Crucial Fact

  • His favourite word was billion.

Last in Parliament April 1997, as Reform MP for Calgary Centre (Alberta)

Lost his last election, in 2000, with 22% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Borrowing Authority Act, 1995-96 March 2nd, 1995

Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate the member for Guelph-Wellington on her speech and ask her a question.

The question relates to the interest costs to service the debt which the Reform Party believes to be the major problem facing the country, with the deficit a contributing factor. Last year's interest costs are going to be in excess of $40 billion. At the end of two years interest costs are going to rise to over $50 billion.

How does the member for Guelph-Wellington propose to face her constituents and tell them that she will solve the rising interest cost problem by cutting program spending equal to the rise in interest costs? How she will resolve those two sides of the equation that have nothing to do with compassion but have a lot to do with responsible government?

It is totally irresponsible to face your constituents, telling them the deficit is the only problem and by lowering the deficit the problem will be solved. How she will reconcile the rise in interest costs from $40 billion today to $51 billion tomorrow? All the sacrifices to come eventually in her riding will have to be to just service the debt.

Borrowing Authority Act, 1995-96 March 2nd, 1995

Madam Speaker, in the member's answer to his own colleague about the operating budget of the government, he asked that we not look at the interest costs but just look at the operating budget and how the cuts are there.

I acknowledge the cuts in government operations. They are lower. There are some cuts there. However, the member is not recognizing that the interest cost to service the debt is going up faster or as fast as the cuts that are being made. That is why I will repeat the objective is to get to a zero deficit, not to one of $25 billion.

In the member's household budget, whether he has a mortgage now or if he ever had a mortgage, are the interest costs to service the mortgage on his home not a part of his expenses? Does he have a budget which includes his income and his expenses for food and clothing, but the expenses for shelter do not count? Does he keep that aside saying that he can borrow money indefinitely on that? No. A business cannot do it either. The debt servicing costs of a corporation are also included in its costs.

The hon. member should put the interest costs and the operating costs to government together as one. Do not make the same mistakes previous finance ministers have made. Separate the two and try to offer sophistic arguments. Get to the bottom of the overall spending and lower the overall spending so that we get to zero. Does that not make sense?

Borrowing Authority Act, 1995-96 March 2nd, 1995

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the member for Winnipeg North Centre.

When talking about the budget elements in his speech he used words like would, could and should. Those are not good enough in these time. He also pointed out that his government was on track to meet its deficit target of $25 billion at the end of two more years. It is my contention and our contention that this will add to the problem. Our proposal for a deficit target is zero, not $25 billion. We believe that solves the problem. It does not add to it.

Would the member explain why a deficit target of $25 billion is better than a deficit target of zero?

Borrowing Authority Act, 1995-96 March 2nd, 1995

I have a problem with the comment about the tan I have. My wife was rushed off to hospital in sunny California. It was an emergency. That is why I have a tan. I do not appreciate it when members keep referring to that when I am trying to give a serious address on the budget. If they just make jokes about the tan, that is fine. But once they know what it is about I would appreciate a little more respect.

Our taxpayers' budget gives Canadians hope. It shows them a vision and defines a real problem, that of the debt and the interest costs to service that debt. It offers a solution of how to get to a zero deficit so that we can manage the country's finances. We have to get our fiscal house in order so we can start looking at the debt and at ways and means of reducing it. Our children and our grandchildren should not have to continue to carry this heavy, heavy load.

I repeat one more time. Our taxpayer's budget gives the Liberal government an opportunity to adopt that approach, to get to zero within the life of its term. Because if it does not, we will get elected and we will do it.

The debt and the rising interest costs to service that debt is the problem. I have tried to point it out. I have offered solutions. Our party has pointed it out. Our party has offered solutions. Despite all the wisecracks from the finance minister, despite all the rhetoric about how the Reform Party this and the Reform Party that, the Liberals are taking some of our agenda. Why not take all of it? Stop the digging.

Borrowing Authority Act, 1995-96 March 2nd, 1995

Mine and-If you have a personal problem and have to go somewhere, I think it should be respected.

The government is selling a lean, mean government but is increasing its size at a future cost to millions of taxpayers. It is sophistry, clever but misleading.

