Gurmant Grewal

[Canada National Marine Conservation Areas Act, May 15th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the constituents of Surrey Central, I am pleased to participate in the second reading debate on Bill C-10, the Liberal government's attempt to create national marine conservation areas.

The objective of establishing marine conservation areas is to protect and conserve marine ecosystems found in the ocean environments of Canada and in the Great Lakes. The purpose of the bill is to establish rules that would allow the creation of national marine conservation areas.

The bill is actually unfinished business from the last Mulroney government. It took the weak Liberal government more than 13 years to tinker with the idea of creating marine conservation areas. It is still at step one after feeble attempts to introduce legislation in previous parliaments, namely Bill C-48 and Bill C-8. It shows the lack of commitment of the Liberals to protecting and conserving our environment.

In addition to preserving marine areas for the benefit and enjoyment of Canadians, the bill strives to establish a framework for regulating marine ecosystems and maintaining biological diversity. It is important to note that while environmental protection and sustainable development are important issues, they do not fall within the administrative responsibility of the Department of Canadian Heritage.

The bill makes provision for two schedules that are intended to include the names of marine conservations areas and reserves. The minister has identified 29 marine conservation areas and the intent to create new national parks, but in Bill C-10 the two schedules are blank. The actual locations of all 29 parks have not been identified.

As a past co-chair of the scrutiny of regulations committee I would imagine these lists could be filled in by regulation and we would find the 29 locations somewhere in the thousands of pages of regulations that no doubt accompany the bill. That is governing through the back door, not through the front door and not through the voices of elected members in the Chamber. The bill should describe the location of each park and that information should be inserted in the two schedules. I hope the matter is fleshed out during the committee hearings.

Bill C-10 would limit parliamentary input by giving cabinet the authority to create a new marine conservation area on crown land without going through the normal legislative process. Currently the government is required to come before parliament any time a new national park is to be established or an existing park is to be changed. The legislation would remove the power from parliament and would allow parks to be created or changed by order in council. That is ridiculous.

The minister states that activities such as commercial fishing and shipping would be appropriate in conservation areas. However all fishing, aquaculture, fisheries management, marine navigation and marine safety plans are subject to the approval of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the Minister of Canadian Heritage.

Similarly regulations affecting navigation or safety rules under the responsibility of the Minister of Transport must be made on the recommendation of both the Minister of Canadian Heritage and the Minister of Transport.

Disposal regulations pertaining to sections 127 and 128 of the Environmental Protection Act require the joint approval of the Minister of Canadian Heritage and the Minister of the Environment.

What is to be done about these contradictions and overlapping responsibilities? Clause 13 of the bill would limit or prohibit the exploration and exploitation of hydrocarbons, minerals, aggregates or any other inorganic material in all marine conservation areas. I anticipate hearing from stakeholders about this clause at the committee hearings.

There are considerations with respect to private property and reasonable search and seizure. Clause 22 of the bill states that, in the discharge of their duties, marine conservation area wardens, enforcement officers and persons accompanying them may enter and pass through private property. This is an invasion of the property rights of law-abiding citizens.

The weak and arrogant Liberal government has shown its pattern of disrespect for privacy rights and interference with personal property. We have seen that in Bill C-5, the endangered species legislation, where the arrogant Liberal government refused to offer fair compensation to Canadians.

Enforcing regulations is a serious issue and it is not addressed in the bill. In reference to Parks Canada, the director of the organization suggested that the RCMP be allowed to be involved in enforcement activities. Currently Parks Canada is involved in a labour dispute with its park wardens over personal safety. The bill contains the same deficiencies as the National Parks Act. It does not give park wardens sufficient authority to enforce the law.

Since 1993 there have been three separate reports recommending that sidearms be issued to wardens in order to fulfil their responsibilities. With park wardens off the job and other law enforcement agencies overburdened with enforcing criminal code violations, wildlife is being slaughtered in our national parks. The bill does not address any of these situations.

The Canadian Alliance affirms the federal government's role in the preservation of Canada's natural and historical heritage such as national parks. It supports sustaining and developing national parks and marine conservation areas that exist for the benefit and enjoyment of everyone. It also supports sustainable development and environmental protection regulations that have been fully debated by parliamentarians, not through the back door but through this Chamber.

The bill would strengthen the power of cabinet while diminishing the effectiveness of elected representatives. The bill is virtually unnecessary because the regulatory framework already exists to accomplish what the bill purports to achieve. It is just a power grab by a department that understands that it has a weak minister who does not understand that the new regulations are not required.

The legislation would clearly limit the ability of parliamentarians to consider all options when new marine areas are introduced or existing areas are expanded, with no input whatsoever when new parks are being created. The weak and arrogant Liberal government, time and again, abuses the Chamber and uses elected members as a rubber stamp. It does not give enough opportunity for debate by elected officials. There is no reason for this tight fisted form of control and undemocratic manner of proceeding. Like the bogus changes the government is proposing to Bill C-9, the Elections Act, Bill C-10 is also virtually anti-democratic.

The scope of the bill, as it relates to fishing, aquaculture and transportation, is such that changes to any schedule should require an act of parliament. Affected communities would be at the whim of the minister. The bill would give the Minister of Canadian Heritage a free reign to create unlimited advisory committees for each marine conservation area.

Limitations on the size and structure of each committee should have been established in the legislation. Will the committee that hears the bill allow these limits and rules to be established? I doubt it very much.

These advisory committees would give the government an opportunity for patronage in the way membership is composed and would serve no other purpose than that of a rubber stamp under the guise of public consultation. What we have here is yet another job creation program for failed Liberal election candidates and their supporters.

If marine wildlife and ecosystems are to be protected, park wardens should have exclusive jurisdiction in the enforcement of laws and regulations relating to each conservation area. Unfortunately, wardens are increasingly finding that they cannot do a proper job due to interference from Ottawa.

