Rick Borotsik

[Supply, June 12th, 2001]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to be able to rise in perhaps this next to last debate of this session of parliament, and to do so on a supply motion of the Alliance Party.

As for the motion itself, I will speak to that. I agree with a lot of what is in the motion, and certainly the party I represent will be supporting it for any number of reasons. I will get into that.

The first thing I should mention is that I had hoped that the final supply day of the Alliance Party could have put a topic on the floor of the Chamber that was a bit more pertinent to the issues of the day. I can think of any number. Perhaps Bill C-15 could have been one.

We sat in this Chamber and talked about the Minister of Justice not being prepared to split a justice bill, which I think each and every member of the House could accept, with respect to Internet pornography and stalking legislation. It simply would be a matter of splitting off what I consider to be two areas of Bill C-15 which have no business being in the omnibus bill. They are the issues of gun control and cruelty to animals, which are very specifically pertinent to me because I am a member who represents a rural riding.

That issue could well have been debated. In fact, the government of the day could have been taken to task for not doing something that it should have done in order to get the legislation through the House.

Another issue of which the member is very cognizant, and he certainly is a member who is prepared to have a lot of political capital expended on it, is gun control. We perhaps should have had the opportunity to have a debate on the floor of the House today, as it pertains to Bill C-15 as well.

We have a government that has not put a budget together for the House for almost a year and a half. It will be two years before we have a budget. That is a very important issue which we should be talking about today before we break for the summer. However, what we are talking about is private members' business, which is important, but not as I understand it of the most prevalent importance as we head into the summer.

I would also like to say now that I will be splitting my time with my colleague, the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. He can take that particular concept from there.

Regarding private members' business, I sit on the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and also on the private members' business committee, so I perhaps have some knowledge of which I speak. That may be corrected under questions and comments I am sure.

This is an issue, as the learned member from the NDP knows, the member for Winnipeg—Transcona who has been here since then, since 1979. We know there is an evolution with respect to private members' business. We know that ultimately there will be refinements and changes to a system. We as a society change over the years. We as a House change over the years. We as members of the House representing our own respective constituencies change over the years and require and demand more ability to stand in the House and speak on issues that are very important and prevalent to us.

The member talked about 1979 and referred to newer members in the House and not older members. Obviously since 1979 he would have to refer to himself as an older member. However, I have a lot of respect for the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona. Being here for that length of time, he knows how difficult it is to move this House and governments of any guise, whether they be Liberal or Conservative, to make the necessary changes within the procedures of House affairs.

I am one who specifically believes unequivocally that all private members' business should be votable. I can speak to some experience as recent as last week when I put forward a bill to the House which had been diligently worked on over the last number of months. I felt very strongly about the bill because it specifically impacted my constituents. It dealt with safety nets for agriculture because I felt it was very important that we come to some resolution on that issue. I put forward a bill which in my opinion would have taken us in that direction. Lo and behold the bill was deemed not votable.

A number of members from the Alliance Party and the New Democratic Party, and I spoke in favour of that piece of legislation. Unfortunately, it was limited to one hour of debate, was not votable and died when I gave my final five minutes of comments. That piece of legislation will no longer have a chance to go through the House.

I speak of my own personal experience but every member sitting in the House has had the same experience and can say the same thing. They believe very strongly that with their particular issue it is important to have the vehicle, not only to debate in the House but also to give everybody the opportunity to stand on his or her feet and say yea or nay to that particular piece of legislation. I would love to see the committee work toward that end, and we are. The motion by the member for Yorkton—Melville would also assist us to work toward that end.

Recently in committee we discussed suggestions to change the current model to allow all bills to be votable. There was some difficulty trying to massage this through the necessary model and process.

For example, it was suggested that 264 members of the House could have a private member's bill that was votable. What is the model? Does each member of the House get one votable bill per parliament? Perhaps. This would mean there would be 66 per year depending on when the Prime Minister called an election. That figure of 66 was based on an average of four years, but it could be three and a half or two and a half years. We do not know. However we will use the average of four years.

A survey was conducted and it was found that not all members wanted to have a votable bill or motion. Some did not wish to go through the process or they wished, for their own reasons, not to have that particular tool. That is their decision to make. Nobody should be forced to have a votable motion or bill. However, in my opinion, those who wish to have a votable item should have the ability to have at least one that is votable throughout a parliament. That can be accomplished.

It was also suggested that there should be some criteria available to stop what others may consider to be frivolous. What one person deems frivolous, another person may well deem very serious. Criteria have to be established. Currently within the guise of private members' business there are some criteria already established, but they have to be changed and massaged.

