Dennis Mills

[Criminal Code, April 7th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I begin by congratulating the member for Beauport-Montmorency-Orléans for bringing this forward.

A few weeks ago in the House I sponsored private member's Bill C-353 relating to the whole notion of amending the Criminal Code so that we could develop a set of regulations around Internet casino gambling.

It is no secret to anyone in the House that currently Internet gaming is taking place around the world and is totally unregulated.

The first hour of debate we had on my bill, members of Parliament from the Bloc Quebecois, the Reform and Liberal parties agreed to send the bill to the justice committee for a comprehensive evaluation.

As I listened to the member speak about his bill this morning, he is proposing that we amend the Criminal Code to allow gaming and full casino operations on cruise ships on the St. Lawrence and the Great Lakes. I cannot help but see certain similarities with Bill C-353.

It is important that we in the House and in the country understand why we are becoming interested in this whole area of gaming. The gaming industry is exploding in the world and not just because people now enjoy gaming and the diverse opportunities in the gaming realm. It is also because the tourism sector of the global economy is growing. For many countries tourism is the thing that is actually keeping their economies viable. In the last four to five years members of the House of Commons through their support have encouraged this government to quadruple the advertising budget for tourism Canada. They understand from a public policy point of view the number of jobs linked to tourism.

Tourism today is a very competitive industry. When we think of tourism, it is no longer simply about a couple or a family taking a trip to another part of our country or another part of the world for a holiday. Tourism today is linked in many cases with business. In other words, there are sectors within our economy where large associations are linking their conventions and trade shows and the private enjoyment of those who participate in those conventions as part of the overall package.

For example, the Shriners meet in Las Vegas every year and many other conventions are held there. Various cities and countries encourage these conventions to come to them. There is massive

competition. Convention organizers do not just look at a city for what is offered in terms of hotels, convention centres and trade show capability. They also look at the entertainment factor. They look at live theatre. They look at sports events. They also look at gaming.

In his bill the member for Beauport-Montmorency-Orléans puts particular emphasis on the province of Quebec and does not exclude the Great Lakes. I noticed that in his remarks. He was very specific when he said that allowing this full package of gaming capability on international cruise ships would allow for much more tourism activity in places like Charlevoix, Quebec City, et cetera. When those cruise ships land in those areas the tourists tend to spend a lot of money. They spend a lot in restaurants. Sometimes people are so tired of being on these cruise ships, they like to get off for three or four days. When they come into a community, the spin-off or the multiplier is profound.

I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice that this issue needs a comprehensive approach. I do not disagree with that at all. I also believe that we in this House must grab the moment. We should give this member's bill a chance to have every aspect of the regulatory component looked at. The Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice talked about the notion of background investigations and making sure there is full surveillance and accountability on the parts of all people involved in this. These issues have to be dealt with to ensure the consumer is protected.

I also believe that if an international cruise ship comes within the jurisdiction of our waters, the waters that Canada is responsible for and not just the waters under provincial jurisdiction, there must be some kind of tax. There must be some kind of benefit to the treasury of Canada.

Cruise ship operators would be happy to negotiate some kind of a fee. Even though the gaming and gambling activity is not under the regulatory umbrella, we all know it is going on. There is not a cruise ship in the world on which people are not gaming. They are obviously not gaming in a legal fashion; they are doing it on their own. It is like bookies and under the table gaming.

I have always held the view that legislators are much better positioned to get an overall regulatory framework on the whole realm of gaming. I also believe the Government of Canada has to get back into the business of understanding the gaming realm. If it means that we have to amend the Criminal Code to allow for dice, we should do it.

Let us take a look at our friends in Windsor which has one of the most profitable gaming centres in the country. In the not too distant future they will be facing severe competition in Windsor from the gaming operation in Detroit. Detroit will have dice and Windsor will not. We will expose them. It is another area where we have to take a good hard look at the Criminal Code to make sure that dice is part of the regulatory component.

