Peter Adams

[Petitions, December 15th, 1994]

Madam Speaker, I have a petition which was collected and prepared by students of St. Anne's School in Peterborough. It reads:

"We the undersigned citizens and children of the province of Ontario draw the attention of the House of Commons and the Minister of Justice to the following: That criminals do not fear the law as much as we the citizens and children fear for our safety because of recent crime involving guns. We wish that the federal government enact more severe penalties for the perpetrators of crimes involving the use of firearms. We believe in crime control as well as gun control".

[Violence Against Women, December 6th, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, I just returned from a ceremony at the National Research Council of Canada to remember the young women who were murdered at l'École polytechnique de Montréal five years ago.

This ceremony was particularly moving because these young women were in the forefront of women in science and technology. They were students at one of our leading national establishments of science and technology, l'École polytechnique de Montréal.

Some of them were co-op students at the National Research Council that was remembering them this lunch hour.

Let us remember the young women of Montreal and work to remove all the barriers faced by young women in the future, especially those women in science, technology and engineering.

[Petitions, December 5th, 1994]

Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36 I have a petition from more than 40 people living in the city and county of Peterborough.

The undersigned consider the present gun control legislation in Canada to be more than adequate. Therefore the petitioners humbly pray and call upon the Parliament of Canada to refrain from any further gun control legislation in the name of controlling crime that would be of no value and would constitute unjust harassment of a lawful gun owners.

[Post-Secondary Education, December 5th, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, I was delighted to see a draft memorandum of understanding between Nunavut Arctic College, which is based in Iqaluit, and Trent University in Peterborough. It provides for the development of mutual accreditation of courses, exchanges of faculty, students and staff and the development of other joint programs.

It also provides for the participation of the Nunavut Implementation Commission, Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated and other bodies in the development of post-secondary education in Nunavut.

Trent has the longest established native studies program in Canada. Many students from the NWT have already studied in that program and other programs at Trent University.

This new agreement formalizes two-way co-operation. I congratulate those involved and look forward to working with the member for Nunatsiaq on projects related to the agreement.

[Yukon Surface Rights Board Act, November 25th, 1994]

What is the percentage of natives in Yukon?

[First Nations Housing, November 23rd, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise and speak on the motion introduced by the hon. member for The Battlefords-Meadow Lake on aboriginal housing.

I begin by thanking the member for bringing this matter before the House. I can assure the House that the government and I share his concerns. I can also assure the House that we intend to address this issue as quickly as possible and in a manner that is socially and fiscally responsible to Canadians.

As the hon. member has made clear, the housing situation in many aboriginal communities has become extremely difficult in recent years. In some communities the qualify of shelter is truly appalling for a nation such as ours. In others the shortage of housing has reached crisis levels. These housing problems affect not only the elders, as was stressed in my colleague's remarks, but all sectors of the population including the rapidly growing proportion of young people.

A clear and decisive plan of action is required to correct these inequities which are contributing to many health and social problems on reserve, again as the member said.

My colleague is also correct in stating that in 1992 the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs recommended a number of very specific actions to address the shortage of adequate shelter in aboriginal communities. However, due to the dissolution of Parliament none of these actions were taken.

The election that followed the dissolution of that Parliament gave Canadians the opportunity to vote for change, for a new approach to issues that face our nation. As we all know, Canadians took advantage of that opportunity in an overwhelming manner.

I am convinced that one of the reasons Canadians elected the Liberal Party to majority government was the sincerity and progressive nature of our policies for aboriginal people. Canadians have long acknowledged that action must be taken on aboriginal issues and the Liberal Party of Canada has the political will to deal with those issues.

The Liberal plan for Canada, the red book, which outlined the Liberal Party's policy initiatives during the election campaign made some very clear commitments to aboriginal people, commitments we have been working hard to fulfil.

For example, we made the commitment to implement the inherent right to self-government, something we are now working on with aboriginal leaders and others. We will achieve this. The advantage is that it moves toward the local control for which the member was arguing. We made a commitment to dismantle the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, a process which has already begun in Manitoba.

That dismantling will leave the local control which the member knows is necessary to deal with this particular problem.

We made a commitment to uphold the honour of the crown by settling land claims through a fair and equitable process. This House has spent a great deal of time and energy over the past year dealing with enabling legislation for a number of land claim agreements. I have spoken in the House in those land claim debates. I have worked in committee on those land claim debates and I was glad to see some of them going through.

The land claims process also leads to the local control which the member knows is necessary to deal with this problem.

Also in the red book we promised to increase support for post-secondary education. Several months ago the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development announced that $20 million would be added to the budget of his department's post-secondary education program bringing the total spending for 1994-95 to over $247 million.

Improved post-secondary education will lead to expertise at the local level which is also necessary to deal with this problem.

I, like the member, have dealt with the Hiawartha First Nation and the Curve Lake First Nation on matters of self-government and education and treaty matters. I am very interested personally in his suggestions.