The decision by Parks Canada management to transfer responsibilities from park wardens to law enforcement agencies like the RCMP is Ottawa's way of centralizing tight fisted control away from the frontline officers who have the practical experience to know what does and does not work in Canada's national parks. What a shame.

The bill is a mess. It is as much an assault on our environment as an assault on the stakeholders in the regions that will be affected by it. My heart goes out to my colleague the Canadian Alliance heritage critic because I cannot see how the bill can be fixed or amended during committee stage.

On the one hand, the bill is not required because everything it does can already be done under regulations. On the other hand, it is a power grab by the minister and should be stopped 100%. Those concerned about preserving the environment can see that after 13 years of trying to bring the bill forward for debate in the House the government does not care about the environment.

I hope the bill looks significantly different when it comes back before the House following committee hearings. However, knowing the government's record, I doubt it. I hope the minister's secret agenda of power grabbing is exposed. I hope Canadians see clearly how little the government cares about the environment.

[Charities Registration (Security Information) Act, April 30th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate on behalf of the constituents of Surrey Central to send Bill C-16 to committee before second reading.

The legislation is the Liberal government's feeble attempt to prevent terrorist groups from obtaining charitable tax status. The solicitor general has tabled a grandiose scheme to try to prevent undesirables from setting up shop in Canada to raise money to overthrow a foreign government or for oppressive violent activities.

Money is often raised by force, with the threat of personal injury or death. We know that approximately 26 groups have charitable tax free status in our country thanks to the weak Liberal government that lacks vision and backbone. It is trying to pass some kind of multi-step program to slowly revoke the bogus charitable status of terrorist groups operating in Canada.

I will briefly describe the multi-step process set out in the bill that would lead to the denial of charitable status. First, the RCMP and CSIS would inform the Solicitor General of Canada and the Minister of National Revenue of an organization's suspected provision of resources to a terrorist group. If the ministers conclude that the organization makes or would make resources available for terrorism, these ministers would then sign a certificate to that effect.

Once the certificate is signed, the organization would be notified and the certificate would be referred to a federal court judge. The judge would review the intelligence reports in private and would provide a summary to the organization. If the judge upholds the certificate the organization would lose its charitable status for three years, subject to a review if there has been a change in material circumstances to the organization. Finally there would be no appeal of the judge's decision. That is the good news.

The impact of the bill is unlikely to be major. The process is sufficiently complicated that the first designation will probably not be made until years have lapsed. Provisions for in camera hearings are necessary to protect intelligence sources and methods. There are no such provisions in the bill.

Canada is obligated, pursuant to a United Nations convention, to make it a criminal offence to raise funds for terrorists. However the government is not serious about fighting crime or preventing terrorists from using bogus charitable status to raise taxpayer dollars to finance their schemes.

Recently I met with representatives from the Canadian Association for a United Sri Lanka. We discussed the United Nations international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism. The individuals I met pointed out that while many countries are expected to support the convention, at least 22 countries must ratify it before it can come into effect. So far only two countries have ratified it and I hope more will do so.

In the bill the government is doing nothing to stop criminals or terrorists from raising funds in Canada for terrorist activities. About a year ago two cabinet ministers attended a fundraiser in support of the Tamil Tigers in contravention of warnings from the U.S. state department, the high commission in Sri Lanka, CSIS and the RCMP. This demonstrated the Canadian government's lack of seriousness about fighting terrorism. It is only interested in doing what is politically expedient.

Canadian taxpayers are assisting the funding of terrorist activities because the money raised by these bogus charitable status organizations is subsidized by the taxpayer. Even if the tax status were removed, however, would the government stop these organizations from raising funds in Canada? I do not think so. There is nothing about that in the bill. It is a violation of the UN convention.

Let us look at the activities of the finance minister and the international development minister. They attended a questionable fundraising event. Article 2, section 5 of the United Nations international convention for the suppression of the financing of terrorism says:

Any person also commits an offence if that person:

(a) Participates in an offence...

(b) Organizes or directs others to commit an offence...

(c) Contributes to the commission of one or more offences...

The two cabinet ministers could be charged under this section of the UN convention.

The shameful case of Ahmed Ressam should set off alarm bells and signify to the government how weak and ineffective it is at fighting terrorism. This was a textbook case of a terrorist who was arrested crossing the border from Canada to the United States on December 14, 1999. Ressam had plans, the ability and the material to commit a bombing in the United States.

The details of this man's life for the previous five years have come out at his trial in the U.S. where he was convicted on all nine indictments against him. The case reads like an indictment of the Liberal government. Canada has no laws against terrorism thanks to a weak Liberal government which lacks vision, a backbone and the political will to combat terrorism.

Ressam, like other terrorists, took advantage of our lax refugee and immigration system. He arrived in Montreal in 1994 and claimed refugee status at the airport, describing himself as a suspected Islamic terrorist. He was fingerprinted, and guess what? He was set free.

He collected welfare for most of the five years. He was not deported after he was arrested for theft. Later he was arrested for pickpocketing elderly women and set free again. He was arrested for stealing luggage and set free again.

He failed to show up at his refugee hearing in 1995 and the refugee board concluded that he had abandoned his claim. Rather than deporting him at that stage, the board allowed him to appeal that decision in 1996 and he was set free again.

He then changed his identity and got a Canadian passport. Let us imagine a terrorist getting a Canadian passport. Then he got a social insurance card and a Quebec driver's licence and began to travel the world, pursuing terrorist training outside Canada that included an association with Bin Laden.

In 1999 French government representatives tried to get into Canada to interview Ressam but was not allowed in until October. After October they immediately got the goods on the guy by searching his apartment in Montreal, although Ressam was nowhere to be found.