Despite the hype, the Liberal budget is not a great budget. It does not go deep enough, fast enough or is it compassionate. Liberals have not come clean with the Canadian public. They are trying to retain their popularity and are playing games with numbers.

The budget is merely acceptable compared to what we have seen in the past. It does not stop the digging fast enough. As Alberta treasurer Jim Dinning said the other day about the budget, it is like getting excited over a student that always comes home with Fs on his report card and one day brings home a C minus.

Will we consider the budget as our soft targets? Number one, soft targets. The Liberals are headed in the right direction. They have to make some cuts. They have addressed some cuts, but they have not made enough cuts.

No balanced budget is in sight. That is the target they have to set but will not set. This is why the leader of the Reform Party is going to be the next Prime Minister of Canada. Canadians are going to recognize that is where we should be and that is what will be in the best interest of saving the country.

The Canada social transfer that the government sneaked in is another example of sophistry. It is going to confuse the provinces. The Bloc Quebecois, rightly so, is screaming loudly and justifiably about how it will affect Quebec. The Liberals cannot answer. They will not answer.

The fourth problem is that the fiscal House is just not in order. The combined spending cuts in the budget and revenue increases will amount to $29 billion over the next two years. That sounds great. However, at the end of their term overall spending will have increased even higher than where they started. After four years of Liberal government overall spending will be up by about one-half billion to one billion dollars. Despite the cuts, it is not a balanced budget. Despite the cuts, the debt will grow. Despite the cuts we will be no further ahead as a nation. All that

pain just to pay the interest on the debt. Why can the Liberals not get it through their heads that we have to get to a zero deficit?

I propose that Parliament reject the budget for its failure to eliminate the deficit quickly and decisively within the life of this Parliament by asking further generations to bear the cost of our fiscal responsibilities.

I propose that the finance minister reintroduce a new budget in the fall that reflects Reform's suggestions to balance the budget over a three-year period.

We are continuing the cycle of treading water. Eventually our arms are going to get tired. We are going to sink, sink as fast as the Titanic when we hit the wall. Hit the wall we will if we do not eliminate the deficit. No country can allow its debt to continue to grow as we are in Canada and expect to survive.

That is why we presented our taxpayers' budget, a budget that gives Canadians real hope. It gives the Liberal government a plan to adopt. It shows them the vision Liberals lack.

Borrowing Authority Act, 1995-96 March 2nd, 1995

For instance, the city of Calgary has six MPs. I would cut two out of the city of Calgary. We only need four MPs from the city of Calgary.

Borrowing Authority Act, 1995-96 March 2nd, 1995

We have 27 seats from Alberta.

Borrowing Authority Act, 1995-96 March 2nd, 1995

I will get to that. I will show exactly why the finance minister should retract what he said at some point in the future.

These scare tactics are clever but they are misleading. In our taxpayer's budget Reformers propose that key changes to OAS would include basing the program on family income. Guess what?-that is what the Liberals are going to do as well. We say who it is going to effect. We say at what level it will effect but the Liberals do not have the courage to say what they are going to do on social programs.

In the two-year projections, the money on social programs stays at the same level of $39 billion. The transfers to provinces go down by about $2 billion without any of the tax points going over there, but they do not come clean. That is the problem. It is a budget of broken promises and it is a budget of slight of hand.

Our budget would protect those currently receiving guaranteed income supplements and not paying benefits to high income families. That is what our policy would be on the OAS. This is what the Liberals have suggested in their budget.

Let me now give a definite example. Members have been waiting for me to get to this. I am sure this is the part that is very interesting. They want to know where we get our figures. We get our figures from the government's own numbers. It is a document it produced. It is a book. I think it is coloured. It means this government is good on colours. It has the red book, the grey book, the green book, the mauve book, the white.

This is from "Creating a Healthy Fiscal Climate", page 70, annex table 26, distribution of net federal elderly benefits by household income, 1994.

Eight hundred thousand households receive less than $15,000 in income. The benefits they receive which include the OAS, the spousal portion and the GIS, are $7 billion. That would be untouched by our taxpayers' budget.

Where does the finance minister get his $11,000 figure? The next level up is $15,000 to $20,000 for 390,000 households; $2.6

billion goes there. That is nobody who receives a household income of $20,000. Even if you divide that in two, you are at 11.

