Deborah Grey

[Supply, April 27th, 1995]

Needy people.

[Supply, April 27th, 1995]

Why should we, he says. I guess if everything is self-financing and self-funding and the country is in great shape, sure, let us offer freebies.

We continue to pay for health care premiums and I do not think people mind that because they know the service they get is absolutely terrific. Some provinces charge health care premiums, others do not. That is the way it is.

Some people have private insurance to supplement their basic coverage. That is the way it is. People who can afford to pay are perfectly entitled to do so. In my province, some can afford to get eye laser surgery at the Gimble clinic either in Calgary or the new one in Edmonton. Those people say: "I want to pay for it. I will step out of the queue of those waiting for laser surgery, perhaps at the University of Alberta Hospital, and I will get it done at the Gimble clinic. I will pay my $1,200 and I will free up a spot in a public institution for somebody who is waiting in the line". That is not reprehensible. That is the way it has been for a long time.

Somebody says: "Yes, it is reprehensible". What about people who live on welfare? Do we who have jobs say: "Isn't it dreadful about all of those on welfare". No, we are grateful to have a job and we will pay our taxes. We will make sure those who are needy in our society are able to collect welfare. Surely that is not reprehensible.

Would my friend over here quit her job right now as an MP and not pay taxes any more because she does not think her tax money should support welfare for the people who really need it?

Of course not. Well, she is thinking on that. Those of us who pay are blessed. We are able to pay our taxes and we want them to go to the more needy in our society. Why should we not do it with health care? It makes perfect sense to me.

The hon. member should not hog the line-up. She has her place in the queue. If she is in there and says that she gets health care because, or maybe she is demanding child care, who knows? She is making $60,000 a year. I would say let her pay her own babysitters. This is nothing different. If you are able to pay, pay and step aside for someone who may be a little more needy. Perhaps not so sanctimonious but maybe a little more needy.

We are under no illusion here. We have some serious problems with health care. Federal cash transfers in support of health care are projected to go down to zero in the next 10 to 15 years. This is from a government, a Liberal government. Medicare is having its 30th birthday. It is wheezing and gasping its last breath on its 30th birthday.

There are real problems. Funding? Sorry, the well has dried up. Under successive Liberal governments year after year we are deficit spent and we are really sorry but the well has run dry. The Liberals cannot go to the Canadian public and say: "Sorry that is just the way it is" yet pretend, give speeches, go on CBC and CTV News saying: "We have all the money we need for it". The minister said that today. I hope they show a clip of that on the national news tonight. There are a lot of people, a lot of taxpayers who know that is absolute fantasy.

It would make sense to prepare for that day. We know we have problems. Let us prepare for that day. Let us be ready for it rather than just saying: "Do not touch it, do not do anything to it". We are in bad shape financially and we need to make sure we move ahead and solve the problems instead of just complaining about them.

In my province of Alberta there have been huge cuts. I want to let the hon. members know that in 1970, 25 years ago, the whole budget for Alberta was $1 billion for everything, not just health care. In 1982, 12 years later, the entire budget was $12 billion. We had some boom years in our province. With the oil boom we went from a $1 billion budget to $12 billion in 12 years. That is a lot of money. Imagine what happened. Hospitals sprang up all over. We were spending two to three times per capita on each Albertan as many other provinces were doing. Many of these cutbacks may just be bringing us back to some of those levels.

Recently I underwent major surgery at the University of Alberta Hospital in Edmonton. My experience there-I can only talk for myself-is that for major surgery, for a hysterectomy, I waited my time in line. I did not want to go to the National Defence Centre and jump the queue. I said: "I will go. I pay my health care. I pay premiums in Alberta. So I will take my turn and just go in with the regular run of the mill people". I was asked: "Do you want a room of your own?. It is $40 a night". I thought: "That is cheaper than the Relax Inn so sure I will book in for it". Little did I know because I have never been sick and am grateful for that, my health care card, level three for which I pay the goose egg, absolutely nothing every month, covered my room. I was grateful for that.

The people in that hospital were professional. They were kind, looked after me and treated me really well. I am standing here, two months later, fully recovered and recuperated. Perhaps I am an example that the health system works. However, let us make sure that we do not let it get any sicker or in any worse shape than it is already.

Health care is worth it in this country. Regardless of the fact that members say there are no tiers in it, let us shed some tears for the system and make sure we make it right.

[Supply, April 27th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, on this business of a two-tier system, do we want it or do we not want it, we have had it for years. Let me draw to the member's attention that we have a two-tier health care system right now.

If my friends would like to get out their wallets or their purses or whatever, I would refer them to their benefits card from the public service health care plan. Mine says: "D.C. Grey, hospital level three". As soon as we see other levels we ask whether this is a two-tier health care system or a one tier system. Members opposite shun that and talk about the fact that we could never have a two-tier health care system. My card says level three, so how many tiers are we looking at here?

Let me also draw to their attention that MPs pay exactly zero; zero comes off their paycheques every month.

Anyone in the gallery who works for the public service or anyone who works in our offices, anyone who is a public servant, has the option to have a level three health care card. My

staff members have those. They pay if they are single $5.32 a month; if they are a family they pay $10.35 a month. I got that today from our pay and benefits clerk in the comptroller's office.

If we are to talk about two tier health and be so sanctimonious about it, that we in the Reform Party will only have an American system in two tier health, this is nonsense. We cannot beat around the bush because that is fact. We pay zero for this level of hospitalization. Public servants, people who work for us in our offices, pay $5.32 or $10.35 a month. That is two tier or spending differently. MPs are off the hook again; zero comes off our paycheques for that. We have some serious problems in the country and that is one tiny example.