Finally he showed up. He showed up trying to get into the U.S. in December and was arrested. The world is disappointed in Canada. What would have happened if Ressam had been arrested in Canada? He would have received a maximum of ten years, of which only two would be spent in jail. Having been convicted in the U.S. he will now spend one hundred years in jail.

In conclusion, after years of the Reform Party and now the Canadian Alliance fighting for tougher laws to combat gangs, criminal activities and terrorist organizations, the Liberal government has finally introduced some of the legislation we have been calling for. However the weak Liberal government that lacks the political will to get tough on crime, particularly organized crime and terrorism, has only done so under pressure from the opposition, the United Nations, the public, the RCMP and CSIS.

Combating organized crime and terrorism was part of the Alliance justice platform. However the bill is a feeble attempt by the government to address the issue. It will be ineffective and lengthy and will lead nowhere. It is not enough. It is not the giant step that is needed. We will therefore be opposing the legislation.

[Gold Mines, April 26th, 2001]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate on private member's motion No. 295. It states:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should table emergency legislation regarding operating assistance for gold mines in Canada, in order to help gold mine operators cope with the rapid increase in production costs, and at the same time guaranteeing a fixed price for the gold they produce.

I commend the hon. member for bringing his concerns about Canada's gold mine industry and his region to the floor of the House.

However, after carefully listening to the hon. member I am still having great difficulty understanding where the emergency is in the gold mining industry. It is no surprise that the parliamentary secretary refused consent or that the government is unwilling to adopt this motion.

With the motion the hon. member is exonerating himself in the eyes of his gold mining constituency. I guess we can regret that he could not satisfy the concerns of his gold mine constituency in his talks with cabinet colleagues. It seems that they have told him to take his concern to private members' business because as a government his own party will not implement the motion. The parliamentary secretary was quite articulate and very blunt in refusing to adopt the motion. I am not sure that this is the case, but I do not know what else could have happened.

The motion asks for subsidies for gold mining in Canada and a fixed price for the gold these mines produce. In British Columbia we do not like unfair subsidies from this weak Liberal government that lacks vision. The government subsidizes industries destined to fail or which have already failed.

We know the Liberals have destroyed our health care system and are not addressing Canada's $640 billion debt, but they will spend taxpayer dollars anywhere they think they can buy votes. Canadians do not want the Liberals' subsidies, extra regulations, trade restrictions, price fixing or anything else of that nature. Businesses want the government off their backs.

Let us look at British Columbia's mining industry and gold mining. That will give me an opportunity to discuss mining in British Columbia and gold mining as whole. Mining is a major contributor to the British Columbian and Canadian economies in the form of employment, taxes and exports. Across Canada it generates 60% of rail revenue and accounts for 70% of total port volume.

In British Columbia mining generates over $4 billion in revenue and $1 billion in government taxes per year. Mining is a leading employer in British Columbia, with substantial potential to do more. It has 10,000 direct jobs and 20,000 indirect jobs.

Mining is a world leading source of expertise and venture capital. British Columbian companies fund mining projects worldwide.

Mining pays the highest wages and benefits of any industry.

It is an environmentally and socially responsible industry. Mining lands are reclaimed and at the end of a mine's life the land can be put to other uses.

British Columbia's mineral potential is considered to be among the leaders in the world. British Columbia has over 14,000 known mineral occurrences and untold mineral potential.

Actual land usage for a mine is extremely small relative to the area explored, with less than 28,000 hectares currently being used by mining, which is less than 0.03% of British Columbia's land base. Mining's value in terms of use of land is $150,000 per hectare compared to forestry at $5,700 per hectare, agriculture at $1,400 per hectare, and parks at $42 per hectare.

There are many other benefits. There were 103 kilometres of roads or trails built for mineral exploration in 1993. At the same time there were 11,400 kilometres of road built for forestry.

In 1999 exploration expenditures totalled $25 million or less than 10% of 1990 levels. In the past 10 years, two mines closed for every one that opened.

In British Columbia we are against this motion. How can we support subsidizing gold mines and leave out other mines and other industries? At least those industries provide a national purpose. Conversely, the health of the gold mining industry, other than preserving jobs, serves little public interest. Consequently, public dollars should not be spent subsidizing the industry.

There is one gold mine in British Columbia, the Eskay Creek mine, which produces gold at a production cost of less than $100 an ounce. In Canada it is second in cost production for gold. This is excellent work. There is no subsidy needed. Why should that mine's good work be confounded by a fixed price when it comes time for it to sell its products?

Canada is the second largest country in the world in area and we are very rich in our natural resources. These natural resources, including minerals, oil and gas, are important sources for a brighter future for our country. Unfortunately the federal Liberal government lacks vision and strategic planning in developing, exploring and utilizing these resources. It lacks a balanced approach between resource development and environmental concerns.

We should have more resource based industries in Canada. For example, at the Vancouver port we can see lot of sulphur being exported from Canada. It can be seen from quite a distance. I wonder if we are exporting these raw resources and then importing finished products made from these resources in other countries. Why are we not able to encourage investors and manufacturers who will boost our economy and create jobs in Canada? It is a tragedy under this weak, arrogant Liberal government that rules rather than governs the land.

The story of the mining industry in Canada is a tragedy. The amount of regulation and red tape is unbelievable. The federal and provincial jurisdictions are either overlapping or absolutely unclear. Federal and provincial taxes are way too high. This weak government has a confrontational approach to the provinces rather than a co-operative approach. Mining operations require investing a lot of time and energy as well as the investment of other kinds of resources. It is a long term process to explore for minerals. Adverse government policies have driven miners from all kinds of mines, including gold mines, south of the border. In Chile, for example, we have a $12 billion U.S. investment, mostly in the mining industry.

