Deborah Grey

[Canadian Human Rights Act, May 28th, 2002]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-465, an act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to introduce my private member's bill today. This took a great deal of research and talking to a lot of people who feel truly discriminated against regarding their assistance dogs. We know that seeing eye dogs certainly have become very commonplace in Canada, but it has come to my attention that an enormous number of Canadian citizens have been denied access to goods, services and transportation because they have fully qualified assistance dogs that are turned away from special transportation facilities, are not allowed in schools, and are not allowed in public places and restaurants.

My bill seeks to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act so that these people would have full access and would be able to live full and very productive lives with the assistance of these marvellous trained animals that are able to help them.

Right now I would ask for the House to give unanimous consent to just put this through because it is so sensible.

[Assisted Human Reproduction Act, May 27th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity as well to rise on this important occasion, one that we have been anticipating for years. In fact this dates back many years now. When the Prime Minister came in and assumed office in 1993, there were some fundamental issues then. Here we are almost nine years later dealing with this.

It seems very strange that we are doing this in almost a hurry up fashion before the House rises for the summer. In fact there is even talk of prorogation. We certainly have to question how important this is to the government, in light of recent events. I am sure the government has some concerns about this but one would hate to think that this might be some sort of tactic to toss it in to get flaming issues off the back burner. Nonetheless, we do need to look at this but not in such a hurried fashion. We should really study this.

Ten or fifteen years ago we would not have even had this debate because the technology was not available to determine some of these very sensitive but important ethical and technological questions. We certainly need to deal with it because the advances in medicine have been absolutely phenomenal.

I would like to take the few minutes I have to talk about the important and amazing breakthroughs taking place with non-embryonic stem cell research or adult stem cell research if that is a synonym. Then I would like to talk about what the whole argument is, where the road will lead us and what is the definition of human life. I would like to use that as my thesis and discuss for a few moments how important it is to say that the Canadian Alliance supports stem cell research. Again the breakthroughs in medicine and research have been just absolutely phenomenal in these last few years, and we are able to celebrate that.

Having said that, it is not all done because there are breakthroughs daily, weekly, monthly, in terms of stem cell research and exciting things are happening all the time. It is not a closed book.

If we bring in legislation to say that we will go down the embryonic stem cell research route without fully realizing and celebrating the importance and amazing breakthroughs taking place with non-embryonic stem cell research, then it seems to me we would be cutting ourselves short, cutting the Canadian public short and cutting short the people whose lives are depending on this.

There have been tremendous breakthroughs with Parkinson's disease and MS. We had the ALS people here on the Hill not long ago. These are real people who have real names, real faces, real families and whose lives can benefit so much by this.

It would be premature for us to say that the government has all the answers and that we will go down this path when we have not fully explored the path of adult stem cell research. Because of these exciting breakthroughs, it would be essential for us to say that there would be a three year review, as the government has said. That is terrific but I hate to be cynical but this. Those of us who have been around more than three years have watched some of these reviews. A few of us have seen a few three year cycles in this place. The Canadian Alliance is calling for a three year moratorium on this so we can see, in the long term, some of the scientific advances being made in this area.

Adult stem cell research, or non-embryonic stem cell research, has three benefits. There are probably lots more but we could talk about three of them. First, the cells are readily accessible and there are plenty of us around.

Second, they are not subject to tissue rejection. These are cells that have gone on and in some cases some much longer than others. There is tremendous potential and realization. If the cells are not subject to tissue rejection, what a wonderful thing. We could do the stem cell research and testing. Because these are not embryonic stem cells, people would be able to move ahead because there would be no tissue rejection, which is important and can be devastating to many transplant patients.

Third, it poses minimal ethical concerns. I am sure that every one of us would agree that there are huge ethical concerns here. As I mentioned earlier, this was not even a factor 10 or 15 years ago. We did not have the potential for these kinds of things so it was not a real ethical dilemma. However it now is.