Twenty thousand to twenty-five thousand dollars is the next level: 380,000 households, $3 billion goes there. Twenty-five thousand to thirty thousand dollars: 250,000 households; $1.7 billion goes there. Thirty thousand to forty thousand dollars household income: 280,000 households; $1.8 billion goes there.

Even if you took the $40,000 you would end up with $20,000. Where does the finance minister get his $11,000 number? He says if $11,000 is what we would do, I challenge the finance minister if he wants to restore and retain his credibility, because he has said this publicly, to confirm that his numbers are right in this.

If these numbers are right then there is no way that taking $3 billion out of OAS, a $20 billion envelope, and reducing it to $17 billion we going to harm one single senior who makes less than $20,000 in income. Our target is about $40,000.

I insist that if the finance minister catches wind of what I have said here today-I see that the parliamentary secretary to the finance minister is present-we deserve a correction on that. We deserve a clarification.

We are playing with peoples' lives. We do not want to scare people. We want to get to a zero deficit. We want to cut more than the Liberal government. We would cut faster than the Liberal government and you can take all the credit you want about ours being slash and burn, but we know that our projections and the way we want to do it is the right way, it is the correct way, and is the way it should be done.

For the government to accuse wrongly, neither party should do that. Both parties and all members of Parliament should try to be accurate. They have a responsibility to be accurate when they are talking about numbers and how they affect lives. We can disagree on philosophy but we should not disagree on numbers. I think I have said enough on that.

Let us turn to income security for members of Parliament. Has the finance minister made any sacrifices there? The answer is no. Canadians have to sacrifice but not MPs. They are not paid enough so the MP pension makes up for that. The old time politicians will benefit from the original plan to the new two tiered plan that will make millionaires out of many of them while future politicians will be asked to accept the reformed plan.

It is outstanding to sit in this House and listen to the Prime Minister compare his salary with professional hockey players' every time we ask him a question about pensions. Why does he compare his pension with the pension of a hockey player? Why does he not compare his pension to those pensions out there in the private sector?

What we are saying is that the compensation package has an imbalance. The compensation package for MPs is out of whack. The compensation package has to be revisited and the whole thing has to be looked at. The MP gold plated pension plan is too generous. The $64,000 a year is too low. However, this government is too heartless and lacks the courage to address the problem head on. It wants to protect all the old cronies from the past and will not address what should be addressed in the proper fashion.

There is no way that any member of this House should receive any more than matching contributions to what a member puts into a pension plan, one for one. I do not care if it is 5 per cent, 6 per cent or 8 per cent, it should only be one for one.

To boot, the Prime Minister has said he cannot reform the MP pension plan retroactively because there is a rule in democracy that we do not pass retroactive legislation.

Considering the fact the Liberals applied retroactive legislation to the Pearson contract, the EH-101 helicopter contract, the public service contracts and to Canadian taxpayers working overseas, why is it that these same Liberal politicians are not subject to the same rules as those Canadians? How can the Prime Minister contradict himself this way? It is a clever thing to say but it is a misleading point to make when the facts betray what he is saying. It is a double standard. It might be sophistry.

Once again the Liberals are leading the taxpayers to believe that they are actually reforming the system when all they are doing is making it less gold plated for the young MPs but still very generous. I cannot believe the number of rookie Liberal MPs who have been coerced and have just sat there. They are the strongest number in caucus and they sit there and let these veterans push them around. They sit there and are forced to go back to their constituents, most in Ontario, and say sorry, but they had to take this two tiered pension, they cannot sacrifice because the Prime Minister and cabinet will not let them. I cannot believe that.

The rookie Liberal MPs have an opportunity to set an example. The rookies have an opportunity to crack the whip and to show them in caucus what it is all about to be an MP: real integrity, real honesty and real leadership, not the old style partisan, pork barrelled system that has been going on for the last 25 years.

What has changed? We have a Prime Minister who is still going out to $1,000 parties that 99.999 per cent of Canadians are not even invited to. We still make blatant partisan appointments, not the Liberals who deserve to be there but blatant ones that should not be made. The Liberals are still spending $40 billion more a year than they bring in. They fail to recognize the real problem.

The finance minister talks of downsizing and reducing the cost of government when the fact is that in Ottawa Canadians still have a big government and a high spending government. Reformers believe that government governs best that governs least and the best government is smaller government.