In 1979 then Prime Minister Joe Clark essentially gave away gaming as a national government responsibility to each of the provinces. We obviously know why they guard it with their lives. It is because the revenues from it are so large. If we were to take away that revenue from the provinces we would find some resistance.

There is an opportunity in the bill sponsored by the member from Beauport to do some good work on the tourism trade. I salute him for his contribution.

[The Budget, March 18th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to compliment the minister on his remarks. The initiative of the national child tax benefit is a great initiative. As Liberals we should be proud that we are once again speaking for those in our community who are most disadvantaged.

We always talk numbers around here in such large, grandiose ways, about the deficit and the debt. We talk in numbers that sometimes the average person on the street does not quite understand. The reality is that we still have a large number of Canadians who are out of work. They are not looking for a debate in the House on whether the deficit is $19 billion or $17 billion. They are looking for some hope and energy so that we can get people going again.

I would like to propose an idea to the minister responsible for putting Canadians back to work. Would the minister consider seeking an all-party consensus that we have an emergency debate so that every single member of Parliament could stand up and in a constructive way put forward thoughts and ideas on how we could get the whole momentum of hope for getting people back to work going again?

It should not be the normal hours. It should be, in the true sense of the word, an emergency debate, perhaps from 10 a.m. until9 p.m., 6 or 7 days a week. We would go until we sort of sensitized the whole country that we are totally obsessed with the idea of getting Canadians back to work.

I watched the minister on television last night when he announced a very specific project in a region of Montreal where he was getting Canadians back to work. The problem is that one announcement like that is not enough to get the whole energy system of the country going.

Would the minister take the initiative, appeal to the Prime Minister that we create a national, bipartisan debate in the House of Commons so that we could come up in a constructive way on how all members of Parliament can put their ideas on the table on how they can get their own communities going?

[The Budget, March 18th, 1997]

Madam Speaker, I would like to speak specifically to that portion of the member's speech which deals with base Chilliwack.

It is an interesting example. We have been listening to Reform members all morning and they keep saying that the government has not cut enough, that the Minister of Finance has not cut enough, and that we must continue to keep focusing on a balanced budget. Yet here we have a concrete example in the member's riding, where

his community has been a victim of this ideological campaign to eliminate the deficit almost overnight.

I am sympathetic to the closing of that base. There are several other examples across the country where this obsession with the deficit has shut down key government instruments, the government presence that has helped build the country.

I listened to the member say that he went to Treasury Board, the very group that did the cutting. He went back after the cutting was done and said: "Can you help us get this thing going again?" He feels that he has been a victim of this deficit thing that is evolving in the House of Commons.

I say to the member respectfully and sincerely, does he not think that this campaign to balance the books virtually overnight should now be halted a bit and we should get back into the business of putting a bit more government intervention into the economy so that we can get our constituents back to work. What would the member say to that?

[The Budget, March 18th, 1997]

Madam Speaker, I listened carefully to the remarks of the member for Simcoe Centre. The notion of comprehensive tax reform is an area on which the House should be engaged in full debate in a very active way.

I am totally opposed to the member's obsession with deficit and debt. We took a position in the House of Commons four years ago that we would get the fiscal framework of the country in order and that if we did so private sector industry would pick up the slack. We would create an environment so that all these people could somehow create jobs. The fact of the matter is that industry has not done that. It has not come to the party.

What does the member believe we have to do in the House to get industry active in the game of job creation?

[Criminal Code, February 13th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I believe you said industry, when in fact it is supposed to be justice.

[Criminal Code, February 13th, 1997]

moved that Bill C-353, an act to amend the Criminal Code (Internet lotteries), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to begin second reading of the debate this evening. I also appreciate the co-operation we have had from all parties. We will hear from speakers this evening from every region of our country. We will hear from members of Parliament who represent not only urban areas but rural areas as well. This debate will take place over an extended period of time and hopefully we will design and develop something that will be useful for all of Canada.

