Jack Ramsay

[Justice, March 11th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, as we all know, today in Vancouver hearings begin into Clifford Olson's application for early release. This is the man who brutally raped and murdered 11 little children. Because of Clifford Olson's application the families of these children have to relive their pain and their agony.

I ask the Minister of Justice, who is directly responsible for letting this reprehensible occurrence take place, what action he will take to ensure that these 11 families will never have to go through this agonizing and painful ordeal again.

[Supply, March 10th, 1997]

Tomorrow he is applying. Tell that to the people of Canada.

[Supply, March 10th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to our colleague across the way. When the families of victims appeared before the standing committee on Bill C-45 none of them agreed in testimony with the position of the government. I am sure my hon. colleague who just spoke knows that.

When the member makes statements such as those he has made today, that the government is doing a good job in this area, the question is for whom? Certainly none of the mothers, who lost their children and grandchildren to murderers and who appeared before the committee, thought the government was doing a good job. None of the hundreds of thousands of people who have written and signed petitions opposed to section 745, think the government is doing a good job.

Inasmuch as my hon. colleagues have attacked the Reform Party for exploiting emotional issues surrounding the issue they are mocking, scorning and insulting the victims, the family members, the mothers, grandmothers, fathers, aunts and uncles. They are not represented by the government side. I have not hear a speaker from the government side represent the victims, the families.

In view of the concerns and in the view of the opposition, those who were able to appear before the justice committee and the people of Canada who wrote to us and signed petitions that were tabled in the House, how could the member honestly state the government is doing a good job in this area?

[Supply, March 10th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the energy my hon. colleague across the way always devotes to her efforts. I find that she does not support our proposal or our position that we want to eliminate section 745 completely from the Criminal Code and yet she stood in this House and voted to do that very thing when the private member's bill submitted by the member for York South-Weston was voted on.

Over 70 members of the Liberal Party joined Reformers in support of that bill. She has made a turnabout and she is quite satisfied now with something that is much less, something that is watered down and something that has allowed and will continue to allow the families to suffer and have their agony relived over and over again. She might want to comment on that turnabout.

I was surprised and pleased when I saw her and her colleagues standing and voting for what I think they know the vast majority of Canadians support and would like to see brought forward. I am sure that the discipline within her party has simply caused her to vote along party lines and reject the private member's bill that she originally supported. She might want to comment on that and give the people of her riding and the people of Canada an explanation why she did that.

She criticized the Reform Party for bringing the Olson disgrace to a public forum. I suppose she would have the same criticism for Mike Duffy of CTV television who devoted almost his program yesterday airing this very issue, the absurdity of the Olson application. People like Michael Harris appeared on that program to express their dismay and outrage over this kind of an application being allowed to proceed under the law. She might like to consider that as well.

We are providing a platform for public debate, representing the views and concerns of the victims and their families. The Liberals have provided a platform for Clifford Olson. They have provided the platform based in law where he can bring those families back into court, cross-examine them and put them through the hell they suffered when their children were kidnapped, raped and murdered one more time. I would like her to comment on that.

[Supply, March 10th, 1997]

Why?

[Supply, March 10th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank our colleague from the Bloc for his comments. He is a member of the justice committee and I have always appreciated his participation on that committee.

Very quickly, the question for the hon. member is when will the families of the victims ever have peace of mind? The first shock comes when they lose a child. The second shock comes during the lengthy court hearing. And 15 years later all that is reawakened with the third shock.

Following that, if the application is not successful, the shocks can come in rapid succession every two or three years or whenever. When are the families entitled to peace of mind?

[Supply, March 10th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the brief comments of the member opposite. She referred to the reasonable prospect of success. That is rather an ambiguous term which has not be defined.

It reminds me a little of the relativity of medical and other information as contained in Bill C-46 wherein sexual assault victims will now be protected. Any information they might have granted or given to a doctor, a counsellor or whomever will be protected and will be denied to defence counsel unless the relativity of the evidence is established in the mind of the court.

Professional witnesses appeared and told us that the courts, without any question, were considering the relativity of information. They are not willing to leave out any information so relativity is a matter of speculation from their point of view.

We are faced with the same thing. What judge would say whether or not there is a reasonable prospect of success? All the applicant has to do is create a doubt in the mind of the judge as to whether or not there is a reasonable prospect of success. We will have as many different definitions of that as we have judges sitting on the cases.

Does Clifford Olson have a reasonable prospect of success? I do not know. There are some judges who might say yes to that. He would not have in my mind. He would not have in the mind of the victims. He very well may find judges who will not take the onus of responsibility but will leave it to a judge and jury to hear the whole of the evidence and view it from stem to stern.

By relying on the second level or another level of appeal in Bill C-45 is unproven. It is untested.

Perhaps the hon. member would like to comment on that, bearing in mind the evidence that was submitted before the standing committee on Bill C-46 with respect to the judges simply saying any evidence might be relative to the defence.

[Justice, March 10th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether or not I can do that. Therefore I will withdraw my question.

[Justice, March 10th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, tomorrow in Vancouver hearings begin into Clifford Olson's application for early release. This man brutally murdered 11 Canadian children.

Will the minister who is responsible for letting this hearing take place take action to ensure in the future that families of murder victims will not have to relive their pain and agony over and over again?

[Supply, March 10th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I will be as brief as I can.

Bill C-45 was the justice minister's bill that tinkered with section 745 of the Criminal Code. We opposed it from the beginning. We voted against it but we would not delay it. When a representative of the government approached our caucus to ask us to allow the bill to go through before the summer recess without any delay tactics, we said certainly we oppose the bill and will vote against it.

If the bill had gone through before the summer recess and were passed by the Senate before August 11, 1996, Clifford Olson would have had to appear before a Federal Court judge. The families of his victims would have been screened. The judge would have made a decision on whether or not he had a likelihood of succeeding and could have stopped his application there.

However it was the Bloc that refused to allow the bill to go through before the summer recess and allow Clifford Olson his full court press before a judge and jury. That is the reason Clifford Olson is now making his application for that full court press before a judge and jury.

I have listened to the Bloc members, as I listened to their previous speeches on Bill C-45. I would ask the hon. member what is a fair and just penalty in his mind. I hope he will answer that question. Those who have been asked that question before have not answered it. What is a fair and just penalty for the taking of an innocent life, the premeditated murder of an innocent person? Is it 15 years? Is it 25 years? What is it? What value does the hon. member place on the life of an innocent human being?