Bev Desjarlais

[Supply, February 24th, 2004]

Madam Speaker, no one is suggesting that if people do not know that a company is doing something, they should be responsible for investing in them.

What about the companies that we do know are creating those situations, that we do know are not adhering to labour standards, and that we do know are doing wrong to the environment? That is what we are saying.

We are not saying just anybody; it just cannot be done. There is documented evidence. There are groups all over the world that conduct investigations and get the information that way. The proof is there. That is why we have had situations such as Talisman oil and its investments, which ended up having to readjust the way it was doing business. It was recognized that it was investing in what ended up being a sort of rebel activity and in stuff that was not good in that country.

If people do not know, no one is suggesting they should not invest, but if they do know that tobacco companies are targeting young people, children, by selling tobacco in third world countries--and that information is coming out now--if people do know that a company is using five year olds and six year olds to make toys and rugs, we should not allow those companies to be invested in. That is what we are saying. We are not suggesting that no one can invest anywhere. But if the information is there, we should not be investing in those companies.

[Supply, February 24th, 2004]

My colleague may not like the response, but there is a reality. He said that what we should judge it on is whether it is illegal or legal in Canada. I can tell the House that we have a treaty. Canada has signed a landmine treaty to abolish landmines and not to support the building of landmines. The CPP pension fund is invested in companies that make landmines. That is not acceptable. What if the CPP board decides to invest in a company that produces pornography which uses children and which is okay in some other country but not in Canada?

There are standards set out by the ILO on labour conditions throughout the world. There are human rights issues. What if the CPP pension plan is invested in those companies when worldwide it is not seen as acceptable?

We know that human rights conditions in Indonesia and China and situations in Africa and numerous other countries are not acceptable. Is it okay that the pension funds are invested in those companies? Does the member think it is okay for Canada to be investing in countries that wipe out citizens so that they can get to the diamond mines? Does the member think it is okay to invest in companies that go into and literally rape a country's environment? Is it okay for the member that Canada pension funds should be invested in those activities?

[Supply, February 24th, 2004]

Madam Speaker, there is no intention on my behalf or on the behalf of the New Democratic Party to mislead Canadians or to misrepresent. There is documented evidence that ethical funds do provide profit.

This morning my colleague from Winnipeg Centre mentioned a number. The investment sector does not recommend that investments be based on a one year or two year period. Even those who are not all out investors get that much of a message from the investment companies. Investments should be based over a longer period of time. There are companies that over the course of 10 years do not show a 10% profit but do show a 1% profit. I think the member needs to be clear for Canadians that in the last number of years a lot of funds have lost money. I think it would be misleading to suggest that only ethical funds may have lost money over a couple of years, because that has happened overall.

Quite frankly, the investments of the CPP pension plan board lost $2 billion for the CPP fund. I cannot imagine that the ethical funds would have done any worse.

What we believe should be happening and what we suggest as part of the CPP fund is investment in Canada. We are not suggesting a loss or that we not try to support the program. Obviously we care very dearly about the Canada pension plan. We fought for the Canada pension plan. We know it is probably the best plan in the world and will make a contribution to the most people throughout the country.

We are not going to want to see it devastated, but we know that an investment in Canada using CPP funds will mean dollars coming back in. That is an investment in Canada. Quite frankly, as someone who pays into CPP, it does mean more to me that it goes to something ethical. I do not want my funds going into tobacco companies and landmines. I do not want them going into environmental degradation. The cost of repairing those things is far greater and it is far more important that it not happen.

I think Canadian values are along the lines that I believe, not what I am hearing here today, which is that money should be the only option, that we are just going to look at how much money that one little sector makes and not look at the consequences. That is not acceptable in this day and age.

It is not acceptable.

[Poplar River First Nation, February 24th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, for years the federal Liberal government has failed to respond to the housing shortages and poor housing conditions in first nations communities. The issues include mould, which is creating health problems, poor ventilation, and building houses to a standard not acceptable in white communities.

Now the worst case scenario has come to light. Houses in some communities were insulated with loose asbestos. One family from Poplar River First Nation has lost three members to mesotheliomal cancer, a cancer directly related to asbestos exposure.

INAC and Health Canada failed to notify the first nation that asbestos exposure can cause death. The family is searching for answers. The first nation needs and deserves assistance.

INAC and Health Canada are not likely to criticize each other. An independent study must be done. The first nation has limited resources. Funds for an independent study and the removal of asbestos should not come from the first nation's regular budget.

It is not okay for the Liberal government to stonewall the family and the community. They deserved an immediate response and they got delays and the death of another loved one. How many more members of Poplar River First Nation must die before immediate, thorough action is taken?

[Supply, February 24th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know, but maybe grey matter does not work the same way in people.

I was in Chile as well. When I was there, people asked us about our public pension plan because their plan was not working. Money was being invested through private companies and those companies made the money. There was not enough money to provide pension plans for Chilean workers.