We also promised to address health issues by giving aboriginal communities the tools and resources necessary to tackle these problems. Toward this end the minister of health recently announced the building healthy communities strategy. This strategy will provide almost almost a quarter billion dollars in additional funding over the next five years to address priority needs in the areas of solvent abuse, mental health, and home care nursing.

The member for The Battlefords-Meadow Lake knows that these matters are related to the problems which he is raising in the House today.

We also made a very clear commitment in the red book to address the housing issue which the member has raised in the House of Commons this evening. This again is something to which we have been devoting a great deal of effort.

Hon. members here must recognize that this is an extremely complex issue, one that requires a range of innovative solutions and the co-operation of many parties. It is not an issue that will be solved by money alone or, for that matter, by the federal government alone.

The red book acknowledges that: "Adequate shelter is a fundamental need of any society and a basic prerequisite for community prosperity". That statement was made in direct reference to the precarious housing situation in many aboriginal communities.

In response to the shelter challenge the red book commits the government to work with aboriginal people to develop an approach to housing that emphasizes community control, which the member has rightly stressed, local resources and flexibility in design and labour requirements, the local approach which the member for The Battlefords-Meadow Lake is arguing for.

I am pleased to inform the House that the government has been doing just that. Both the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and the Minister responsible for the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation have made it very clear that the housing crisis is a personal priority. To fulfil the government's commitment both ministers have directed their officials to work together to develop a new aboriginal housing policy.

Toward that end in the past several months federal officials have been working with the Assembly of First Nations task force on housing along with representatives of the Inuit Tapirisat of Canada, the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, and others to develop a new policy.

Many issues need to be addressed in devising a new aboriginal housing policy, everything from ownership and financing to aboriginal involvement in construction, maintenance and management of the housing.

While aboriginal groups such as the Assembly of First Nations and the Inuit would like to see action taken quickly, they too acknowledge the need to work co-operatively with government and the private sector to develop viable solutions to this serious housing problem. The aboriginal leadership have shown determination and commitment in addressing this difficult issue.

In conclusion, while I commend the hon. member's concern and acknowledge his call for a renewed commitment to aboriginal housing, I think it is clear that the government's commitment has never been stronger.

[Justice, November 23rd, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Solicitor General.

A convicted pedophile who had served his full sentence came to Peterborough recently in a blaze of publicity. This was a shock for the entire community, for those concerned about children and for those who try to help former offenders.

The judicial and penal system has failed in this case. Can the parliamentary secretary inform us of the steps being taken to protect our children from dangerous offenders and improve the penal system?

[Supply, November 22nd, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, as I said the government is in agreement with the need to revise the pension plan. It is still the government's intention to revise the pension plan.

I would say to the member for Elk Island that he and I got the same number of stars in the advertisement that appeared in the Globe and Mail the other day.

I personally believe although I am not an accountant that one of the most serious flaws in the present system is that it is impossible to calculate what the payout will be. Any plan of this

type, any insurance policy has to be based on some mathematical calculation.

One of the reasons for that, and I think the member for Elk Island is aware of this, is the fact that there is no set retirement date. Without a set retirement date it is impossible to say, to calculate, to estimate how long people will collect their pension. This I find disgraceful. It is disgraceful that someone could draw a pension at 25, and we cannot calculate the fact that they will be drawing it for 60 years. That is one point.

My second point is that it is not true that if you are in your pension plan for 27 years you get the same as in this one at six years. In your plan at 27 years your premiums and your employers' premiums, if you are employed, are vested after a certain period of time and you do retain those funds. Then when you reach retirement age if you were not in it for 27 years you would draw the benefits of those vested funds.

I think in this case the period of time which we might debate is simply that, a vesting period. The members who lose an election after six years leave if they are not of retirement age. At retirement age they collect a pension which is based on the vested portion of their pension contributions.

[Supply, November 22nd, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, I do apologize for that. In quoting the St. John's Evening Telegram I should have said the leader of the Reform Party's ``penny pinching Reformers were quickly converted to the spendthrift ways of their fellow Commons denizens once elected. Meanwhile, the rest of the taxpaying public gets stuck with the bill''.

It seems to me that editorial writers are suspicious even of opposition members. This concerns me. This doubt about the interests and purposes of members of Parliament is an important matter for us all. It is something which is very disturbing and which is fundamental to the efficiency of what we do in this House.

I would like to see us move to a pension plan which is fair and equitable, which abolishes double dipping, which sets a clear age at which the pension should be received and which sets an example to other pension plans in the country.

It is my assumption, because it is in the red book, that the Government of Canada is going to do just that.

[Supply, November 22nd, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to join this debate.

