John Reynolds

[Supply, February 6th, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, the minister's speech was interesting as it outlined the government's position, but it did not answer the question of the day. Will his government give us a vote when the government makes a decision whether to go to war or not?

[Supply, February 6th, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, we were all elected by the public but the government was elected with a majority which gives it the right to make decisions, but it should be listening to Canadians.

The debate we are having in the House today and the take note debate we had last week allows Canadians to make up their minds. Colin Powell's statement on television yesterday allows people to know more of what is happening with the United States and its dealings with the United Nations.

I definitely have respect for the fact that the government was elected with a majority, has a majority in the House and has the right to make decisions for Canada, but I also feel very strongly that every member of the House has a right to speak on it and have a vote on it, and that is what this issue is about.

Whether we are in favour of going to war when the time comes to make that decision, we should all have a say in the House. If the opposition and enough Liberals were opposed to it and it were defeated then so would the government be defeated.

If the member is wondering how quick we could be in an election, this would be a matter of confidence in the government making a major decision. This is where it takes the courage of a leader to tell us what needs to be done and for his members to support that and vote for it. If they do not, then he has a problem.

[Supply, February 6th, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, in reply to the former leader of the New Democratic Party, yes, we do not agree on many things but we both agree on democracy and that there should be votes on major issues in the House.

I do not mind saying that I think George Bush is a good president, unlike the NDP who do not like him at all. My party also fully supports the resolution of the United Nations.

The motion does say on “the first sitting day”. However, after discussions with our colleagues from the Bloc Quebecois, they will be moving an amendment, with our permission, to replace the words “first sitting day” with “the first day”. This would give the Speaker time to recall the House if the House were not sitting.

I think the Bloc position, which is probably the exact opposite to ours and opposite to how we might vote in the House, is a good example of how all of us together believe in democracy and believe in having a vote in the House. We will work together to make sure we get that.

With regard to the fact that it might be after the fact and that the government should know our positions, we are having this debate today and we have had take note debates in which the government has had the opportunity to know the positions of all members of Parliament.

However, governments do have the right to make decisions. They are the executive. When the government makes a decision, we think we have the right to have a vote on it.

Also, hypothetical motions cannot be moved in the House. If we were to try to move a hypothetical motion it would be ruled out of order by the Speaker. In talking to all of the parliamentary experts, such as the clerks and our people who are experts in this, the motion we have brought forward today is proper.

Governments do have a right to make decisions, we grant them that right. They were elected by the majority of Canadians. However governments are not doing a good job if they do not allow the House to have votes on the decisions they make.

[Supply, February 6th, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is absolutely right. The government has been asked this question. The government House leader has been standing up day after day quoting all the wars we did not have a vote on, but there has been a vote in this country on all the major wars. This is a major war we are talking about, if it happens.

It is hypocrisy while in opposition to demand votes on this same issue and even in the same area. The government House leader and the Prime Minister, when in opposition, demanded that the Mulroney government have votes and they were given a vote.

The former minister of finance when travelling the country since he was fired or quit cabinet, whatever the story is, to run for his leadership bid to become prime minister, has been talking about democratic deficits in Parliament. He has been saying that even private members' business should have votes, on which we agree with him. In fact most of the democratic deficit he talks about comes right out of our books that we gave to Parliament on the changes we think should take place.

We want to know where he is going to be on this issue. We know from other votes we have held in the House, like the election of chairs of committees, that if his group decides to support something, it usually means the vote will pass. I am sure if he wants to be prime minister he will show Canadians right now the leadership he will bring by saying, “Yes, my members will vote to have a vote”. I find it astounding that the government would not allow a vote.

I find it outstanding that the government would not believe that also, but maybe I will give the Minister of Foreign Affairs a standing ovation if, during his speech, he says that he will make sure that we have a vote before Canada goes to war. I am hoping he will say that so we can stand up and give him that ovation, but I am concerned that I do not see him waving at me, smiling and saying he will do it.

[Supply, February 6th, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Bloc Quebecois for agreeing to support this motion.