In the city of Surrey in my constituency there are a number of companies that deal with the mining industry. I am very proud to mention RAS Industries. It manufactures the largest pulleys in the world for mining operations and exports them around the world. There are many other organizations of international repute in Surrey.

Rather than fixing the price for gold, what the weak Liberal government should fix is the infrastructure, the regulations and the taxation policies. It should at least make a feeble attempt to fix these things rather than fixing the price of gold, which is in the hands of the global market anyway. The price of gold is fixed through the commodity market exchanges or through the intervention of the central banks, the national banks or the reserve banks of various countries. It is a global phenomenon. Canada does not have the jurisdiction, the authority, the power or the resources to fix the price of gold.

The government should listen to our resource based communities and should accommodate the input from them in the policy formulation for natural resources. Simply mentioning in the throne speech of 1996 the need to sustain our natural resources is just not enough. Where is the action?

Natural resources contribute about 15% to our GDP. The government must develop a vision and make policies and regulations conducive to sustainable development, benefiting the economy, creating jobs, benefiting communities and, on the whole, protecting our environment.

Since this is a private member's motion, I have been very kind in my remarks. If it had been a government bill or motion, I would have been quite brutal.

[Canada Elections Act, April 26th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the constituents of Surrey Central, I am very pleased to participate in the third reading debate on Bill C-9, the Liberal government's proposed changes to the elections act.

Before I begin my remarks I want to commend the hon. member for Lanark—Carleton for his significant contribution to this debate. His comments are highly appreciated.

The bill has two main focuses. First, Bill C-9 would amend the Canada Elections Act so that candidates, other than those of registered parties, may have the option of indicating their political affiliation on the ballot. Second, it provides for various technical amendments that would correct certain details of the new Canada Elections Act. The bill is supposed to amend the Canada Elections Act that became law on September 1, 2000 in the last parliament.

The Liberals passed the bill only a few months ago. The bill we are debating today is the Liberal government's attempt to correct the mistakes they made in the previous bill in the 36th parliament.

The official opposition is continuing to try to force the government to do its work, as we asked it to do in the 36th parliament. I spoke to that bill in the last parliament and I warned the government about the pitfalls which it did not prevent.

As I said at second reading of the bill, I do not mind helping the Liberals to do their homework. I will present some ideas which the government can listen to and adopt amendments to the bill so that it does not have to amend it again after a little while.

The chief electoral officer appeared before the procedure and House affairs standing committee that conducted hearings on the bill last month. He said that these technical amendments did not raise any administrative concerns, apart from the fact that they were not exhaustive. The chief electoral officer also said that he had discovered other provisions that would warrant revision since some of these technical amendments created undesirable effects. The light is flashing, but I do not know if the Liberals are listening.

For example, Bill C-9 does not resolve the incongruity of the situation in which eligible and suspended parties are considered exactly like third parties. There should be some difference between a small political party and one that has been suspended. These two types of party status are seen as the same. However they are different and our laws should reflect that. At this late stage of the bill's progress, that is third and final reading, I ask the government what will it do about the fact that suspended parties are treated the same way as a small party. It is unfair.

There is also a concern that parties, which are not represented in the House regularly, raise questions about their participation in the electoral process. The chief electoral officer is concerned about the frequency and wide range of complaints about how smaller parties are treated and the obstacles they face trying to compete with large, more established political parties like the governing Liberals. Our electoral system should be fixed so that everyone is treated fairly and equally. The weak Liberal government that lacks vision is not addressing these problems in the bill.

The chief electoral officer will be tabling a report in the fall of 2001 wherein he will suggest ways to improve the current system. We look forward to his report, but I am sure that members on the government side do not.

The bill's provisions regarding the identification of political affiliation on ballots raises another question. It creates a two tier political party system, with different kinds of benefits accruing to political parties, depending on whether they are large parties with 12 or more candidates or small parties. The Liberals are only passing the bill because they want to limit their competition. That is undemocratic.

During the debate at second reading we heard many speakers indicating the problems they had experienced with Elections Canada during the last election and in the previous election. The government could make improvements to the way we conduct our elections. The Liberals have refused to pass Canadian Alliance amendments proposed at committee stage. Those amendments would have made the bill more acceptable to smaller parties.

For example, leaders of Canada's smaller political parties testified before the procedure and house affairs standing committee on the invitation of the Canadian Alliance critic for intergovernmental affairs. Ron Gray, leader of the Christian Heritage Party; Chris Bradshaw, leader of the Green Party; and Miguel Figueroa, leader of the Communist Party testified to the discriminatory spirit of the bill.

Under the bill proposed by the Liberals, large parties with 12 or more candidates or registered parties would have the right to receive final electors lists, issue tax receipts, reimbursement of partial election expenses, broadcasting time on national TV and preferential rates during prime time. Smaller parties and independent candidates are barred access to those resources.

At committee stage of Bill C-9, the Canadian Alliance tried to have several amendments passed but the Liberal dominated committee refused them. We tried to have the Liberals adopt the following amendment:

The Chief Electoral Officer shall deliver a printed copy and a copy in electronic form of the final lists of electors for each electoral district to each candidate.

We wanted to change the word party to candidate. This would make the act more democratic. There is no reason to prevent any candidate from receiving that list. It would be undemocratic if candidates were not treated fairly and equally and were not given the electors list so that they could do their campaigning. How could we prevent them from having access to the final electors list while candidates from established larger political parties have access to that list? That is very unfair. The Liberals refused to accept that amendment.

Another amendment submitted by the Canadian Alliance would strike the phrase, in the preceding election, from subclause 12(2)(d). In the case of a general election a party has candidates whose nominations have been confirmed in at least 12 electoral districts.