I am a new member to this House. I ran on pension reform and have worked toward pension reform since the election. Unlike the member for Swift Current-Maple Creek-Assiniboia I have worked at it since coming here. I have not waited until today to do something about it. I have been in touch with the minister. I have been in touch with my colleagues. As the member for Cumberland-Colchester said earlier this is what we should have been doing during this period of time.

This debate on MPs pensions is very important, as the Reform members say. I am pleased to join it because I am convinced that the government is committed to reform MPs pensions. I for one am determined to see that the government does.

I would like to point out to hon. members and the people following this debate that the opposition motion about replacing the existing pension plan states that we should replace the existing pension plan "with a pension plan that reflects the commitments made in the document entitled "Creating Opportunity", the Liberal plan for Canada".

That is of course the red book. I am glad the Reform Party recognizes the significant contribution the red book has made to the debate on MPs pensions, just as it has made a significant contribution to focusing debate in this Chamber for the last year since the election.

That red book with its list of commitments and with its articulation of the philosophy of this government has provided a tremendous focus for innumerable issues including among them MPs pensions. Within that matter of MPs pensions, it has drawn attention to one thing which I noticed the members opposite are not discussing very much. It has focused public attention on the important question of double dipping.

I would like in the short time that I have available to focus on double dipping. I know that my colleagues from Halifax, Vancouver Quadra, Mississauga South and Vaudreuil have spoken on the matter of the age at which the pension should be received. I am very interested in and would like to talk particularly about double dipping.

Double dipping means simultaneously drawing a pension as a former member of Parliament and a salary from the federal government. It is a practice that has obviously and I would say rightly angered may Canadians. I know it has angered many people in my riding of Peterborough.

Let me remind hon. members of the wording of the red book statement on double dipping. We said: "A Liberal government will reform the pension plan of members of Parliament ending double dipping. MPs should not be able to leave office and receive a pension from the federal government if they accept a new full time paying job with the federal government". I suggest nothing could be clearer than that. This is the commitment that has been repeated by this government since the last election. We will end double dipping.

Some of the members opposite have been talking about timing. I myself have argued from this side that we should have moved earlier on this matter and on the age of receipt of pensions. There has been pressure on this House to do with the economy, to do with stimulating the economy, to do with creating jobs. In that pressure it seems that this matter has been left but I personally hope it is dealt with very soon. I am sure it is going to be dealt with.

Before we go any further, we have heard some of this from the other side, let me say that I do not want to here cast dispersions on former members of Parliament who were entitled under the existing act to receive both pension and another federal salary.

There are many MPs who have served this country well and who are continuing to do good work in other federal positions. Clearly it is time for the rules under which those honest members of Parliament work to be changed.

Mr. Speaker, you may wonder why this situation cropped up in the first place. In the mid-1970s pensions were being viewed increasingly as an earned right. Some people viewed their pensions as deferred compensation. In their view reducing or suspending pensions on gaining another job was similar to retroactively cutting a pensioner's salary.

In 1975 the government of the day decided that the fairest approach would be to allow federal pensioners to draw a pension

and a salary unless they again came under the same pension plan. As an example, a former MP who joined the public service could get a pension and a salary while a former member who was later re-elected to Parliament could not get both the MP's salary and the MP's pension at the same time. The idea was then that a career of a member of Parliament and a career of a public service employee are quite distinct, even though they are both paid by the federal government.

Whatever validity this argument may have, it is clear that Canadians today feel that drawing a pension and a salary at the same time from the public purse is unacceptable. They have strong feelings, as the members have said, about MPs' pensions, including the double dipping issue. I agree with them.

Whatever hon. members may feel about some of the media's comments on pensions, I believe the media at this time is truly indicating the views of most Canadians. Let me give some examples of what the media is saying on this matter. The Ottawa Sun said in a July editorial: "Today politics is a major league profession with major league bucks, whether it's as an MP, a lobbyist, a senator, or a budding patronage appointee. We don't find many former politicians lining up at food banks or unemployment offices, do we?".

There are some people, I suppose, who might challenge those sentiments. I am not one. It is a widespread opinion in this country and double dipping contributes to the negative image of this House and of members in it. I particularly like the mention of lobbyists in that editorial that I just quoted. I do think that lobbyists might well be subject to the same rules as members of Parliament in their pensions and in their remuneration.

The Vancouver Sun said in a March 16 editorial: ``Short of lowering taxes, the federal government could not do more to reverse Canadians' surly mood than to slash the pay, perks and pensions of members of Parliament''.

I am not sure that pension changes could single handedly turn around the surly mood referred to in the editorial. I am convinced that removing the right to double dip would help. The symbolism of a change in MPs' pensions today is enormous, going beyond many of the arguments about what members earn or what they should earn and things of that type. A change in the double dipping provision and other changes will have great impact in Canada and I support them.

From the St. John's Evening Telegram : ``Don't count on many MPs saying no to the pension cash cow. Preston Manning's penny pinching Reformers were quickly converted to the spendthrift ways''-