Let me begin with a little history about what might be called the Shawinigan-Iraqi two-step, where the dancer must wear flip-flops.

I want to go back to 1991 to remarks by the little sparrow from Shawinigan. On January 12, 1991, The Toronto Star quoted the opposition leader as saying:

Mulroney has committed our troops because he likes to be friends with George Bush...I don't want to be friends with George Bush.

Then on January 15 The Globe and Mail quoted him as saying:

The reality is that we're debating war tomorrow and our answer is no.

In Hansard, January 15, 1991, the sparrow turned dove when he said:

If faced with an act of war, we say on this side of the House that it is premature and that our troops should not be involved in a war at this moment and our troops should be called back if there is a war.

In that same Hansard, another statement he made was this one:

We say that this is not the time for war and there are other means such as sanctions, embargoes and diplomacy.

On January 23, 1991, the dove turned into a hawk and was quoted in The Toronto Star as saying:

In order to get Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait, you have to crush him.

When there was renewed tension in the gulf in 1998, the hawk turned eagle and was quoted in The Vancouver Sun of December 17, 1998, as saying:

We support the bombing. Saddam Hussein got what he should have expected to get.

From sparrow to dove to hawk to eagle, and back to a sparrow, is the evolution of the fine-feathered little bird from Shawinigan.

The motion today is as much about parliamentary reform as it is about whether action may be taken by Canada regarding Iraq. The motion calls for what Liberals demanded in 1991: that debates and votes on crucial issues take place in the people's Parliament.

I say to members opposite that real leaders are not afraid to make decisions and to put those decisions before the House for consideration. Real leaders do not fear the possibility that some of those who sit behind them in the House might have differing views.

We should look to Great Britain and the mother of parliaments. A real leader there assured that house that before any final decision is taken, the matter will be debated and voted in that parliament. That is real leadership, and real leadership is what we are lacking on the other side of the House. The last time the present Prime Minister showed any concern for democracy, or consistency in expressing his concern, was when he was the opposition leader.

Questions of war should never be taken lightly. Nor should careless and ideological accusations be hurled at other national leaders. Nobody in the responsible international community lusts for war, as the New Democrats would say. The New Democrats can position themselves all they want with their diminished constituency, but to make such cruel statements and attribute such motives to the President of the United States or the Labour Party Prime Minister of Great Britain is simply wrong and reckless. To make such accusations is cheap political posturing whether it comes from those on the far left or from the remote reaches of the government's backbenches. Then again, vacuums are created when real leadership is lacking.

Real leaders do not stumble into war. They take a position and subject it to debate and a vote in the nation's supreme law making body, this Parliament. When tyrants, despots, mass murderers and brutal dictators like Saddam Hussein threaten world stability, responsible nations must brace for war. When individuals such as Saddam Hussein give support and succour to international terrorists or field their own teams of terrorists, responsible nations must brace for war.

The fundamental failure of the Liberal government is the Prime Minister's refusal to make clear whether Canada will participate in any possible action against Saddam Hussein. Canadians do not know if the Liberal government will participate only if the United Nations Security Council approves action or if the government will participate in concert with our allies, the United States, Great Britain, Australia and many others. Canadians deserve to know.

These are not easy or simple questions deserving easy or simple answers. They are very serious and should be debated fully in the people's Parliament and decided by a vote of all hon. members in the House.

Let me stress that such serious decisions should be accompanied by a debate and a vote in the House of Commons, but a motion to participate in any action in Iraq should be brought before the House by the government to enable a debate. In other words, real leadership should be demonstrated by the government and the way to demonstrate that is to support the motion that is before the House today.

A take note debate is not a substitute because it does not allow for a vote. A take note debate is really a pat on the head for Liberal backbenchers. Tragically, the Prime Minister and the Liberal government avoid responsibilities of governing so it falls to the opposition to do the right thing with the motion today.

The purpose of the motion is to ensure that when a decision is made with regard to Iraq the matter will be brought before the House for a debate and a vote. Let me go back to January 17, 1991 to see what the current government House leader had to say about Canada's role in the gulf war.