However, it is a fairly reasonable start to say that if a bill proposed by member x conformed to the list of criteria, then it should go forward as a private member's bill, votable within a parliament. If for some reason a committee felt that it did not conform to that criteria, there could be an appeal process built into the system. The appeal process could be to a non-partisan, all party committee. It could be an appeal process from the Speaker or an appeal process from House leaders. Maybe that would be the vehicle to use to make sure that the bill conformed to what we considered to be the criteria.

However what I am saying is that anything is possible. I think we all agree that members should have the right to have their bills voted on. We all agree that there should be a move in that direction.

The motion we have before us today says that the report should be tabled before parliament by November 2001, and I will add please. The committee is working toward that. The timeline may well be a bit limited. As the member for Yorkton—Melville well knows, the wheels of this place move somewhat slowly. Perhaps we will have a break this summer, perhaps not. We may sit until August, who knows. If that is the case, we can keep the committee going. If not, the committee will break. Only coming back in September does not leave a long time to have this report tabled in the House.

Suffice it to say the member is right and the motion is right. We will support it going forward. Hopefully an evolution of this Chamber, this House, ultimately will come up with a solution whereby all members will be happy. By the way, that solution may last for only a short period of time because not all members are happy with everything that is done. We may well have to look at adjustments in the future.

[Motor Vehicle Transport Act, June 11th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, members of the Progressive Conservative Party will vote yes to the motion.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

[National Agriculture Industry Relief Coordination Act, June 5th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I will close the debate and will be brief. I thank the hon. members for being in the House this late and speaking to an issue, which means a lot to me.

My constituency consists of agriculture. My economic base is agriculture. I believe very strongly that anything we can do in the House to assist the agricultural industry to get through these difficult times is important for us all, whether we are on the opposition side of the bench or on the government's side of the bench.

I would like to suggest that the parliamentary secretary spoke very eloquently. However when I listened to his speech, it seemed he was saying that everything in agriculture was just hunky-dory and that it had all of those wonderful programs associated with it, which could help agriculture get over this terrible speed bump. That in fact is not the case.

I come from a constituency that has had a double whammy. It had the double whammy of a natural disaster in 1999, when 1.3 million acres were not sown. The next whammy were the crops that were generated in the 2000 crop year and put in this year. They are generating commodity prices so low this year that producers cannot pay back all the losses they incurred for the 1999 crop year. So things are not hunky-dory.

The reason for this bill was to suggest that a committee be struck and be charged with the responsibility of coming forward to the minister, then to the government and to this parliament with a safety net program that absolutely would work.

As I said earlier, we have models in this country, particularly the ASRA program in Quebec and perhaps the MRI program in Ontario. If we could get a committee that would bring together all stakeholders and put forward the right safety net program and model and have it come to fruition with the proper financial resources coming both from the federal and provincial governments, then maybe we would not have to stand in the House over and over again trying to make sure the government recognizes there is a very serious problem in agriculture.

I would like to thank the House for its indulgence. Unfortunately the AIDA program is an unmitigated disaster. The CFIP program will be an unmitigated disaster. If there is a disaster caused by weather in Alberta this year, the federal government will not be there to help and assist. If there is another weather disaster, whether it be in Nova Scotia or in the southeastern portion of the province of Manitoba, where we are suffering through a similar fate as I did in 1999, the federal government will not be there. If it is, it will be an ad hoc program.

It absolutely amazes me that the government does not have the ability to put forward what I believe are the right programs. That can be developed. However the political will is not there.

I thank the House for its indulgence, and hopefully next time we can get this voted on.

[National Agriculture Industry Relief Coordination Act, June 5th, 2001]

That is not a point of order.

[National Agriculture Industry Relief Coordination Act, June 5th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. House leader for putting that information forward. It is very important that we can vote on that particular motion an hour earlier.

Dealing with my bill now instead of the government's bill on pay raises, I would suggest that the agriculture ministers who were appearing before the committee all agreed that a safety net program should be put together. Dealing with that issue with respect to the committee I am proposing, with the committee being made up not only of farmers, producers, industry people and government people but also of people from the provinces, we would then be able to have a group get together to put in place the right process, the right model, and then take that forward, and not just to the minister because unfortunately the minister loses those recommendations on a fairly regular basis. I do not think anybody, including the minister of agriculture, could have possibly put forward a worse program than the AIDA program and could have possibly put forward a worse implementation than the AIDA implementation.

In my constituency office about 50% of my time and my staff's time is devoted to trying to find out the status of AIDA claims. That was supposed to be finished by now. We had a safety net program called AIDA that was supposed to put dollars in the pocket immediately. As a matter of fact I heard the minister say at one time that the AIDA program was bankable.