We get into the very question of what is important and what is essential for us to realize in terms of embryos are embryos and when do we stop saying that an embryo has been developed by parents. Let us not just call them donors, because whoever they are, they have names, faces, families and loved ones as well. When does it leave that path and swap over to the path of getting at it and farming these things for pure scientific research or use as donors.

We talk about that and the transition from embryonic stem cell research to what is the definition of human life, because I think that is with what all of us probably struggle. I know the committee, which did tremendous work, discussed that I am sure at length and had to come up with what human life really was and when did it start. Those questions have been asked for a very long time. I will not get into that debate.

I just want to show a couple of examples of how thankful I am and how strongly I believe, because of DNA and because of all kinds of other factors, that life begins at conception. If we look at the DNA of any embryo, that is again technology which has only been perfected or advanced in the last several years. DNA does not start at birth. It does not start at 27 weeks gestation. It does not start at 13.5 days. It starts at the moment of conception. That, with scientific research to back it up, is when life really starts. Then we get down the road to whether we start farming these things or do we celebrate that as human life.

Let me tell the House about my brother, Sean, who is adopted. He came to our home when I was about six years old and he was about two or two and a half years old. All of a sudden I had a brother. I am very grateful that somebody, somewhere, who was in a difficult situation, chose to give him up for adoption. Because of that I ended up with a brother. I do not pay any attention to the fact that he is adopted or that he has different DNA than any of the rest of us. It does not matters. What matters is that somebody, somewhere realized that this was a human life.

He is now a living, breathing human being. He is my brother, he has been for a very long time and I am glad for that. That is the real life, the real face, the real people issue of this for which I am grateful. He has been my brother forever and will continue to be. I am grateful that somebody, somewhere realized that although he was just an embryo then, he was still a human being.

Let me talk for a couple of minutes about something I read in the newspaper yesterday. When we talk about when human life really starts, we think it has to have so much weight or so much gestation or whatever. There was a story about a little girl. The newspaper named her Pearl because it could not give her real name. This took place in France. She was born in February. She weighed 10 ounces. This is an absolute record of a living, breathing person who was born at 10 ounces.

I think about a pound of butter. I am not too good with math, but I think about my palm pilot and how I can bounce it around in my hand. It feels a little bit less than a pound of butter so maybe it is 10 ounces, I do not know. The palm pilot people would know, but it is not very big. If we hold 10 ounces in our hands, it is not very big. Yet there she is. She came home from the hospital this weekend. She weighs four pounds, four ounces now. She is a real live human being. That to me is exciting.

That is what we need to debate and celebrate; that human life begins right at the moment of conception, because that is when our DNA starts. That is where little baby Pearl started. She has gone home from the hospital now and I am sure she will give great joy and satisfaction to her family.

I will just wrap up by saying, I move:

That the motion be amended by replacing all the words after the word “that” with:

“this House declines to give second reading to Bill C-56, an act respecting assisted human reproduction, since the principle of the Bill does not recognize the value of non-embryonic stem cell research which has had great advancements in the last year”.

[Supply, May 7th, 2002]

Madam Speaker, how in the world is it that we think we can justify this by just ranting against the Americans and saying how dreadful those big, bad bullies are? What are we going to do to fight against this 27% tariff?

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, April 30th, 2002]

I have ear tags.

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, April 30th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, that is right. Being an animal and pet woman I would say sit or stay, but that would be inappropriate for sure.

Looking further at the idea of companions and pets, I love animals and appreciate them. I lived in the country for many years. It was terrific. However to elevate them to even a similar level to my real life companion, my husband Lew, is a bit much. I am sure hon. members would agree.

We are arguing about whether we can say the word pet or animal. Some animal rights people have great frustrations as well. We have noticed this in some of their literature and lobbying. They talk about researchers. I will make it plain for Hansard so it will go on the record forever. In terms of the research we do in Canada regarding disease, let us make sure it is up front and reasonable. Let us make sure it is all those good things. However I want it on the record that I would sooner have testing and research done on pets and animals than on my mother, my sister or someone like that. Let us be real. Let us be reasonable. That is what is research is about.