Who should Canadians believe? Should they believe the Conservatives, Alliance, Reformers who have had their heads in the sand and will not accept that an investment into Canadian infrastructure and Canadian municipalities is a sound investment that can be profitable and support a pension plan and that an investment into values, principles and companies is a sound investment? The Alliance, Reform, Conservatives, for the life of them, cannot accept the public working together to support the public and their fellow Canadians, and it is something that is wrong. I leave it to Canadians.

[Supply, February 24th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, there is no question that we would not fit under those types of guidelines, because we do believe that values and ethics count.

For the record, the Conservative member may not realize this. I was not talking just about Canada, because our pension plan invests outside of Canada. He may not have realized that. It does possibly invest in companies that would use four year olds. It does possibly do that and, quite frankly, there is nothing to stop it from doing that. Under his way of doing things, there should not be.

I use this as an analogy. Let us say that Canada has a law against cloning. However, our pension plan funds can then be invested in firms that are cloning somewhere else. What kinds of values or principles are those? Those are the values of the Conservative Party. They were the values of the Alliance Party. They were the values of the Reform Party. And it is time things changed, because they are not the values of Canadians.

[Supply, February 24th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, we see today why we have two opposing views and two different parties representing different values within the House of Commons. I will comment specifically on what my colleague from the Conservative Party said. Actually, I am really pleased that there is such a difference between our views on things.

He says it is important that we deal with the ethical issues of what the government is doing because of the unethical things it is doing, but if we are going to make a buck it is okay to take Canada pension dollars and invest in unethical practices. Let us take, for example, one of the companies that is being accused or that we are pretty sure received some dollars in an underhanded manner from the taxpayers of Canada. Does he think it is okay that pension fund dollars should then be invested in those companies? How ethical is that? Maybe that is what his principles and values are built on. Mine are a whole lot stronger.

He suggested that it is wrong to believe in investing in ethical funds. I would suggest that if we put this to a vote of Canadians, they would tell him wholeheartedly that they do not want to be part of that, that they do not invest in companies that use four year olds to make rugs. That is reality. This is not something the NDP has made up.

International labour groups around the world have specific guidelines that they work with. If the Conservatives could get their heads out of the sand and stop wanting profit at any cost, they could look at ways that we believe should happen where one can get the profit. We are not suggesting not making dollars off the pension plans. We just think there are better ways of doing it than ripping off young children, than ripping off women and children in the world who are abused and used just because of who they are, so that we have some values. I would suggest--

[Supply, February 24th, 2004]

If they're employing four year olds.

[Supply, February 24th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, in response to that reply from my colleague, I would then ask, why is it that the Canada pension plan is investing in companies that make landmines when Canada is a signatory to the treaty getting rid of landmines?

Are we somehow accepting the fact that we will give those companies money, but they will not use that money for landmines, that they will just make fighter jets or tanks or whatever with that money, and they will use our money for something else? That is not okay.

The rules state that we should not be investing in those companies. Our being a signatory to the treaty for the abolition of landmines is legal. If we accept that as law, why has the government not ensured that the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board is doing that? We know it should not be doing it. Why is it doing it?

Furthermore, should we feel ashamed that our Canada pension plan funds cannot be invested in certain things? I do not think there is anything wrong with that. I do not think we should be ashamed that we will not invest funds in tobacco companies that will go to third world countries and encourage four-year-old kids to smoke, because that is what is happening.

There is proof of those things happening now. Those companies rooked-in Canadians and Americans for years by not telling them they were increasing nicotine rates so people would become addicted. They are doing the same thing. We should be able to say that there will be no investment in tobacco for the purpose of smoking because it is not beneficial to the welfare of humankind.

[Supply, February 24th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I acknowledge my colleague's comments about the Canada pension plan. I do not think there is any question that it is an excellent pension plan. It evolved over the course of the social movement over the years, wanting to ensure that Canadians had some pension benefits. We do get great acclaim throughout the world on our pension plan.

There are some criticisms of course. What has happened is there have been restrictions on pension benefits that go to individuals. I think most of us would like to see that when there are extra dollars in a pension plan, benefits would be expanded instead of restricted, making it somewhat impossible sometimes for people who may access those pension plans.

The specific motion talks about the ethical investment of funds. I know the phrase ethical investments might be a tough phrase for some on the other side to get their heads around, but certainly not for my colleague. The bottom line is I think Canadians actually support ethical investments. They are not totally open to this belief that it should be this open freedom of making money at any cost with the pension funds. I think Canadians have more credibility, values and principles than that.

When she talked about members of the board of the Canada pension plan investment fund, I noticed she did not mention principles or values or the fact that they would take those things into consideration. Therefore, it was just going to be done on the basis of making money at any cost. I do not think that is acceptable to Canadians. That is why we brought this motion forward. We want to see a change. We in the NDP consider the investment in Canada, in Canadian municipalities and cities.

Infrastructure within Canada is a very ethical investment and it will be cost effective. We are not saying give the money away. We are saying allow municipalities and cities to access those funds as investments, the same way private companies can access those funds and use them as investments into their companies. They can pay it back with interest. We are not talking about investment in municipal bonds as such. We are talking about an investment in Canada, and that is what we would like to see.

I would like the member's comments as to whether she thinks the investment of Canada pension funds into Canadian communities is a good investment.