The way the clause reads now and would continue to read prevents a candidate in a byelection from having the party name with which he or she is affiliated appear on the ballot unless the party was qualified to have its name appear on the ballot in the previous general election. This again is an unfair situation that new political parties would face in a byelection.

The Liberals should not be afraid of new political parties. The government should be careful not to put any barriers in the way of new parties. This would encourage democracy to flourish, but the Liberals do not want that.

In clause 17 of Bill C-9 we tried to have subsection 335(1) of the act replaced with the following:

In the period beginning with the issue of the writs for a general election and ending at midnight on the day before polling day, every broadcaster shall, subject to the regulations made under the Broadcasting Act and the conditions of its licence, make available, for purchase by all political parties for the transmission of political announcements and other programming produced by or on behalf of the political parties, six and one half hours of broadcasting time during prime time on its facilities.

Once again, the official opposition was pleading the case of smaller or newer political parties. We wanted to remove the word registered from appearing before the word party so that any party could have access to broadcasting time, thus giving all parties an equal opportunity.

We tried to make it possible for a party to become a registered party if it could obtain the names of 5,000 electors who were members of that party or who supported the right of the party to be a registered party. It would be fair and make our democracy more open and transparent. However the Liberals refused it.

Most Canadians feel that under our electoral system every candidate in Canada must have equal access to the electoral list and the ability to issue tax receipts regardless of political affiliation, but the Liberals do not want that. They are so arrogant and heavy-handed and into power and control that they want to crush even the smallest voices in our electoral system. The bill is all about incumbency protection.

It is apparent that the Liberals would go to any length to protect their seats and even deny the democratic rights of other Canadians. We must not forget that the bill is the government's response to the Ontario Court of Appeal ruling on Communist Party leader, Mr. Miguel Figueroa's challenge to the limitations imposed on smaller parties as a result of Bill C-2 that came into effect in November 2000.

Bill C-2 was flawed. The Liberals did not listen to the opposition, other Canadians and witnesses who appeared before the committee. I spoke in the debate on that bill in the previous parliament and I warned the Liberals that their phony bill would be challenged in the courts. I warned them that they would lose the case. It was challenged and they did lose the case.

The Communist Party has pledged to sue the government as soon as Bill C-9 is passed. I warn them again. I may have to speak again when the bill comes back before the House. I remind them that it is the opinion of the four political party leaders who testified before the committee that the Liberal government is only grudgingly complying with the Ontario court's decision. It is doing so in the narrowest possible sense. Anyone supporting Bill C-9 is pulling up the drawbridge to the House of Commons.

If these measures had been in place 10 years ago, new parties like the Reform Party of Canada would have been barred access to the vital resources that facilitated its rise to the office of the official opposition and now the Canadian Alliance Party.

Among other technical matters Bill C-9 also stipulates that if the chief electoral officer wishes to examine alternative voting processes such as electronic voting, the alternative cannot be used without the approval of both the House and the Senate committees. Under the current legislation only approval of the House of Commons committee is required to give the chief electoral officer the freedom to examine alternatives that are innovative and could help modernize our electoral process, which is a good thing.

However on this side of the House our ears perk up when we hear the word Senate. Are the Liberals preparing to have the Senate kill any innovative ideas the chief electoral officer wants to propose? We know for sure that we cannot trust the government.

At committee hearings the Canadian Alliance proposed to amend this part of the bill but our amendment was again struck down. We know that the Senate is not elected. How could it interfere with the election process when senators are not elected? It is very unfair and undemocratic. The Canadian Alliance policy declares:

To improve the representative nature of our electoral system, we will consider electoral reforms, including proportional representation, the single transferable ballot, electronic voting, and fixed election dates, and will submit such options to voters in a nationwide referendum.

Bill C-9 does not go far enough to democratize our electoral process. We believe all parties should be treated equally and fairly, not merely those with 50 or more candidates or 12 or more candidates.

It is unfortunate that when the House was debating Bill C-2 in the last session the Liberals ignored the Reform Party's recommendation to drop the 50 candidate rule. As usual, the Liberals were forced into action not by the wishes of Canadians but by a court ruling.

When Bill C-2 was before the procedure and House affairs committee, constitutional lawyer Gerald Chipeur made it clear to the Liberals that the 50 candidate rule would be struck down. The Canadian Alliance always rejected the Liberal's claim that the 50 candidate rule was designed to protect voters from frivolous parties.

The Canadian Alliance believes that voters and not the government, this arrogant, weak Liberal government that lacks vision, should decide whether a party or candidate is worthy of their vote. If Canadians feel a candidate or political party is worthy of their vote then they should vote for them. It should not be up to the government to tell Canadians which candidate or party is worthy of their vote.

The Canadian Alliance is very unhappy that Bill C-9 creates two classes of political parties. There should be an equal and fair opportunity for each party and candidate in the electoral process. However the bill denies that. It creates two classes of parties.

The Canadian Alliance believes the Canada Elections Act should be neutral and treat everyone equally and fairly. Bill C-9 is not neutral because of the reasons I have mentioned. It creates two classes of political parties and does not give equal opportunity to all candidates. We are therefore left with no option but to oppose the bill.

The government still has time to give Bill C-9 a second thought. I know it is late, but the government should have given it a second thought and accepted the amendments, listened to the witnesses in committee and given every candidate and party an equal opportunity.

The bill is not only undemocratic; it is anti-democratic. We have an elected dictatorship in Canada and that will not change if the bill is not changed. Let us see how Canadians feel. We on this side of the House oppose the bill.

[Resource Industries, April 24th, 2001]

I will wind up, then. I wanted to talk about how parliament was not consulted when we signed the treaties at the Kyoto, Beijing and Rio conferences. I will therefore say that the government needs to focus more on the state of natural resources in Canada and to come up with a clear vision on how to handle these things effectively in the future.