Why is it that in the state of California 52 congressmen, 2 senators, 1 governor and 1 president represent at a federal level 29 million people?

Let us say that Canada is pretty close to 29 million people for the sake of argument. We have for the same 29 million people 295 MPs, 104 senators and one Governor General representing the taxpayers. Are we not as competent as congressmen? They can represent 500,000 people while we can only represent 100,000 people? Do we not have the intelligence? Do we not have the technology to have representation by population with a higher population base? I think we can.

Talk about downsizing the public service by 45,000 people over three years. Why do we not downsize the House of Commons? What are we doing instead? We are not going to downsize the House of Commons. While the government lays off 45,000 civil servants it is going to bring in six more MPs. There will be six more MPs in the next federal election.

Once again the Liberals want to increase the size of government. Make it big. Keep the backbenchers happy. Let a small cabinet control things. They refuse to consider more effective approaches to accommodate shifting, growing populations.

Reformers believe the House should have 265 members. Taking into account the floating nature of the population we cannot cap it because of all of the deals that have been made since Confederation. We would then have a reasonable House. We would have members of Parliament that represent more people. We would have members of Parliament that would really have some value and some input into what is going on rather than this huge size. Except for the 20 people that sit around the Prime Minister, the rest of us are just here for window dressing.

We believe the House should be reduced to a fixed number. If the size is continually expanded to match population increases, the House will reach unmanageable proportions with unsustainable overhead costs. The answer to population growth is not to increase the numbers of representatives but to periodically redraw constituency boundaries-redistricting; to redistribute seats according to population shifts-reapportionment; and introduce an elected, effective and equal Senate for regional control.

The time has come to bring back financial responsibility to government, not to make government bigger. Politicians have to be accountable to the people of Canada, to be trusted to handle their money. More faces will not improve the system. I heard a little comment about Alberta?

Borrowing Authority Act, 1995-96 March 2nd, 1995

Madam Speaker, I rise today to not only address the government's borrowing bill, C-73, but to also make a few comments about the budget.

The single biggest problem facing Canada today is the national debt of over $550 billion and the interest costs to service that debt. It is all too easy to think of this debt as a government problem, but it is not. The debt does not cost governments, it costs Canadian taxpayers. We pay for the debt directly every day in interest payments paid from taxes.

Whatever the party or Prime Minister or finance minister, the Government of Canada has not had a single balanced budget in 25 years. As a result, every Parliament has to pass bills like C-73, borrowing bills, to give it the ability to borrow money to service this debt.

For these two decades our governments have been living beyond their means, creating a delusion that we can live indefinitely on borrowed money.

How do they get away with it? How do they get taxpayers to fall in line when the cornerstones of our society like health care are in jeopardy because we are forced to borrow $89 million every day and $625 million every week to finance the debt? The answer in a word is sophistry, using clever but misleading arguments to justify actions.

One thing I noticed in my first year as MP was that an experienced cabinet minister could spin even the most unsound logic into what seemed to be publicly accepted government policy. The finance minister is no exception. He is an extremely clever man politically, and I often wonder what he is really doing with the Canadian taxpayer.

As a businessman and a taxpayer, I finally realized that we are all being hoodwinked. By waxing eloquent about breaking the back of the deficit and floating frightening trial balloons of higher income taxes, the finance minister has finessed many Canadians into believing that it is okay to go into debt, but just not as much as we have been in the past.

I would like to walk through the budget to demonstrate the art of sophistry at work, necessitating this borrowing bill we are debating today. Sophistry is defined as false reasoning or clever but misleading arguments. So much of what is served up in the 1995-96 budget is both politically clever but economically misleading. Is this truly a sound budget as the finance minister claims, or an unsound budget based on false reasoning?

If these walls could talk about the history of deficit fighting in this House, what would they say? They would tell of a former finance minister, now a Prime Minister, who in 1978 said significant reductions in the deficit can be expected. The deficit then was $13 billion. He is back at work now and the deficit is $39 billion. Seventeen years later he is saying the same thing, singing the same tune. When will he learn that times have changed?

These walls would also tell us about Liberal finance minister Allan MacEachen, who in 1982 said the government cannot responsibly add to the deficit. The deficit then was $28.7 billion. Today the Liberals continue to add to that deficit.