As I look at Bill C-15B I think of what was said by the former justice minister who is now the health minister and my next door neighbour in Edmonton Northwest. She stated that is what is lawful today in the course of legitimate activities would be lawful after the bill received royal asset. Let us hope so. However if it was not the former justice minister's intention to change what is lawful today, why did she not simply raise the penalties for existing animal cruelty offences? That would make a great deal of sense.

Let us look at some of the penalties. The bill talks about maximum penalties of $5,000 or $10,000 but I think we all know that rarely if ever do we see maximum penalties. We see minimum payments or penalties, discussions, plea bargaining, et cetera, but rarely do we see maximum penalties. We need to be careful.

The problem or one of the problems with Bill C-15B in its current form is not the penalties for animal abuse but the lack of protection of Canadian citizens from unwarranted and injurious legal action. We can see how this stuff would get tied up in the courts. Lord knows we have enough stuff tied up in the courts now. It is the normal protection of the law which any citizen should have a right to expect.

As I mentioned, I lived in the country and had dogs and cats that were free to roam in the bush. That is a good thing for animals to be able to do. When I had animal rights activists in my office we went through the definitions of pet, animal, companion and whatever. I made it clear that I not only loved animals but had several animals when I lived in the bush. Then I moved to Edmonton North. I do not have any animals. I do not have pets while I live in the city because it is a little too restrictive for them. That was my personal choice.

I found out that someone lived in downtown Toronto and had a couple of cats and a dog or whatever. My friend Fritz who runs hundreds of head of cattle would have something to say about pets, animals or companions being cooped up in an apartment in downtown Toronto. My hon. friend from Lakeland knows exactly what I mean when I talk about cattle country in Heinsburg and animals that are free to roam. People who farm out there take it pretty seriously.

My friend Fritz knows every one of his cattle personally. He knows which is which, when they calf and what they give birth to in the spring. Yet he is being criticized for being cruel to animals. He has had dogs, cats and all kinds of pets. He loves them dearly, feeds them well, shelters them and cares about them. He is not impressed by someone having two or three animals in an apartment in downtown Toronto. He would consider that cruelty to animals. He surely would. He would consider it a terrible fate for any animal. In looking at the definitions we could get into all kinds of arguments about who is cruel and who is not, what is appropriate for animals and what is not.

In fact, the dairy producers are very concerned about the bill as well. In response to the Dairy Farmers of Canada, a member of parliament stated:

Farmers, ranchers and others who legitimately use animals should not have to rely on the judgment of individual crown attorneys for protection from animal rights activists. This protection should come from Parliament and be enshrined in the law.

That is where it should be enshrined: in the legislation, not the regulations. Let us not send this through a whole new flurry of court activity where things continue to go round and round. If in fact the bill is attempting to eliminate cruelty to animals, then let us do it but let us not get into so many of these other areas that will go round and round in the courts. Let us go after cruelty to animals and leave out the rest of it.

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, April 30th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the debate today. We need to spend a few minutes being ultimately reasonable about the whole issue of cruelty to animals. Obviously not one of us in the Chamber would condone such behaviour. It is despicable. When we look at some of the examples with which we have been provided it is a dreadful thing to think anyone would behave in such a way or think it was amusing, helpful or whatever.

If that is all the bill looked at and dealt with there would be no problems or questions from any of the members. However as members can see, Bill C-15B has insidious factors like other legislation often does. We in our party think things should be put in legislation but the government says no, it would rather have them dealt with by regulation. It is a pretty scary pattern we have witnessed from the government time after time.

The amendment we brought forward asks that the government report its findings to the House by December 4, 2002. As members know, sometimes things around here disappear into a great black hole and never surface again. Some of the discussions today, even those by government members, have made us realize Bill C-15B has had several lives. It has not had nine lives but it has had several. It is pretty frustrating to watch because all of us would like to see good, sensible legislation that provides for harsh, swift and sure penalties for those who commit acts of cruelty to animals.

