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Crucial Fact

  • His favourite word was reform.

Last in Parliament September 2002, as Liberal MP for Saint Boniface (Manitoba)

Won his last election, in 2000, with 52% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Constitutional Amendments Act November 30th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, I would like to start my speech by looking at the situation in which we now find ourselves. I think that Canadians, including Quebecers, have a better understanding of the role played by the Prime Minister of Canada and his government. They understood it yesterday and they understand it even better today.

If we look at the current situation, we have on one side the Bloc Quebecois, which wants to separate. They use words like "sovereignty" but we know that it really means separation. No wonder they refuse to even look at this proposal, to review it, to consider the possibilities. No. What they want is their own country, period, no negotiations, no flexibility, no open mind, no nothing.

On the other side-as Canadians can see-is the other extreme. All they have to say about the government's proposals is, "No, no, no, they are giving too much to Quebec and Quebecers". I find this alarming. The two extremes here in this House refuse to make any efforts to consider what the government is proposing.

I mentioned in the House yesterday that I had checked Maclean's of 1989. In one edition in a specific article the leader of the third party suggested that distinct society had certain possibilities. In fact he stated quite clearly that words were not important if people really wanted to get together and work things out. That is what is said in that article.

All of a sudden, no. Why would he think that in 1989 and have no openness today? It is quite clear. From his perspective and that of his advisers there appears to be an opportunity for his particular party, his particular view of Canada, his particular set of policies. Is it Canada first? Absolutely not. It is the party first and whatever happens to Canada, so be it. I find that most unfortunate.

It is also interesting that the question of the regional veto is also one that the Reform members have supported. They want a regional veto to stop certain amendments. Did you know that, Mr. Speaker? I have found that most interesting.

All of a sudden when we propose a veto that does not make a constitutional change, which would give additional protection to the provinces, which adds and does not take anything away, do you think Reform members would explain it that way? Would they attempt to talk with Canadians and say: "Look, this is not necessarily what we wanted exactly but we have a proposal that is not terribly dissimilar to this?" Of course not. Why not? Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker. It is quite simple. Again, it is their political agenda. It is their political party that comes first, not Canada. That is unfortunate.

That is why some people see them as two sides of the same coin; that is, we have one party that clearly states-

"We want to separate from Canada. We want our own country".

-and the other party that tries everything in order to crush, to deride, to set aside, not to look at openly, the proposals that are being made by the Prime Minister and the Government of Canada.

Their policies hold a lot of contradictions. They suggest that they do not want this regional veto, but they have a regional veto on their books. They want one for B.C. but not for Alberta. The last time I checked they were pretty close in population. I guess that is what they want, I do not know. Perhaps they want one for all of the provinces. Perhaps they do not know what they want.

I now come back to the issue of distinct society. Distinct is defined as including the language, culture and institutions unique to Quebec. I find this quite commendable and acceptable. Like the vast majority of Canadians, if they made an error in judgment, they will soon find out.

What is interesting, as you know, is that we now need unanimity on a number of issues to amend the Constitution. Nothing can be changed without the provinces' unanimous consent on a number of issues, on which I will elaborate later.

There is another clause providing that no changes can be made without the consent of seven provinces representing 50 per cent of the population. This bill deals mainly with the principle that the 7-50 formula cannot be implemented without the support of the four regions. These regions include Ontario, Quebec, western Canada-which means British Columbia and another province-, and the Atlantic provinces. This means two provinces representing 50 per cent of the total population.

What is really frustrating is knowing full well that the Constitution remains unchanged, that a little something extra has been given to everybody, that they already have a proposal in hand fostering this kind of veto and that they feel their party should come first, and the country second.

I would now like to use the little time remaining to answer the most commonly asked questions. "Why not table a constitutional amendment?", our constituents ask. But we know that the leader of the Parti Quebecois, the potential Premier of Quebec, has

already made it clear that he does not want any constitutional amendment. That is clear.

The purpose of this bill, on the heels of the Quebec referendum, is to show where the elected representatives of the Canadian people stand on this issue, and we will soon know it. We also know that the Constitution requires that a first ministers' conference on the amending formula for the Constitution of Canada be held by April 1997. Constitutional amendment proposals, if any, will be considered at that time. This bill would in fact bridge the gap until then.