These walls would also tell us of Michael Wilson, who in 1990 said: "We will reduce the deficit to $28.5 billion next year. We will cut it in half to $14 billion in three years. We will reduce it even further to $10 billion the year after that". Does that sound like the current finance minister? Is that not what he sounded like the other day when he presented his budget? That deficit grew to $32 billion.

Finally, if these walls could talk they would tell us of our current Minister of Finance, who one year ago promised to break the back of the deficit and attack it head on. He had a projected deficit of $42 billion and the actual deficit that he will announce will probably be around $38 billion.

Deficit has been the focus since 1975. Meanwhile the real problems, the debt and the interest cost to service that debt, keep growing. Adding to the debt and therefore increasing interests costs, regardless of interest rates, regardless of the growth in the economy, will eventually erode program spending, reducing the amount of money for social programs and job creation initiatives.

That is what is wrong with the current direction in which this government is going. Before a single dollar of income is redistributed, before a dime goes to social programs, before a penny is spent on any other government program $2,200 must be paid yearly in interest for each and every person in Canada. Each Canadian's share of direct federal and provincial debt has risen from $4,500 in 1981 to over $25,000 today.

Here we have our clever finance minister talking about the deficit and the fact that he will spend less. He is misleading the Canadian taxpayer with the argument that by lowering the deficit through instalments he is solving our economic problem of the debt. He is not solving the problem. We have to get to a zero deficit. We have to stop adding to the debt. We should have a balanced budget as our immediate target, not somewhere down the road, that floating two-year revolving door.

In their reaction to the clever minister's budget the chartered accountants of Canada have stated: "The government has failed to set firm targets for the reduction of the deficit after 1997. Achieving a $25 billion deficit in 1997, which may well be the high point in the current economic cycle, is not sufficient. We must seize the opportunity now to break the deficit cycle and not risk facing unsustainable levels of deficit in the next economic downturn. We need a longer term plan to bring government spending under control".

Reformers have done this. We set out a clear spending reduction plan in our taxpayers' budget which would reduce the deficit to zero in three years. As our leader has pointed out, the biggest spending decision that the finance minister has made by not cutting program spending more quickly is to increase spending on interest charges from $39 billion when they first were elected to $51 billion when they are defeated in 1997 or 1998.

When the Liberals came into power in 1994 their total government spending was projected to be $158 billion. By 1997 their total projected spending will be $158.6 billion, despite all these spending cuts. On the spending side they will be right back where they started. They have failed to take the necessary steps to deal with the severity of our fiscal crisis and are leading Canada on a track destined for bankruptcy. Where is the benefit for people who have been hit with public service cuts, program cuts and cuts to transfer payments? The only purpose of these cuts, it appears, is to service the ever increasing debt. It is all going to interest.

The debt is the problem. The deficit is simply a contributing factor. It is politically clever but misleading to tell people that by slowing the digging we will fill the whole.

Another clear example in the budget of the finance minister practising the art of sophistry or false reason or clever but misleading arguments is evident when he states that the Liberals are not raising personal income taxes. Of course not. That would have knocked him way down in the polls and the minister knows that. The challenge was therefore to squeeze more money out of the taxpayer without waking them up to that fact. The minister succeeded.

I will give the House four examples. The tax rates of large corporations were raised by 12.5 per cent and corporate surtaxes increased by 1 per cent, from 3 per cent to 4 per cent. These increases will be passed on to consumers and will ultimately fall on the middle class, the very heart and soul of the support of the Liberal party, in the form of higher prices.

The Liberals placed a temporary capital tax on large deposit taking institutions. A temporary tax, there is an oxymoron. It is like a prominent backbencher. In 1917 income tax was originally supposed to be temporary.

Taxing banks means higher costs to Canadians for banking transactions. Watch how quickly service charges change in the next year.

A third example is the Liberals have raised gasoline taxes by 1.5 cents which will cost the average Canadian and so too will higher taxes on cigarettes which the minister sneaked in through a ways and means motion a few weeks ago.

The Liberals have eliminated the public utilities income tax transfers to the provinces which means if your utilities are provided by a private company you will see your rates jump by as much as 25 per cent because they no longer get the same treatment as fat cat government owned utilities.