We then get into the grey areas such as not condoning cruelty to animals. We could ask what cruelty means. Some might think it includes beating a dog into shape or the excessive use of force when training an animal. Dairy farmers and cattle producers all have their own definitions of cruelty. I do not think any of us would like the idea of getting a hook through the lip and a club over the head but many sportsmen and fishermen do just that. Mr. Speaker, I know you and I would be quite happy to go out for a seafood supper and enjoy it to the hilt. It is all a matter of definition.

We need a sense of wisdom and reasonableness in the whole debate. There seems to be a backlash from rural members of the government caucus. That is why we said earlier that we should bring the folks in and have a vote on it now. Bill C-15B has had many lives. Yet at the same time it is rather difficult on the government side. We saw the government's bravado in saying bring them in, call in the clowns and let us have a vote. That would be a difficult thing for the government to do right now. Government members are having meetings and there is a lot of concern and lobbying going on.

I mentioned the word lobbying. There has been a enormous lobby with regard to Bill C-15B. Some of my colleagues have already discussed this. I was one of the people lobbied. Mr. Speaker, I know you would find this amusing but of particular concern. Some perfectly decent individuals from an animal rights group came to my office to talk about animals. They asked me if I had a companion. I told them I certainly did. His name is Lew and he is my husband back home. I had to push it a bit further to see what the companion idea was all about.

I do not know if these people ever got around to the word pet. I am rather fond of the word. As members will recall, I lived in the country for many years when I was in the rural constituency of Beaver River. I have had all kinds of pets. I loved them. I treated them well. They were wonderful animals and pets. They were wonderful companions because I lived in the bush on my own. However that is what they were. They were pets.

[Supply, April 23rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his remarks. All of us in the House again need to focus on the intent of this motion and maybe not on the actual wording or the amendments that are being talked about across the aisle.

How anyone could determine that we are trying to lower the age of consent is beyond me. We want to raise the age of consent, and not for the age of consensual sexual relations, for this predatory practice of people who are much older than these young people who are vulnerable or of people who are in a position of power or seniority who prey upon younger people.

Could the member tell me really how simple and clear this is? We are trying to raise the age of consent for perpetrators of criminal activities who seem to be abounding so unfortunately in this day and age.

[Supply, April 23rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, while we are talking about partisan issues, I appreciate the member who said that the actual wording of the motion was very non-partisan and then stood up and said way to go on the meeting. That is just great, but let us not blow horns here. Let us blow whistles on the people who are perpetrating these acts. These are criminal acts.

It is one thing to get into this whole idea of the definition of artistic merit. Forgive me for not being into modern art, but there is no way anyone will ever convince me that this kind of stuff would ever qualify as having artistic merit. I think all of us share that frustration.

The question here is regarding the friendly amendment. This is a motion that should speak on behalf of all of us in terms of intent and what it is we are trying to accomplish. It is non-partisan. People are equally frustrated on both sides of the House.

These are the kinds of things we can put into that friendly amendment. If we in the House of Commons propose the intent of a motion, there are well-paid people around here who can draft those things legally, technically and properly to make sure it is charter proof. Let us do that.

What we need is the intent to say let us get at this and without blowing horns be able to blow the whistle. Could the member comment on that? Let us give the intent to the drafters. Surely there is a way they could come up with something to get us through this.

[Excise Act, 2001, April 9th, 2002]

That would be very unwise.

[Canadian Heritage, March 20th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, let us see today if the heritage minister can tell us if there is a final report regarding land use regulations at Lake Louise? She paid $56,000 to Olsen and Olsen to produce one. Her department first said that the company only produced a “draft document”. Now the department says that there is a final document, poof.

Maybe the minister can just jump up out of her seat today, perhaps jump over it, and tell us what the actual truth is. The question is, if the final report was actually produced by her department and not by Olsen and Olsen, why did she hand out such huge gobs of cash for something that was never done?