There are other questions.

For example, what is covered and what sorts of future amendments would be blocked by this bill? The real impact will be on the amendments covered by the same seven and fifty rule, as I have mentioned, changes to the division of powers in favour of the provinces, changes to certain provisions relating to federal institutions, extensions or additions of provinces in some general amendments.

Another question that is frequently asked is how does this bill differ from what is already in the Constitution. This bill does not change the Constitution or the amending formula. They know that, but of course they are not going to say it. It simply indicates how the government will conduct itself with respect to its own veto. It is willing to loan out its veto. That is what it does.

There are significant vetoes already in the Constitution for provinces individually. For example, each province has a veto over matters requiring unanimity, such as the composition of the Supreme Court and the amending formula itself. Each province has a veto over any changes in its boundaries or the constitutional provisions specific to a province.

In addition, there is the right to opt out of amendments transferring provincial jurisdictions to Parliament and to receive reasonable compensation if the amendment pertains to education and other cultural matters. This gives another type of veto to a province.

The bill creates a regional veto, in effect, with respect to changes to national institutions such as the Senate and the Supreme Court, the creation of new provinces, and all amendments that transfer power from Parliament to the provinces.

Another question raised is whether the Constitution already provides provincial vetoes-does the bill provide for any double veto? There are all kinds of amendments whereby provinces already possess such a veto, such as changes to the composition of the Supreme Court or to the boundaries of a province. They are expressly exempted from the operation of the bill. So too are amendments from which provinces can opt out under subsection 38(3), those which derogate from provincial rights and powers expressly exempted through the operation of this bill.

Would the regional veto formula make it more difficult for Quebec to separate? One view of the constitutional amending formula as it stands now, which is a very common view, is that the consent of all provinces would be required for Quebec's separation.

How would the regional veto formula work in practice? This is a particularly important question because it is the very heart and soul of the issue. When at least six provinces, including Ontario and Quebec, two Atlantic provinces with over 50 per cent of the Atlantic population, and two western provinces with over 50 per cent of the western population have indicated their consent by resolution, referendum or government approval, et cetera, the federal government would be free to proceed with resolutions in the Senate and the House of Commons. If one or more of the regions fail to provide their requisite consent, the federal government would not proceed with resolutions, even though seven or more provinces with over 50 per cent of the population had adopted resolutions under the current amending formula to authorize the amendment.

We have talked about the kinds of combinations that would be required for western and Atlantic provinces to get a veto under the regional formula. I want to repeat this because I think it is important. In the Atlantic provinces, Nova Scotia and either New Brunswick or Newfoundland would have a veto. New Brunswick would be in the same position with either Nova Scotia or Newfoundland as would Newfoundland with either of the others. P.E.I. would not have a veto except in combination with two of the other three.

In the west, B.C. with any other province would have a veto. Alberta would have a veto with B.C. but not with either Saskatchewan or Manitoba alone. Saskatchewan and Manitoba together would not have a veto.

It is important to note that we are not dealing with a new veto. The bill only indicates how the existing veto is exercised at the federal level.

I am running out of time. That is unfortunate, because I would have had so much more to say. But I will conclude with, perhaps, one last comment.

As I pointed out at the beginning of my speech, these proposals concerning a distinct society, this bill and the right of veto are all part of an effort to build a better country, a country in which people work together and better understand each other.

Recognition Of Quebec As A Distinct Society November 29th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, during the referendum campaign, the Prime Minister promised to recognize Quebec as a distinct society. Now, he is putting forward new initiatives to fulfil his promise.

Unfortunately, the third party is once again putting its own political agenda ahead of Canada's by not supporting this initiative that will help preserve Canadian unity.

The third party's political manoeuvring is as apparent today as it was in 1989 when, in an article which appeared in Maclean's , the leader of that party compared the constitutional evolution of our country to horse trading. He was willing then to trade off the distinct society clause for something else. Clearly this form of trade off bargaining serves to create greater differences among the regions and the provinces instead of creating a sense of Canadian unity.

When will the leader of the Reform Party and his colleagues start putting Canada first as opposed to their own political fortunes?