I did not touch on energy, electricity and nuclear power. Perhaps another time I can talk about that.

[Resource Industries, April 24th, 2001]

Madam Chairman, it is a pleasure to participate in this take note debate in committee of the whole on the state of Canada's resource industries.

Canada is the second largest country in the world in area and it is very rich in natural resources, which are an important source to a brighter future for our country. However, the government lacks vision and strategic planning in developing, exploring and utilizing these resources.

I notice that the government also lacks a balanced approach between resource development and environmental concerns. I will give a few examples to make my point, particularly in the mining industry.

I had an opportunity to visit a few mining industries. I have about 40 mining related industries that produce something for the mining industries in my constituency of Surrey Central. After talking with various individuals and businessmen in the mining industry, I learned that they consider it to be a tragedy the way the mining industry has been treated by the various governments, both federal and provincial. They are also upset with the regulations. They feel that the regulations are bureaucratic red tape in order to discourage them. Similarly, they say that the federal-provincial jurisdictions in some areas overlap and that in other areas they are not clear.

The mining industries spend a lot of time exploring and setting their infrastructure. They also use a lot of energy in terms of their management input and taxation becomes another factor that is driving them south. As an example, we have a $12 billion dollar investment in Chile which is three times more than our investment in Japan. We have invested $42 billion alone in the Americas outside of the U.S.

We are all aware of the softwood lumber crisis in the forestry industry. The people involved in that industry are very discouraged with the recent skirmish that has been going on. Free trade seems to be only one way but, when it comes to our natural resources, free trade has let Canadians down because of the poor planning, poor negotiating skills or mismanagement by the government.

I believe that anti-dumping and countervailing have not been handled right for many years. This new investigation by the U.S.A. in this area will probably worsen the relationship between the two countries on the trade front in forestry and especially in softwood lumber and in remanufacturing demanufactured products.

I visited a factory in my riding which utilizes waste products in the forest industry. That industry is also suffering because of poor negotiating that took place in the past. The federal government's policy on water exports is not clear. It does not seem to have a vision on how to handle the resource. It also has no clear policy regarding the production, export and pricing of electricity. We do not know where the government stands on such issues as air, flora and fauna, and endangered species.

I heard the speech of the secretary of state. I understand the challenges the government faces in terms of geography, density, remote areas and communities that depend on the mining industry and infrastructure development. We lack infrastructure development in Canada as far as natural resource rich rural communities are concerned. In addition, we know the market size is small. Regulatory and communication policies are stretched.

Natural resources contribute about 15% of our GDP. In 1996 the government mentioned in its throne speech the need for sustainable development of our natural resources.

As my time is up, can I have unanimous consent to increase my time by 15 minutes?

[Supply, April 24th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to participate in this debate on behalf of the people of Surrey Central on the timely motion by the third party:

That the government put in place an open and ongoing process to keep Parliament informed of negotiations to establish a Free Trade Area of the Americas so as to allow parliamentarians to debate it and civil society to be consulted before Parliament approves it.

The Bloc is using the summit of the Americas as a catalyst to put the spotlight on parliamentary reform. The Canadian Alliance, along with other parties, has been pushing the government to change the way we govern ourselves in this place.

The motion today is very much in sync with our agenda. The Canadian Alliance wants three things from the government as a result of the successful summit of the Americas. First, we want the text of the proposed free trade agreement of the Americas released once its translation is complete. Second, we want information regarding changes to the agreement to be made public. Third, we want input by parliamentarians. We understand it has not been easy to translate parts of the agreement, but this is a requirement of the motion and the government must comply.

Finally, in the spirit of democratic parliamentary reform we think it is time to force the government to include the House of Commons in the negotiation of these types of treaties. A take note debate is simply not enough. When the government makes the decision and then asks the House to debate, that is not democratic.

The summit of the Americas is particularly important to Canadians because Canada has $42 million invested in the Americas outside the U.S. Over 90% of goods from Latin and Central America and the Caribbean come to Canada duty free. Canada exports 45% of the GDP, so it is very important that we discuss the issue in parliament.

The Canadian Alliance recognizes the enormous benefit of free trade to our country. It will broaden our trading rights. It is mutually beneficial to participating countries. It gives consumers a better choice of goods and services at cheaper prices compared to tariff protected economies. It helps us get value added products. It helps bring about prosperity and development in Canada. It enhances freedom of enterprise, democracy and good governance. It enhances the voluntary exchange of goods, services and money. It protects intellectual property rights. The discussion of free trade in the House is therefore very important.

Parliamentary debate is also important because a number of questions remain unanswered. Questions about trade disputes, softwood lumber, agriculture and fisheries have not been addressed at all.

Also, what is Canada's role in the FTAA? We do not yet know. What are the benefits versus the costs of dealing with those countries?

It is difficult to debate that because so little has been made public by the government. We also need to know what criteria the government is using to promote trade relations in the FTAA. How about our trade policy?

We need to debate these things. We need to know how we will be dealing with or holding those nations accountable for their human rights record, as well as good government practices. How about trade sanctions against any rogue nation?

These things are important, particularly with the increase in organized crime and international crime. We need to know these things, but this weak Liberal government has not given parliament a chance to deal with them.

[Criminal Code, April 23rd, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member for Provencher, the chief critic for justice for the Official Opposition of Canada, mentioned in his speech there was a private member's bill in the last parliament. The bill was moved by the Bloc member. It was a very good bill and would make it a crime to belong to a criminal organization

I believe the government should look into that. It is a very serious and effective preventive type of bill that would help to effectively control crime.

The other part of the hon. member's question was about the resources. The $200 million spread over five years is a drop in the bucket. Imagine the money the organized criminals make. They use that money to buy sophisticated technology. They have the art of technology which they use to evade the law enforcement agencies. Our law enforcement agencies should have better technology than those people. Only then could they catch them. The $200 million is a very minimal resource.