I would have great difficulty in suggesting that any producer could go to any bank in the country and generate a loan based on the criteria of AIDA. That producer would be laughed out of any financial institution, because there was no understanding at all of what kind of financial compensation producers would get when they applied to AIDA. Producers spent a lot of money at their accountants for the information, applied to AIDA and had a number that was generated from the criteria.

Applications to AIDA went through a bunch of processes. In some cases producers were told what the number would be and when they ended up with the cheque it was totally different and always for less than what the original application was for. In some cases it was up to 50% less. In some cases after they made their application based on information developed by their accountants, the government came back and said they would get nothing out of the AIDA program. Is that bankable?

The point I am trying to make is that if this committee were in existence it could put forward its model and the implementation of its model as well. Everybody would live happily ever after except of course for the government because it might finally have to do something right with respect to agriculture. That would be a terrible divergence from where it is now. If it actually did something right for producers and agriculture, producers would not know what hit them.

Unfortunately the legislation is non-votable. It is an issue that is very dear and close to my heart and to the hearts of the people I represent in my rural area. Unfortunately a good safety net program will not come forward. The new CFIP has been extended for two years and it is very underfunded. I do not believe the government has the political will to put forward the necessary programs to keep agriculture prosperous in the future.

I would appreciate hearing from the parliamentary secretary who probably does not understand the issue very well. However I am sure he has some notes that have been made for him, so I will sit back and listen.

[National Agriculture Industry Relief Coordination Act, June 5th, 2001]

moved that Bill C-263, an act to establish a national committee to develop policies and procedures to ensure coordination in the delivery of programs by governments in the case of agricultural losses or disasters created by weather, pests, shortages of goods or services or market conditions, and the coordination of the delivery of information, assistance, relief and compensation, and to study the compliance of such programs with World Trade Organization requirements, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to my private member's business with respect to Bill C-263.

First, I would like to acknowledge the fact that the bill is not a votable bill. It will not receive second reading. It will not go any further than this one hour of debate this evening, which is very unfortunate.

I would also like it recognized that there is an opportunity to change the rules of this parliament and this House by deeming that all private members' business which comes forward will be deemed votable and that each member, whether they be on the government side or on the opposition side, be given the opportunity to put forward their own opinions as to what should be done with respect to legislation for this country.

I will begin the debate today with an excerpt from a letter that was sent to the minister of agriculture on February 15, 1999, from the national safety nets advisory committee during the negotiations surrounding the infamous AIDA program. The excerpt states:

The majority of the National Safety Nets Advisory Committee would like to express its disagreement with Agriculture Canada and provincial governments regarding the changes they intend to make to the Farm Income Disaster Program. The committee does not support the program as it is currently designed—We are seriously concerned about the precedents which these decisions set on for the next round of the Safety Net negotiations. The program as designed now no longer provides sufficient support to farmers facing a crisis.

If only the minister of agriculture actually had listened and acted on the words of the committee perhaps he would not have faced the severe criticism he had with respect to the AIDA program.

The minister dropped the ball on the design and delivery of the AIDA program so badly that the producers and the producer groups have completely lost trust and faith in the minister and this government's commitment to agriculture.

Having said that, an advisory committee can work in the future if it includes representation from all three levels, federal, provincial and stakeholders, and is given more power in the decision making process. Bill C-263 would do exactly that.

Whether it is the ice storm of January 1998, the floods in Manitoba in 1997 and in 1999 in my area the Saguenay, the droughts in Nova Scotia, or the potential droughts in Alberta, any of those should have assistance attached to them in some form of a disaster program.

When natural disasters occur through weather, pests, or agricultural losses through falling commodity prices, the federal government must take a more proactive rather than reactive approach and start developing policies in advance which would benefit our producers in good times and bad, not the ad hoc programs that we have seen come from this government.

The purpose of my private member's bill is to help the government in doing just that. The bill would create a committee that would assist the minister of agriculture in developing policies and procedures to ensure the co-ordination between different government authorities with respect to the delivery of information assistance, relief and compensation. The committee would monitor situations on an ongoing basis and discuss what income protection measures are available to farmers in the event of disaster or unusual conditions caused by weather or pests, taking into account such areas as crop insurance, flood and drought protection programs and NISA.

The committee's mandate is expected to monitor the effects of low commodity prices on the agricultural industry and the primary producers' farm income as well. The committee would also investigate and advise the minister on the compliance of any income assistance programs with the WTO requirements.

