervention that takes place. When farmers realized they could not look to the federal government for any more money, they would want to operate on a market basis and would find the markets to sell their product. However, if they did that the federal government would tell them that they had to sell their product to the Canadian Wheat Board, which will not let the farmer export. He might live five miles from the Canada-U.S, but he cannot take it across the border. He has to get a licence from the Canadian Wheat Board. It is more intervention and more control.

What about the Canadian Grain Commission? If some Canadian companies want to sell products that have 5% dockage and 95% product, wheat for example, to customers who want them, they cannot do that. The Canadian Grain Commission will not allow them to do it.

What about the transportation side? Farmers want to have a transportation, market driven system. They cannot have that because we have the Canada Transportation Act which limits what they can do. They also have to involve the Canadian Wheat Board which says they cannot have rail cars to ship their product unless it tells them to do so.

There is a lack of concern by the government in terms of trying to give some financial help to farmers. There is a lack of concern about letting them go their own way, like New Zealand. When New Zealand thought it was too heavy going and it had to get out of the subsidy business, it at least took the reins off the industry and let it go to a market industry so that railways could reduce their cost of doing business and people were not constricted in what they had to do in terms of monopoly situations.

If the government cannot help farmers it should get out of the way. That is what I say to the Liberals across the way.

We have heard some good speeches from the other side. I asked the chairman of the agriculture committee to take the committee to Grande Prairie a couple of years ago, in the Peace River country, an area that produces as much grain as the entire province of Manitoba. It would have been the first time the committee had ever been in my riding. I asked it to come to hear the concerns of the people. Yes, it came and I was grateful for it.

When the chairman, Mr. Harvard, started, I was a little tough on him. Some of the members of my riding asked me why I was being so tough on the Liberals because they seemed like good people. I told them that was fine, but to wait to see what they would deliver. They delivered great promises. There were speeches afterward at the chamber of commerce, and they got good press. They said they were listening, that they were our best friends and that they would do something. It never happened.

Why are we dubious? I have been here nine years and it is the same old story. We have these debates and yes, things will happen. We asked the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food for $500 million. The government could not do it. It rolled over money from one year to the next to make it look like it was doing something. I think it is just too little. If the government cannot help, it should get out of the way and let farmers choose their own course. That is what we need.

This year we have a devastating drought in many parts of the prairies. Also, in Ontario some of the other speakers have identified problem areas. That is the latest, but it has happened many times before in different forms. What have farmers come to expect of government? They have come to expect some help in these times.

We had major rains in one sector of the Peace River country. I applied to the Disaster Services Board. It said no. If a farmer took crop insurance he did not qualify. What happened in Ontario after the ice storm? The government could not wait to get cheques into the hands of those people. In fact, there were advances before the claims were even made. It was the same with the flood in the Saguenay. Let us try treating people equally and fairly in this country for a change.

We see where the Liberals are coming from. They are looking after certain sectors. They do not look after others.

I think I know why the Prime Minister did not come to Saskatchewan when it was looking for major help a couple of years ago. The Liberal candidate in Saskatoon summed it up quite nicely in the last election. She said “If you don't elect me, you're getting nothing”.

I see my colleagues from Saskatoon here. On this side of the House people will not take that kind of silliness in politics. We want fairness in this country. If the government will not give us fairness, it should get out of our way and let farmers choose their own course of action.

[National Security, September 27th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, Bill S-23 might be a good start but Canadians want to know that there is much more coming from the government. This is a very serious issue in a time of crisis.

What is at stake? Hundreds of billions of dollars a day in two way business with the U.S., business that depends on a just in time delivery basis. We cannot allow Canadian businesses to be shut out of the U.S. market because of inaction at our borders.

Does the minister not understand the need to resolve these issues immediately?

[National Security, September 27th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, the Business Council on National Issues has called for the government to move quickly on Canada-U.S. co-operation on our border.

Canada's largest businesses want real action to deal exclusively with border issues. They want to harmonize immigration and security laws to ensure the free flow of trade that our economies have come to depend on.

Given the gravity of the situation, will the government stand up for Canadian business and take real action to immediately harmonize our border with the U.S.?

[Trade, September 18th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, over the past few years, over $1.5 billion of goods has crossed the Canada-U.S. border every day on a just in time delivery system. Since the tragic events of last Tuesday, Canadian businesses have been co-operating with the new high security border regime. However, the current border slowdown is having a dramatic effect on our economy.

What specifically is the government doing to develop a new border protocol that will satisfy American security requirements while maintaining the free flow of goods across that border?

[Grants And Contributions, June 12th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I suggest he did not listen to the question, but I have another one for him.

In addition to companies maintaining accurate records, the Business Corporations Act requires that the bill of sale for the share transfer be an accurate document. The minister has the responsibility to ensure that the Business Corporations Act is enforced.

Will the industry minister use his legal authority to require that the date on the bill of sale for the Grand-Mère golf course also be verified by a forensic expert?