He also mentioned threats probably to the frontline police officers who were dealing with the organized criminals and to the MPs, senators, judges, prosecutors, the media and all those people who could be involved along with their families. That would be important.

The resources and the tools are really important elements of the bill.

[Criminal Code, April 23rd, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I know that all members in the House and the people who are watching this debate are concerned about organized crime in Canada. Organized crime is a hidden crime. Many times people do not know what is happening behind the scenes because organized crime is low profile. Illegal and criminal activities happen yet the public does not know about them because there are no means for the RCMP and other law enforcement agencies to follow them and they go unnoticed.

When I was talking to a frontline police officer, I was surprised when she said that even if there were 10 clear leads on organized crime, they did not have enough resources to follow one of the leads. It is very disturbing when law enforcement agencies say that.

I do not think the hon. members of the House are proud about this issue. The progress we have made on organized crime is very little. The reason is the lack of political will by our federal government and the lack of co-operation with the provincial governments. The government believes in a confrontational approach with the provinces rather than a co-operational approach. We should probably do everything we can within our limits to be effective in controlling organized crime.

In a nutshell, the recommendations which I put forward earlier are very serious recommendations. This is not a partisan issue. We are not talking politics here. We are not looking through the lens of politics. We are looking through the lens of issues. It is very important for the future of Canadians. Our national security rests with the legislation we are passing to effectively control organized criminal activities.

We do not want Canada to be a haven for organized criminals to conduct their criminal activities. Therefore, as legislators we have to form the legislation with those tools which are effective and which give the law enforcement agencies all the facilities, tools and resources they need to effectively control organized crime.

[Criminal Code, April 23rd, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the constituents of Surrey Central I am pleased to participate in the debate on Bill C-24, an act to amend the criminal code respecting organized crime and law enforcement and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

The bill has two main purposes: first, to provide new tools in the fight against organized crime; and, second, to respond to the 1999 supreme court decision in R. v Campbell and Shirose, which put in doubt the ability of police and police informants to break the law as part of undercover operations aimed at penetrating criminal organizations.

After years of the Reform Party of Canada, now the Canadian Alliance, fighting for tougher laws to help combat gangs and other criminal organizations, the federal Liberals have finally introduced some of the legislation we have been calling for. The fact is that the weak Liberal government lacks the political will to get tough on crime, particularly on organized crime.

It has introduced this legislation because of intense pressure from the official opposition and other opposition parties and because of the pressure from police and the public in general. Combating organized crime was part of the detailed justice platform released during the election campaign by the Canadian Alliance.

The penetration of organized crime into Canadian society is a very serious matter. Criminals move from jurisdictions with strong controls to jurisdictions with weak or no controls. This criminal activity undermines Canada's financial and social systems and increases the power and influence of illegal businesses.

A staggering variety of activities such as extortion, home invasion, murder, theft, drugs and arms trafficking, counterfeit currency and passports, migrant smuggling, prostitution, Mafia, casino and lottery frauds are additional costs to society at the expense of the taxpayer and at the expense of our future. These activities make our streets unsafe.

We in Canada are also concerned that the privacy of Canadian citizens could be unreasonably invaded. There should be sufficient protection and the freedom of law-abiding citizens should be preserved. The loopholes in the system and the law are not plugged in Canada. That is the main problem. Canada is a candy store for these criminals. Unfortunately criminals have the motivation to come to Canada and commit crimes because they consider Canada to be a crime haven.

The blurred vision of the Liberals has caused the dismantling of Vancouver port police. Everyone knows that. This makes the port a gateway for the importation of drugs and narcotics. It opens up the way for criminals and makes their jobs easier rather than tougher. It is a shame that the Liberal government gives international organized criminals VIP treatment while those same criminals, according to the Immigration Act, are supposed to be inadmissible to Canada.

I remember when I was on the immigration and citizenship committee that we introduced a motion to study fraud and criminal activities under the Immigration Act not for general immigrants but for illegitimate and criminal elements coming to the country. Liberal members refused that motion.

Previous legislative attempts to deal with the problem have been ineffective. Bill C-95 did not go far enough in providing the tools needed for the law enforcement agencies to fight organized crime.

Years ago, perhaps in the early 1980s, the government of the day not only ignored the recommendations of the law enforcement agencies but it even refused to acknowledge the existence of organized criminal activities in Canada. Since that time organized crime has significantly increased. Canada has now become a global centre and a haven for organized crime because of its laws.

Whatever the government does now it is too late and too little. The criminals are lightyears ahead of the law enforcement agencies. They have more resources, more money and better state of the art technology while the agencies on the other side even lack the law with tooth and are struggling to maintain yesterday's technology.

A Liberal dominated subcommittee of the justice standing committee on organized crime held in camera hearings on the problem and issued its report just prior to the dissolution of the House. I will talk about that report in a short while.

I also want to mention that I represented the official opposition as a member of the subcommittee on organized crime. Since the hearings were in camera I will not go into detail but will talk about some of the issues that are in the public domain.

It is sad that the recommendations of the subcommittee were not fully implemented through this bill. Even though the committee was a Liberal dominated committee, the bill of course would enhance the fight against organized crime, though not enough, and should not be delayed unduly.

I will now talk about the main features of the bill. There will be longer consecutive sentences for gang activity: up to five years for participating in a criminal organization; 14 years for carrying out indictable offences for the benefit of a criminal organization; and life for being the leader of a criminal organization.

A new definition of a criminal organization would be: only three members required instead of the current five; there is no need to prove that members participated in indictable offences in the five years preceding prosecution and providing that, in addition to indictable offences punishable by five years or more, offences can be prescribed as serious offences.

It is stated that the intention is to cover offences, such as prostitution and gambling, that are controlled by organized crime.