The committee, with some teeth, would consist of 21 members. Three members would be nominated by the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food. One member would be nominated by the agriculture minister in each province. Five members would represent farmers and would be nominated by organizations representing farmers. Three members would represent the industry related to agriculture products and would be nominated by organizations representing those industries.

As members are aware, a national safety net advisory review committee exists right now. My bill is an extension of that committee. It would expand the role, power and membership of the committee and give the committee more teeth and more power. It would create a more permanent committee rather than simply ad hoc committees that are created at the whim of the minister.

Bill C-263 also speaks to more transparency and disclosure of information on safety net agreements. The bill specifically calls for all reports to be laid before parliament, not simply hid in the minister's office.

It is also important that we emphasize the word consistency when we talk about co-ordinating assistance programs. The committee would work toward alleviating any problems with achieving consistency in the delivery and co-ordination of assistance programs.

The biggest issue we have right now with any type of disaster program is that there is no consistency. When we talk about the ice storm in Quebec, a whole different set of rules and criteria are put forward by the ministry when it deals with those kinds of problems and disasters. When it deals with the Red River flood, programs that nobody knew about came out of the woodwork because it was an election year. Programs simply materialized. When I had the disaster in my area there were no programs but it was not an election year.

What disturbed my constituents the most was not the fact that the government forgot about them but that there was no consistency. If it had been an election year we would have had a different program as opposed to a program for a not very high profile disaster.

Southern Alberta has had absolutely no rain and is suffering from drought but that is not considered to be a high profile disaster. I suspect the programs that will come forward from the federal government in this instance will not have the same consistency as what was delivered to the Red River Valley or, for that matter, when the ice storms hit Quebec.

There must be consistency in determining the level of assistance. It should not simply be based on the amount of publicity a disaster gets. With the environmental and climatic changes that the country and the world are undergoing, it is vital now more than ever to monitor these issues on an ongoing basis and develop consistent policies that would help farmers deal with these changes both financially and socially.

We should be able to take a program off the shelf and develop it in committee. When it is developed and it describes and defines a disaster, we can make sure it also defines the programs that are associated with that disaster. We would make sure the definition matches and the program is in place. There would be no inconsistency, no ad hoc programs and no changes from disaster to disaster or from region to region.

It is important that there is a tripartite working group, as Bill C-263 suggests, to have input and share ideas on income protection for the farming community. What is needed now is federal leadership on this issue to ensure that this equity and fairness is achieved when we shape our future safety net framework.

We had a meeting today in committee that was attended by the agriculture ministers from Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. They reached consensus on 90% of what they had to say. They did not agree on some issues concerning the Canadian Wheat Board and on transportation but we will not go into that. However, what every one of them did agree on was that we need a long term, well thought out safety net program. I heard the same thing four years ago. The Manitoba agriculture minister said that we need a long term, well thought out program.

When I asked the question of those ministers and suggested that maybe it should be based on a GRIP model, they agreed. That is the model, by the way, that the government destroyed in 1995. The government took it away from farmers. Were it in place now, it would certainly be a different situation in the agriculture community.

They also said to a person that they would like to show the model of the ASRA program in Quebec, that they would like to start it as the model and build from that. When I suggested that there is quite a substantial amount of provincial expense associated with that program, they said to start with the model and then try to get the political will from the government to contribute to that model so that we could go forward with a safety net program that would actually work.

The bill would allow that to happen—

[Parliament Of Canada Act, June 5th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, thank you for your latitude. I do appreciate that.

As well as the Alliance Party, the Progressive Conservative Party will have a free, open, transparent and honest vote. How anyone votes on this issue remains to be seen because there is the wonderful little opt in clause, which in itself is terribly hypocritical.

The Bloc member who spoke said Bloc members would support this legislation. Good for them. However, I find it rather interesting that they always try to put a separatist spin on everything, and I never heard that spin this time. They will take good Canadian cold hard cash and put it into their pockets. There is no separatist spin at all on this issue.

I know we will have an opportunity to vote and to speak to this matter many times again.

[Parliament Of Canada Act, June 5th, 2001]

We knew what the pay was. We have gone there already. The fact is we are in the month of June, soon to take a summer recess and all of a sudden in the legislation package it says to pay the people retroactive to January 1. That was not expected when we got elected on November 27. That was not even in the card nor was it suggested. Now all of a sudden there is retroactivity to January 1.

Here is the deal. Why do we not put a cap on it right now and let the legislation sit in limbo until we come back in the fall? Let people talk over the summer as to what we should or should not do and how we should handle it. Let us not have the retroactivity. Let us go through the summer and into the fall and talk about what it is the people of the country would like to see.