We are in favour and believe every Canadian should have access to health care regardless of their ability to pay. That is a fact. That is important across the country. It comes down to how we will pay for that. The country is $550 billion in the hole and yet the health minister this morning said it is just going along fine and we have lots of money.

Deficit spending in the late sixties and early seventies has dug us into a hole so deep that if we do not get this thing under control even the size of the Chamber would not hold the cash we owe. It is rising at a rate of $1,500 per second.

For people on the government benches to say we are dreaming on this side of the House and everything is as safe as could be forever, that is not true.

My friends across the way know it. We cannot be eating up interest rate payments at the rate we are paying and expect everything and the status quo to go along as it has.

There are discrepancies in the system right now. The system needs to be fixed. There are many tiers, many levels of health care. Let us admit it rather than having a shade pulled over our eyes and trying to go out to Alberta and scare the daylights out of us and my health care minister. Do not try to frighten anybody. Do not accuse Reformers or the Bloc of fearmongering.

We are dealing with the facts. We have serious economic problems. We do have a two tier health system. My friend from Winnipeg this morning, a doctor, said he was all in favour of the Liberal plan of health care. He was specifically asked whether he had ever in his medical practice referred one of his patients to the Mayo Clinic. I suspect he did. I suspect there were many times in his medical profession because I think he was an excellent doctor who would tell someone they needed to get to the Mayo Clinic fast. Winnipeg is plenty close to the Mayo. I bet he referred lots of patients there.

I bet the doctor from Vancouver Centre who lives close to the American border, in someone's best interest if they could afford to pay, would send them down to the Mayo Clinic, California, Seattle or wherever for health care if they could afford it. This is happening all the time.

To say we are just fearmongering in the Reform Party, forget that. Let us get on with solving the problem.

They also talked about our position in the campaign. That was $150 billion ago. The national debt is now at $550 billion, $150 billion more than when a lot of greenhorns walked into this place not even a year and a half ago. The debt and the interest on it are chewing so quickly that if we do not get this problem under control it will destroy the national medicare program more than anything else.

Is there a mix of health care plans? I was really surprised as a westerner when I first came down here to discover that even though I in my teaching career had been paying for my Alberta health care forever people in Ontario do not even pay for their premiums. That sounded pretty strange to me. They do not in Manitoba either.

[Supply, April 27th, 1995]

And public utilities.

[Petitions, April 26th, 1995]

Finally, Madam Speaker, also pursuant to Standing Order 36, I have another petition signed by many people in the constituency of Beaver River, Bonnyville, Plamondon, Mallaig, and various towns, who are asking also that physician assisted suicide or legalizing euthanasia not be considered in the Canadian Parliament.

The petitioners are also praying that Parliament continue to reject euthanasia and physician assisted suicide and that the present provisions of section 241 of the Criminal Code of Canada, which forbid counselling, procuring, aiding or abetting that person to commit suicide, be enforced vigorously, and finally that Parliament consider expanding palliative care that would be accessible to all dying persons in Canada.

[Petitions, April 26th, 1995]

Second, Madam Speaker, there are many constituents from Beaver River, from Radway and Smoky Lake who are asking, pursuant to Standing Order 36, that the government not implement Bill C-41 and specifically section 718(2), which would give special provision based on sexual orientation. The petitioners say that the behaviour people engage in does not warrant special consideration in Canadian law.

[Petitions, April 26th, 1995]

Madam Speaker, I have several petitions, pursuant to Standing Order 36, from many people from the lower mainland of British Columbia and some from Alberta saying that they are concerned about the fact that Canadians are overburdened with taxation. The petitioners are asking the federal Parliament to not consider tax increases and in fact implement a taxpayer protection act to limit federal spending.

[Point Of Order, April 26th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I very briefly want to mention that I made an error on page 11771 in Hansard in debate when the member for Broadview-Greenwood was up speaking and the member for Saint-Léonard came in. I did not hear that he was calling time allocation on Bill

C-76. I said "on this piece of legislation", and we were actually debating Bill C-70. I just wanted to straighten out the difference between Bill C-70 and Bill C-76, although it is just as disgusting to bring in time allocation on anything.

[Income Tax Act, April 25th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to applaud the member for the work he has done over the years on the single tax. I know he certainly understands that we on this side of the House support it.

He said there are days when he feels as if he is spinning his wheels. I would like to ask him specifically how he felt a few moments ago when someone from his caucus walked into this Chamber in the middle of his speech and said that time allocation was going to be brought in on this piece of legislation.

The hon. member and I sat together on this side of the House in the last Parliament. It was deplorable then for the Tory government to bring in time allocation.

Could he explain to me if he feels like he is spinning his wheels right now because someone just cut him off with time allocation? This is debate, openness and democracy? Bunk. Could he address that please.

[Oklahoma City Bombing, April 24th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I too would like to pay tribute and attention to the terrible tragedy that occurred in Oklahoma City last week on April 19. It truly was a shock to the world.

Our sympathy goes out to all of those who lost friends and family members in this cowardly assault on innocent people, especially the children, both those who died and those who lost their parents.

This is a disgusting, despicable crime committed by a sick element of society, an element that one could not even imagine exists in our land and in our nations all around the world.

I hope there will be better procedures established to detect these people and foresee this potential danger to society. Justice must be served swiftly against the cowards who committed this heinous crime and a justice that will ensure the sentence fits the crime.

Oklahoma, our thoughts and prayers are with you.