This is another clever technique used by the finance minister to punish Alberta MPs. Let us punish the city of Calgary for voting six Reformers. Let us reward Edmonton for electing four Liberals. This blatant partisan political endeavour will only come back to haunt the Liberal Party. This was a selective tax grab against Alberta. The Minister of National Resources yesterday did not even have the courage to answer one of my colleague's questions about her support for the PUITTA transfers to the provinces. Eventually those provinces that are considering privatizing their utilities will not do it now because of the extra costs.

Clearly this budget is nothing more than a tax on the consumer. It is a consumer budget. It raises about $1.5 billion that consumers are going to have to pay, not on their personal income tax which they are all happy with, but through hidden taxes, through consumer taxes. It is a form of a GST.

Automobiles do not pay taxes. The people who buy them do. Once again the Minister of Finance is practising the art of sophistry by using a clever but misleading argument to make taxpayers think that he is doing them a favour by not raising their individual tax burden when he is by $1.5 billion.

Another example of sophistry can be found in the finance minister's use of soft targets in his budget projections. The real test of spending cuts from one year to the next is if we spend less than the year before. This government for the second time in a row will be spending more that it did the year before. It is up to $163.9 billion from last year's projected $163.5.

If the Liberals were truly going to spend less they would be below that $163 billion figure. Once again the minister does not sell it that way. He talks about spending cuts, lowering the deficit and that reaching his target of 3 per cent of GDP will solve all our problems. Meeting the 3 per cent target depends on the continuation for another three years of recovery in the business cycle. That is very unlikely to occur. That is why it is called a cycle.

The Liberals continue to delude taxpayers that things will turn around. They believe strongly in overly optimistic economic growth projections. Their hopes for gradual improvement lead them to delay, to defer, to minimize the need for tough and immediate action.

They think gradually they will work this through. It appears as though gradualism has become a Liberal policy. Change should not be introduced too suddenly. To avoid any shocks to the system reforms of any kind should be introduced gradually.

In an article I was recently reading the writer suggested that we use a gradual approach to introduce new traffic laws from driving on the right side of the road to the left side. Do it gradually, buses and trucks this year, cars next year. Gradualism is not going to work.

All that Liberal rhetoric about rolling two year targets does is side track us from the real problem of the debt. Once again gradualism sounds appealing but it is misleading. Interest costs continue to rise. At the end of the Liberal term they will have added another $10 billion to the interest costs of this nation. This is what they are doing. This is where their spending cuts are going. Everybody is sacrificing in this country just to pay the darn interest costs on the debt instead of getting the deficit to zero so that interest costs will not rise.

Why is it on the question of fiscal common sense finance ministers continually react by saying they will balance the budget tomorrow, they will get at it first thing next year, they will aim for a balanced budget but in the meantime they have to tackle the deficit? How would members react to someone who had cancer and planned to wait to seek treatment until he felt better? This is yet another example of a clever but misleading argument by the Minister of Finance.

The Minister of Finance has said that small business is the engine of our economy. It creates 85 per cent of the jobs in Canada. Yet in his budget he tried to take credit for the 400,000 jobs that have been created in this past year in Canada when all the government can take credit for are the 60,000 jobs it created through its infrastructure program which has simply added to the debt.

It is absolutely amazing how many times we heard that the infrastructure program was a huge success, creating years of employment. It was not just short term. Now we see in the budget that funding for the program will be reduced.

If the infrastructure program was such a success, then why has it been cut? Was it not living up to its potential? Through pork barrel programs like infrastructure, the Liberals are being politically clever but, as their budget demonstrates, economically misleading.

Another example of sophistry at work can be found in the finance minister's criticisms of the Reform Party's policy on old age security. The finance minister said the Reform Party's taxpayer's budget would hammer seniors at the low end of the income scale, which simply is not the case.

During the election campaign the Conservatives accused us that this would effect seniors who made $17,000 a year. Now the finance minister has the gall and the nerve and audacity to stand in this House and tell Canadians that we will hurt and harm seniors who make $11,000 a year. That is pathetic.

Petitions March 2nd, 1995

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise to present a petition on behalf of 213 Calgarians which I understand is one of several that has been presented to equal 64,000 names.

It calls on the government to toughen the Young Offenders Act. Many Canadians share the view that the act is not meeting its main objective of deterring young people from committing crimes.