Jim Silye

[Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, May 4th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I will accept that comment as the cheap shot that it is. We are not at all afraid to work late hours. We have done so often. I will also predict we will be the only ones putting up speakers. The Liberals want us to exhaust all of our speakers. They will not have any speaker on this. They will not have a member rise and speak for 20 minutes on the MP pension. They will not have a member rise and speak on the MP pension tonight for 10 minutes. They are here to exhaust our speakers. They are playing a game.

When the member said he works hard for his constituency, every member of the House works hard for their constituency regardless of their political view point, regardless of where they stand on an issue. I do not think they work hard; they work long. We put in a lot of hours. The people who do the hard work are those who do the research, who dig out the facts, who have to get our messages out through communications.

We are the spokespersons. We have to put in long hours. The cheap shots notwithstanding, the debate on the MP pension plan should be focused on how we can make it better. That is what an opposition party is here for. We are trying to be constructive. We are trying to point out the flaws. We are trying to show where it is weak. They do not have to listen if they do not want to. They do not have to make any changes if they do not want to. It is obvious they do not. However, we are happy to opt out. We are proud to opt out because we know it is the right thing. If they do not opt out they will get voted out.

[Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, May 4th, 1995]

Thank you, coach-I mean, Mr. Speaker.

I want to explain to voters what is happening. The Reform Party wants a proper pension plan commensurate with the private sector, compensation for MPs at a level that the sacrifice is compensated for. The salaries are too low. The pensions are far too great. We should have a balance between the two. That is what we are recommending.

We are trying to debate this fully. We want to see full disclosure on all the items in this pension plan so the Canadian public understands it.

The government today introduced a motion to extend the hours of debate. It wants us to use up all our speakers so it can rush this through to committee so the Canadian public does not

get an opportunity to see what is in it, to understand the full message about the pension plan.

I would not be surprised if in the future as this bill works its way through the system, the Liberals use time allocation on this bill. I will predict the Liberals will use time allocation on Bill C-85, the pension plan bill. That is totally unworthy of government members who pride themselves on parliamentary reform, integrity and restoring integrity to the government like they said they would. It is the lowest of low tricks they can do in a democracy when they are too afraid to let debate on a sensitive issue take its normal, full and natural course.

This is what is happening tonight. We have tried to not lose the opportunity to allow our members to speak to this bill, to point out why they appreciate the opportunity to opt out, why they like the fact they can lead by example and perhaps through this mechanism restore some integrity to this whole fiasco of the gold plated MP pension plan.

We would appreciate if the government would allow proper debate to continue. We would appreciate if the government would stop playing these games with extended hours and if we could go ahead and live our normal day and work it out properly. There is a lot of time if it would follow the normal procedure.

What is the rush? If you had a good bill, Mr. Speaker, would you not be proud to present it before the Canadian public for as long and as often as you could, to get the credit for it if you could? Would you not do that, Mr. Speaker? Would you not be proud and hold your head up high to be able to show the people of Canada what a great pension plan you had introduced? I know I would.

If the Liberals want to rush it through, want to get it through committee, do not want to have the proper amount of time on it and introduce time allocation, that will be the proof they are embarrassed by the little they have done on it. They are embarrassed by how weak their legislation is and that they have not totally and fully used the benefit of all the arguments of all the members of the House.

Therefore I will conclude my comments on the subamendment to Bill C-85.

[Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, May 4th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate those comments. You remind me of my football coach who said that if you have rabbit ears you will never be a success in this business. I believe that should apply in the House as well.

As of today I will no longer have rabbit ears. I will only focus my comments to you and through you to the other side and to the public.

[Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, May 4th, 1995]

Twelve thousand dollars a month and then look after your own pension plan. This is my point of view.

[Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, May 4th, 1995]

I will applaud once the other side understands what double dipping is.

The thing I would like to point out is the Reform Party's criticism of the MP pension. It is three tier, trough regular for all the old MPs, trough light for all the rookies who are too weak and lack the fortitude to stand up to the veterans, and the trough stout, all the extra perks and privileges this pension provides to those cabinet ministers where there is no cap on what they contribute on their extra salary.

This three tier pension plan is unacceptable to the Canadian public we believe simply because it sets a double standard, one for politicians, MPs and senators, and one for the private sector. The reason it is so high is they say the salary is low. I have heard today about the sacrifice of the family, the children and the grandchildren and it is something they build toward. I do not deny those emotional arguments.