First he criticized the government for not recalling the House sooner for debate on the actions Canada would take against Iraq following the invasion of Kuwait. Later in the same speech, he said he had a right, and his constituents had a right, to have a fundamental question posed and that all members had the right to speak to the question. The hypocrisy is breathtaking. The current government House leader does not want the debate today that he wanted 12 years ago. What made him change? Is it that Liberal arrogance getting into the government? In opposition he wanted the debate. He wanted a vote, but not today.

When he sat on this side, he demanded that every member of the House be given an opportunity to speak to and vote on the issue. So it falls to the official opposition, with the support of other opposition parties, to try to bring a little democracy to this place by giving hon. members the opportunity to speak to and vote on this issue.

On January 17, 1991 the current government House leader, the great defender of democracy, a standard bearer for political hypocrisy, argued that the government should have put a motion with a point blank question on the gulf war at that time. He said the question should have been, “do we or do we not as a country want to participate in these hostilities when they begin or if they do begin?” He argued that a very specific question be put to the House.

What we want today is what the government House leader wanted then. We want to vote today for a vote later when the government finally shows some leadership and makes a decision.

Just to make it clear that he was not the only one involved in that debate, the member for LaSalle—Émard, the former finance minister, was dancing as only he can dance and wringing his hands. He asked the Prime Minister for assurances that our safety here at home would not be jeopardized.

We wonder where the great parliamentary reformer is today and what he will do on this democratic question that he talks about across Canada, democracy in the House of Commons. Is he prepared to support the notion that Parliament is too important to be ignored by the Prime Minister?

I hope my friends in the media will ask him where he stands on the idea that Parliament should debate this important question and then have a vote on it. They might also ask him how it feels to be straddling a sharp political picket fence while standing on icy and shaky ground.

Back then when the government was in opposition, it was important to the Liberals that all Canadians know precisely where all parties and all individual members of Parliament stood. Today it is important to the Liberals that Canadians do not know where they stand until all the lights are on and the corner in which they are hiding is illuminated.

The question must be asked, why was it good for Canada 12 years ago when the Liberals were in opposition but it is not good for Canada today? Why should the House have had a clear question put to it 12 years ago but should not have a clear question put today?

Canadians can only wonder because the Liberal government is not about to enlighten them. All the responsible nations in the international community must believe today that United Nations action is just and urgent. All the democratic governments of the international community have made certain that all sides in their various legislative assemblies have had an opportunity to express their opinions.

There is no reason for Canada to continue waffling, and ducking and dodging on whether we will support our allies. This is not what Canadians want or what they deserve. There is no reason other than the fear of the Prime Minister to deny the House its democratic right to a free and open debate followed by a vote. His fear, indecisiveness and contempt for Parliament and his own Liberal members does an injustice to both Parliament and to all of its members.

It would seem to most reasonable people that the clarity of UN resolution 1441 does not require an additional resolution. It may well be for other reasons, however, that an additional resolution will be necessary but that is mere housekeeping. The real question is whether the Liberal government is prepared to concede to Parliament its hard-won democratic right to debate and vote on questions of great national concern.

The next question is whether the House will concur in the decision by the government regarding Canada's involvement in military action to disarm Saddam Hussein. History does repeat.

In December 1990 the Liberals were demanding that Prime Minister Mulroney recall the House to debate Canada's participation in the Persian Gulf action. Their leader, the current Prime Minister, was explicit and said that the real question should be whether we should participate in the war, yes or no, and have a vote. He expressed admiration for the United States where politicians were given the chance to vote on almost exactly that same question. What a change. He wanted a vote in opposition, but as Prime Minister he does not trust his own backbench.

The prime minister back then, Brian Mulroney, had more respect for democracy and Parliament than does the current Prime Minister. Prime Minister Mulroney promised that if it came to war, he would go to the House of Commons, explain it and examine with hon. members certain alternatives for Canada.

The problem here is that Liberals under the Prime Minister, in or out of government, have never been open and honest with the Canadian people. They were not open and honest with Canadians in the 1991 conflict. They are not being open and honest with Canadians today about what actions, if any, will be taken by Canada.