Just to put this bill in context, I would like to go back three years when I began my experience serving as the Parliamentary Secre-

tary to the Minister of Industry. One of the stories that the government has not told well but which is a tremendous story is the fabulous work that was done by the Minister of Industry in the whole area of the information highway.

Members received not too long ago the final report of the Information Highway Advisory Council. It is a model. The work produced through the support of many people from every walk of life and industry right across Canada has proven to be a guideline for not just our Parliament but for provincial legislatures across Canada. The work that was done in this Parliament is also recognized as being world class.

Serving as the parliamentary secretary immersed me into this whole area of the information highway. I still consider myself to be a techno-peasant, but I could not help but feel some of the energy and the enthusiasm that came from the Department of Industry.

I want to read a couple of recommendations that came from that committee work over the last few years. It is Issue No. 8, Information Controls, and recommendation 8.2: "The federal government should take immediate steps to lead in the development of legislative measures with regard to clarifying the question of liability of owners, operators and users of bulletin boards, Internet and Usenet sites-The Government of Canada should take immediate steps to facilitate the development of a model code of ethics and practices reflecting community standards and to provide for community education programs".

The policy debate that we are developing here tonight is very much consistent with the policy framework that has been going on in Parliament for the last few years under the leadership of the Minister of Industry.

How do we get from that report to a bill that talks about amending the Criminal Code to allow Internet casinos? I have to go back to an experience I had last summer. It was August. I decided to take a weekend off. I travelled to the beautiful island of Antigua. I have a friend that has a place down there, Sheikh Amin Al-Dahlawi from Jeddah, a man that I had met a few years ago. While I was relaxing in his beautiful resort in Antigua one evening I attended a presentation from a company in California, World Wide Web Casinos, Mr. Peter Michaels and Mr. Peter Demos.

They gave a presentation to our group on this whole realm of Internet casino gaming which is emerging as a very strong force. We should know that there are many Internet casino companies throughout the world. I sat and watched the demonstration thatMr. Michaels and Mr. Demos put forward and I was absolutely blown away to see how people could actually turn on their lap top or their home based PC, and all of a sudden they could participate in the entertainment of gaming from wherever they were. It was just like being involved in a real casino, just as if you were visiting a land based casino.

I had never seen anything like it. I then proceeded to sell Canada to them. I thought that if this concept was emerging and it was going to be so strong in its business activity, I asked if they would consider putting a land base Internet casino in Canada. They certainly obliged me in the sense that they thought it was interesting that we would consider it. That was the end of the discussion at that time.

On my return to Canada I then called the Library of Parliament. I am sure most members will agree with me that some of the best researchers in the world are working at the Library of Parliament. I asked them what the rule of law was in terms of the possibility of us having an Internet casino system in Canada.

The Library of Parliament did a fabulous study. It took them about two months but they did a fabulous piece of research, which is available to all members of the House and, for that matter, to anyone else who wants to have access to it. They went through the history of how the whole lottery business, which used to be the purview of the national government, was essentially devolved.

We all know that in 1979 Prime Minister Clark began the whole process of devolving lotteries to the provinces. It was ratified in 1985 but the basic rule of law that governs this system is the Criminal Code.

The researchers state: "It is not clear whether or not it is illegal for an individual in Canada to gamble on Internet casinos, but there does not appear to be a provision in the Criminal Code which prohibits this activity. Therefore, it could be argued that the provincial governments presently have the right to conduct and manage Internet casinos. But it should also be noted that no provincial government has attempted to set up an Internet casino and the courts have yet to issue a decision on whether or not such an activity would be permitted by the Criminal Code".

They go on to say that it then becomes a question of whether or not the Parliament of Canada has in its jurisdiction the right to amend that and deal with the whole issue of Internet casinos. When the whole use of the Internet is exploding in front of our very faces, there was never ever any discussion back in 1979 or 1985 whether or not this was going to be a serious issue.

It is important to note that when the researchers from the Library of Parliament did their investigations they said that Parliament, under the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, is free to modify Criminal Code legislation and provide a new scheme with respect to gaming and presumably could give the federal government the right to conduct and manage Internet lotteries.