The opt in clause is possibly one of the most blatant, undemocratic positions the Prime Minister has ever taken. It shows the total gross arrogance of a government that has nothing but contempt for the opposition, as well as its own backbench MPs. What the Prime Minister is attempting to do is absolutely disreputable. Let me give members an example of what I mean.

The Prime Minister is telling members that if they do not support his position, this is not a even government position, he is prepared, as being the lord of the land, to take the increase away. Some members will be paid less than other members who sit on that side of the House. There will be a two tier level of MPs.

The member from Moose Mountain said he works hard. However, 90% of members of the House work equally as hard as he does. I will not mention the names of the remaining 10%, but they are usually on the government side. I will not go any further than that.

Ninety per cent of the members in the House work diligently and hard on behalf of their constituents. Now the Prime Minister, in his arrogant way, is telling members that if they do not vote the way he tells them to vote, they will not get the same as what others on that side of the House will get. That is absolutely terrible. That is absolutely dishonest to the Canadian public. It should not happen. The next time that party goes to the polls I hope that it happens—

[Parliament Of Canada Act, June 5th, 2001]

Mr. Speaker, I sat in the House most of the day and listened to the debate on Bill C-28. I particularly enjoyed the speech made by the hon. member for Souris—Moose Mountain.

I have empathy with him because I can suggest to the hon. member for Souris—Moose Mountain that when I put my name forward and was elected on November 27 for the second time never was this an election issue. I remember debating quite frequently with candidates from the Liberal side of the House. Never did they ever put forward the suggestion that one of the first orders of business on coming to the House would be to look at members' pay packets and to put forward some compensation changes.

We talked about health care and agriculture. In my case we talked about defence and the possibility of the PPCLI coming to Shilo. We talked about all major issues that were necessary during an election campaign but not once did the topic of members' compensation packages come up.

I mention that because I appreciate what the hon. member for Souris—Moose Mountain is saying and what the government is doing, particularly the Prime Minister. He should take full responsibility because he is putting the hon. member and other hon. members not only on this side of the House but on that side of the House in a very difficult position.

Our party has said, and I will get into my own personal circumstance later, that it was unfair to put members of parliament in the position of voting on their own compensation packages for the same reasons the member just articulated. We said that if we were going to put together a reasonable pay package or compensation package for members of parliament, it should be done for the next parliament.

Let us have the studies, let us have the suggestions as to what a reasonable amount of money is for members of parliament and put that forward in the next parliament, so that when we sit on the podium and debate the issues we know that everyone is equal, we know that the next decision has already been made and that is what one is trying to attain.

When I ran for parliament I knew what the compensation was and I was happy with it. By the way, surprisingly enough, I am still happy with that compensation.

I said the party position was that we should do it for the next parliament. I had a previous life and was a politician in that life. I lived by that rule. Unfortunately or fortunately, whichever way one may look at it, it did not quite work out that way.

On principle I also said not to give me a raise in my capacity as mayor, but if people wanted to attract someone to replace me in the next election, then put that forward in the next campaign and in the next election. My council of the day decided that that was not going to happen and it was passed by my council on my behalf. Yes, I took it because I felt that it was something the council wished to put into legislation. It was accepted.

Honestly, in principle, I still believe it should be for the next parliament. Then the hon. member from Souris—Moose Mountain would not be put in this position, would not have to vote no against it, would not have to say he was not going to take it and become in my mind a lesser member of parliament than members on the backbench of the Liberals. There will be a two tier system and we will talk about it later. However, first we should do is make the decision now for the next parliament, not for this parliament.

We also have in this piece of legislation a suggestion that committee chairs should be compensated for their jobs. I have thought about this quite often actually, because there are different levels of compensation for different levels of responsibility. I might even accept that but for the fact that those chairs are appointed by the Prime Minister. There is no open and honest election. In fact we tried that. I know the Alliance Party suggested that there should be at the very least a secret ballot, and there should be.

I have a lot of good faith with committee work. I think committees could work extremely well and probably better than they are now if there were a less partisan member sitting as the chair of a committee. Let us have secret ballots. Let us have, goodness gracious, the possibility of a member of the opposition sitting as the chair, as opposed to the chair having to be a member of the government. That is shocking.

Would it not be wonderful if we could have a member of the opposition as the chair of a committee? Then the committee could operate as a true committee, not as one that is being tailored either by the minister's hand or by the Prime Minister's hand. Again, I and my party do not accept the fact that there should be additional compensation for the chair unless it is an open, honest and true election for the chair of a particular committee.

I think it was mentioned earlier in debate, but we also believe there should not be any retroactivity. We were elected on November 27.

[Patent Act, June 5th, 2001]

The Liberals are hypocrites.