Our international reputation is suffering because of the indecisiveness of the Liberals. Caution can be a virtue but indecisiveness is a weakness. We see, and Canadians recognize, that weak leaders and weak governments fear democracy. Never has a government in Canada feared Parliament like the Liberal government does.

Let me conclude with remarks made by my leader last October:

Canadians rightfully and sensibly do not seek war for war's sake. Canadians do not want to see war waged on the basis of propaganda. Canadians do want to see Canada's national security interests and long held values in international diplomacy upheld. The position taken by the Canadian Alliance in its role as official opposition conforms to all three of these conditions.

Our motion seeks to compensate for the Liberal government's lack of resolve and refusal to be clear and straightforward with Canadians. I would urge all members of the House to give our motion thoughtful consideration. It is intended to do what the Liberals demanded in 1991, that is, to allow Canadians to speak to this issue through their representatives in their Parliament. It simply states that when the government commits our troops, a debate will be held in Parliament and members will be called upon to either support or not support the government's decision. This is what democracy is all about.

The government has talked in its throne speech about openness, democracy and the modernization of Parliament. Certainly there is not one Canadian outside the House that does not think that their members of Parliament should be voting on whether this country goes to war. I would urge all those Liberals, and the minister who I understand is going to speak in this debate, to assure the House today that they will support this motion and make sure that Canadians will have a better respect for democracy than what they are getting so far.

I am sure the former finance minister, who has been making speeches on democracy all across Canada, telling everyone that when he is the prime minister there will be more democracy in the House, will be talking to his people. When he was in opposition, like the Prime Minister, he demanded a vote on whether or not we went to war. If his people support this motion with the opposition, it will pass.

Hopefully it will not come to that. I hope that next Tuesday at 3:00, the 301 members of this House will vote for democracy and make sure there is a vote before Canada goes to war.

[Supply, February 6th, 2003]

seconded by the hon. member for Châteauguay moved:

That, the first sitting day following a decision by the government to involve Canada in any military action to disarm Saddam Hussein, a motion, “That this House concur in the decision by the government regarding Canada's involvement in military action to disarm Saddam Hussein”, shall be deemed moved and seconded at the call of Government Orders and that any dilatory or other motion, including motions during Routine Proceedings, with the exception of requests for unanimous consent, shall not be receivable by the Chair; and that, in relation to the motion to concur in the decision by the government, at fifteen minutes before the expiry of the time provided for government business on that day, any proceedings before the House shall be interrupted, if required for the purpose of this Order, and in turn every question necessary for the disposal of said motion shall be put forthwith and successively without further debate or amendment.”.

[Point of Order, February 6th, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, I was just talking to the government House leader. I just learned about this a short while ago. I certainly agree with the House leader that this is a process that has happened for a long time and it should be respected.

The member involved is not here today. It is still a little early on the west coast but I am doing my best to reach that member. I am sure he will want to apologize to the minister if in fact this is what happened.

[Question No. 77, February 4th, 2003]

For the fiscal years 1993/94, 1994/95, 1995/96, 1996/97, 1997/98, 1998/99, 1999/2000 and 2000/2001, from all departments and agencies of the government, including crown corporations and quasi/non-governmental agencies funded by the government, and not including research and student-related grants and loans, what is the list of grants, loans, contributions and contracts awarded in the constituency of LaSalle—Émard, including the name and address of the recipient, whether or not it was competitively awarded, the date, the amount and the type of funding, and if repayable, whether or not it has been repaid?

(Return tabled.)

[Goods and Services Tax, January 31st, 2003]

When?

[Goods and Services Tax, January 31st, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, on December 12 in the Speaker's ruling, the Speaker criticized the minister's department for the way it reported GST fraud to Parliament because it changed the rules on how it. It is no longer transparent, and the Speaker said that it should change those rules.

I would ask the parliamentary secretary this. When will the government change the rules so that GST fraud is transparent, so that not only does Parliament know what is taking place but also all Canadians?