It was with that and further advice from the Library of Parliament that I then went to the legislative branch of this House and designed Bill C-53. The whole purpose of this bill is to make sure

that this industry, which is exploding in front of our faces, be put under some kind of regulatory authority.

I would like to add a couple of other important facts. Whether one likes or dislikes, agrees or disagrees, with the whole notion of gaming, the fact is that it is a trillion dollar industry. We also know and experts have said that the whole notion of betting in an underground context is now in excess of $60 billion. This is $60 billion worth of gaming through bookies, et cetera, where there is absolutely no sort of monitor or regulation on it at all.

Now we are going to be faced with this whole new realm, Internet gaming. Rather than being reactive to the situation which is evolving we should be proactive. We should go to committee on a bill like this and listen to expert witnesses who will tell us the pros and the cons. They will tell us the rules and regulations that need to be addressed.

Internet gaming is going on right now with companies that do this totally on their own. There are absolutely no background investigations. There is no random process testing. There is no prize payment bonding. There is really no adequate consumer disclosure of game odds or expected value of the win of all games. There is no control of underage gambling. There is no information highway federal tax. I will deal with the notion of government revenue related to this shortly.

Other aspects include truth in advertising, money laundering control, hacker protection and arbitration of disputes. These are some of the issues that really should be discussed. At the end of that discussion legislators can decide how they want to handle this issue.

We have been given a trust in this Parliament not to be reactive but to be proactive. We must lead the way in looking at the realm of Internet gaming. As a G7 country that is highly respected in the whole area of the information highway, this would be an opportunity for us to do some extraordinary groundwork in this area. Ultimately this could lead to treaties with other countries.

Presently over 200 million people sign on the net every day. It was only 20 years ago that there were 50,000 computers in the whole world. Today 50,000 computers a day are sold. As this industry is exploding in front of our very eyes, let us take a leadership role and make sure the proper regulation and control is put into this very important sector of the entertainment economy, Internet gaming.

[Supply, February 13th, 1997]

Andy, did you hear what he just said? He wants to increase the income tax.

[Supply, February 13th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I found it terribly unbalanced on the member's part not to recognize in his speech some of the great efforts that have been put forward by the Government of Canada, specifically in the Vancouver area.

When we think of the entire port infrastructure that has evolved in Vancouver, the Government of Canada has always led the way. I can think of all kinds of infrastructure support. Maybe the one highway he cited did not have quite the use it should have had at the time, but the Government of Canada presence in Vancouver is one of the most dominant of any city in Canada. I am sadly surprised that the member would not recognize that.

[Prisons And Reformatories Act, February 4th, 1997]

That's not what the bill says.

[Prisons And Reformatories Act, February 4th, 1997]

Through you, Mr. Speaker, to the member I want to begin by reading a short sentence from the bill because I think it is important that Canadians understand exactly what this bill does. If they listened to the member for the last few minutes his speech in no way, shape or form reflected anything that was in this bill. He was talking about something that had nothing to do with this bill. This enactment amends the Prisons and Reformatories Act by adding a statement of purpose and principles for temporary absence programs similar to the statement in the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. The enactment also authorizes the provinces to create additional types of temporary absences consistent with purposes and principles.

The enactment extends the period of temporary absences granted for non-medical reasons to a maximum of 60 days and adds the power to renew temporary absences following a reassessment of the case. The amendments authorize the provinces to establish eligibility criteria for temporary absences in order to restrict the concurrent eligibility of prisoners for some types of temporary absences and parole.

Part of this whole program is about rehabilitation. Is the member from the Reform Party saying that he does not believe in rehabilitation? Is the member saying that once you are assigned or put in prison that is the end of you for life? Is this some kind of new treatment the member is trying to design? I am just not clear where the member is coming from.

I wonder if the member could make it quite clear to those of us in the House and state categorically that he does not believe in rehabilitation in any way, shape or form. That was the message I got from his speech.