On the same emotional basis why not come clean with the Canadian public and simply state the compensation package should be addressed? We should not have three or four different sets of rules. Let us clean it up. Let us pay politicians what we believe they are worth or what they deserve.

[Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, May 4th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to address the subamendment to Bill C-85 which requests that the government report back by June 23 with some improvements to the bill.

I would like to do two things: cover an area that is in the Liberal red book on pensions and talk a little about what is happening here tonight.

In the red book at page 92, the Liberal government says that the pension regime of members of Parliament has been the focus of considerable controversy. That is an understatement. It is now the subject of an independent review which the Liberals support. They believe that reform is necessary. We agree. "Whatever the results of the independent review, a Liberal government will reform the pension plan of members of Parliament to end double dipping".

This is the issue I want to have clarified. I hope when they report back by June 23 it is clarified to the degree that all these accusations from across the floor about double dipping and which members are double dipping will cease and desist.

Today the President of the Treasury Board explained what double dipping was. He said that MPs, people who have been in the House, should not be able to leave this office and receive a pension from the federal government if they accept a new full time paying job from the federal government. In addition, they will review the question of the minimum age at which pensions will begin to be paid.

The government introduced a minimum age of 55, which should be 65. On the issue of double dipping I would like to point out members on the other side like to accuse a certain member on this side, the member for Lethbridge, of double dipping. The member for Lethbridge is elected to this position, not appointed to this position, as former MPs are like Joe Clark, who was appointed to head up some agency is getting an MP pension plus a salary for heading up that agency, a position to which he was not elected.

There is a big difference. Double dipping means you are appointed to an agency or a board and still receive an MP's pension. That will cease and desist. I commend the government for that.

[Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, May 4th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, on a point order, if extended hours have been requested, to what extent will the hours be extended?

[Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, May 4th, 1995]

Madam Speaker, a fair and reasonable pension that is commensurate with the private sector with a salary that is commensurate with the private sector for the workloads inflicted upon these people would attract and would show some good governance, and that is what we have to do.

[Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, May 4th, 1995]

Madam Speaker, I gather the member opposite said he did not understand my logic. I do not understand how that could happen. Let me try to be really clear.

I talked about a double standard. I talked about a method of politicians paying themselves remuneration that is excessive and that is different from what is available in the private sector.

We are no better than the people we serve. We are only one among them who has been asked to serve because we offered to serve. That does not then put us at a higher, loftier level where we deserve twice or three times the benefits, protecting ourselves from the rules of the workplace they have to live with. That is what is wrong with this system.

Nobody deserves a pension for life after six years of service. The government corrected that. That is a heck of a step for this government, and I give it a strong thank you and a strong compliment for doing that. That is recognizing one of the things that is wrong with it. The Liberals deserve credit for listening and I applaud them for it.

However, they introduced 55 as the qualifying age, fully indexed with full payment, when in the private sector it is 65 years of age. If you want to get it prior to 65, you would get a lesser amount. None of that is comparable.

Why is it this way for us in the House? It is all from the old-line politicians; it is not from us rookies. It is not from the Reformers. We came here to clean it up. I am asking the 205 rookies, why the heck are we not standing up instead of letting these cabinet ministers that have been here before push their weight around? We know what is right. Let us do that.

We are ordinary Canadians serving the public. We should get fair compensation, fair remuneration. It is at a senior executive level. Pay us $150,000 a year. We will look after our own pensions. We will have it matched by government. People will accept that. But these two or three triple standards, this trough regular, trough light stuff is getting ridiculous. This is all we are saying.

I am frustrated. I should not have become frustrated, but I am frustrated when I try to make sense, I try to give reason and I want to work with the government so the integrity of all politicians will rise, and they insist on saying: "No, no, no; we deserve it".

It is just like the mileage. Why does an MP deserve 37 cents and the private sector businesses with salesmen get 31 cents for their travel allowance on gasoline? That is ridiculous. It is another example of a double standard.

Why can this government not get it through its head that the Reform Party is only trying to bring some sanity and integrity back into this House? We are on their side, but they will not listen.

[Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, May 4th, 1995]

Now it will all have to be done again.

My point is that now that we have a clear definition of double dipping and we know what double dipping is, maybe the members of the government themselves had better find out what that definition is and stop giving the cheap shots to the hon. member for Lethbridge.