Another point is the protection of justice system participants. Threatening a judge, prosecutor, juror, et cetera, or a member of their family would be punishable by up to 14 years and murdering a justice system participant would be first degree murder.

The next point concerns police immunity. The solicitor general responsible for the RCMP or provincial ministers responsible for the police will be able to designate officers who may, in the course of an investigation, commit offences other than offences causing bodily harm, obstructing justice or sexual offences.

Forfeiture of property would apply to all property used in committing a crime rather than just property especially built to carry out the crime. Judges will have to determine whether the forfeiture is appropriate given the nature of the crime. Presumably a house may not be forfeited if five marijuana plants are found in it but it could be if 500 or 5,000 plants are found in it.

There are still many significant deficiencies in the bill that require further address or amendments. Even many recommendations of the subcommittee have not been addressed in the legislation. I was a member of that committee and it was a Liberal dominated committee.

There are maybe 10 points I want to mention. The relevant elements of existing legislation, resources, investigative and prosecutorial practices, should be deployed to their fullest potential and effective strategy to fill any gaps should have been developed and addressed in the legislation. The committee was concerned about it and it made very clear recommendations about it.

The criminal code should have been amended so that all its provisions related to organized crime activities could have been brought together in a specific part to be entitled enterprise crime, designated drug offences, criminal organizations and money laundering. This recommendation was not followed.

The criminal code should have been amended to allow for the designation of criminal organization offenders in a manner similar to that applicable of dangerous offenders and long term offenders provided for at section 752. This would allow, at the sentencing stage, after a conviction has been obtained, for the imposition of imprisonment for an intermediate period or for long term supervision in the community after a sentence of up to 10 years. The recommendation was not followed.

Section 184 and following the criminal code dealing with judicially authorized audio and video surveillance should have been amended to increase in non-criminal organization offences from 60 days to at least a 120 day period for which such activities could be authorized and renewed. This particular recommendation is very important if the Liberals were to listen to Canadians, to the Canadian Police Association and to front line police officers who are dealing with organized criminals. When police officers need to obtain a particular warrant they have to write about a thousand pages. A lot of work has to be done to obtain a warrant.

Once a warrant has been obtained it is valid for only 60 days, whereas the criminal activity continues for months and years probably. They then have to go back and do all the paper work again in order to obtain a warrant for wiretapping or other things. The recommendation is very important and I hope the justice minister will follow through with it. Since we are debating the bill for the first time, the government has lots of opportunity if it is sincerely listening to this.

The provisions of part VI of the criminal code should have been reviewed and amended so as to streamline and simplify the requirements and practices involved in the judicial approval and renewal of audio and video surveillance as a law enforcement investigative strategy. This recommendation was not followed.

Section 743.6(1.1) of the criminal code should have been amended to allow sentencing judges to order that offenders serve full sentences instead of half the sentences currently served, of incarceration without any form of conditional release in cases where there is evidence that a convicted person committed an offence to the benefit of, at the direction of or in association with a criminal organization.

The criminal code should have been amended so that there was a reverse onus placed on a person convicted of an enterprise crime, a designated substance offence, a criminal organization offence or money laundering whose assets have been seized, to prove that these assets have not been acquired or increased in value as the result of criminal activity. There should be a reverse onus on the criminal rather than on law enforcement agencies to prove that. This is a very important recommendation.

If the convicted person were unable to discharge the burden of proof, as I mentioned, to the satisfaction of the court, these assets should be declared to be forfeited. This recommendation was not followed through.

The Canada Evidence Act should have been amended to codify and simplify the rules related to disclosure. The disclosure rules are so vague that jurisdictions in foreign countries refuse to co-operate with Canadian law enforcement agencies because of our stupid and ineffective disclosure laws.

The human resources expertise and technology levels should be sufficient to effectively combat organized crime. Unfortunately the funding announced by the justice minister today providing only $200 million over five years does not appear adequate and does not come close to the amount needed for frontline law enforcement officials to do their job effectively.

The funds allocated on a yearly basis would not significantly enhance police or prosecution resources when we consider that a relatively simple prosecution could cost as much as $10 million. Those resources are inadequate.

A national tactical co-ordinating committee should have been established to promote the exchange of information and sharing of experiences among field operators in order to fight organized crime. This recommendation made by the subcommittee on organized crime was not followed through again.

Because of lenient disclosure laws in Canada, as I mentioned earlier, law enforcement agencies from other countries refuse to share sensitive information with their Canadian counterparts on organized criminals operating in their country. This jeopardizes our efforts to combat crime and demoralizes our frontline officers.

One of the most disturbing features of the legislation is its failure to make it a criminal offence to be a member of a group already proven to be a criminal organization in Canada. Contrary to the justice minister's suggestions, this provision does not make participation or membership in a criminal organization illegal unless it can be proven that the person had the intention to facilitate illegal transactions for that organization.

The fact that an organization is a criminal organization would have to be proven in each particular case that goes before the court resulting in needless duplication of resources, expertise and prolonged criminal trials.

The bill fails to adequately protect other key players in the fight against crime. In particular, provincial justice ministers, MLAs, MNAs, MPPs are not granted the same level of protection as federal parliamentarians, despite the fact that they are directly responsible for the enforcement of these provisions. They need to implement the law.

We all know the case of Michel Auger who had the courage to stand up against crime and other journalists who were not given protection.

In conclusion, I urge the government to make the legislation tougher, to provide more resources to police and to encourage the aggressive use of the new tools.

In particular, the recommendations of the subcommittee, regarding forfeitures, wire tapping and serving full sentences, have not been addressed or have only been partially met. Therefore, I hope the justice minister will be open to considering amendments that would further streamline the Canadian justice system and would offer Canadians a greater measure of security through the legislation.