Department Of Public Works And Government Services November 27th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, I am sorry. I was trying to speak through you to them. I shall make sure that I do so from here on in.

I will make a couple of comments as well with respect to contracts and sole sourcing. The preferred approach of the Department of Public Works and Government Services is always the competitive one. My colleagues know that. Why would they not have mentioned that?

They also know that there are good occasions and good reasons when we need to sole source. They know that. They also know that if we sole source, any supplier who feels qualified to meet the requirement can challenge the sole source award. They forgot to mention that. That is openness. That is transparency. Is it that they do not know or are they being mischievous?

It is interesting to note as well that advance contract award notices can be challenged. They are rarely challenged. What does that mean? That means that it is being done transparently. It is being done above board. I am really surprised that it would not have been mentioned.

I add as well that the House should also be reminded of other measures the Minister of Public Works and Government Services has taken to ensure integrity in the process. For example, all members of the House have been invited to subscribe to the open bidding system. I wonder if those who have been rather loquacious, vociferous and noisy today have done that.

The minister introduced the lobbyist certification clause. Do they know that? Do they know what it does? Probably not. An effective bid challenge process has been implemented in the department. Do they understand that? No, probably not. Contracting operations are subject to regular internal audits. That is another precaution. I cannot believe they would not share the positive as well as the questions they feel need to be addressed.

The Department of Public Works and Government Services holds supplier seminars across the country almost every day to make sure people are aware of what is happening. In this department small contracts are competed, contrary to the impression that was given, even contracts below the dollar threshold required by Treasury Board for competition. That was not said.

They did not talk about the transparency of the open bidding system. They have not said that for low dollar value procurements not advertised on the OBS the department uses an automated vendor rotation system which ensures equitable access to all suppliers of local commodity specific source lists of qualified

suppliers, another precaution. They did not mention that 75 per cent of suppliers subscribing to the OBS have 50 or fewer employees, which points out that small businesses take advantage of it.

We have no evidence of a trend for contract splitting in the department. The department statistics indicate a reduction in both the number of contracts under $30,000 and the number of contract amendments.

I thought we needed to set the record straight because either my colleagues have not done their work or they have done their work and choose to ignore the facts. Either one is unacceptable.

I get back to the specifics. It is my view that the amendment aims to address two issues related to the department's procurement activities: access to information on contracts and ensuring integrity in the procurement process. No one would argue that these are not worthy goals. Right now the department has mechanisms in place which address the same issues.

I am sure the members in opposition are familiar with Public Works and Government Services' efficient and rapid contract opportunity information dissemination system.

I am talking, obviously, about the Open Bidding System, the OBS. It is an electronic display panel providing information not only on opportunities for contracts over $25,000 for goods and over $60,000 for services, but on contracts already awarded. It provides details on the bid selected along with the name of the contractor and the amount of the contract.

The OBS gives its users, be they small or medium size businesses or members of Parliament, instant access to valuable information on procurement opportunities past and present.

If the goal of the member is to ensure that the system is fair, let me assure the House that many steps have already been taken by the minister and the department toward that goal. For instance, the Minister of Public Works and Government Services has taken positive steps to tighten up the manner in which the government awards contracts for advertising and public opinion research. This is a sensitive area, one in which the actions of the previous government have come under serious criticism. The minister has also moved to curb the potential influence that lobbyists could bring to bear on the contracting process.

All contracts awarded by Public Works and Government Services now include a clause requiring all firms to state that payment, in full or in part, of services rendered by all lobbyists hired to obtain the contract depends neither directly nor indirectly on the client's being awarded the contract.

In other words, conditional payment of honoraria to lobbyists is prohibited. As the result of these amendments, Treasury Board now requires all departments to prohibit contractors from paying their lobbyists conditionally.

If it is accountability that the member is concerned about, the function of procurement or contracting out is almost certainly the most closely scrutinized responsibility of the minister and Department of Public Works and Government Services. The contracting process is subject to the department's own rules and procedures; to Treasury Board regulations and guidelines; to scrutiny by cabinet and the auditor general; and of course, by the media and the Canadian public.

An emphasis on fair and open competition goes to the very heart of the drive for economic growth and renewal in this country. Fair competition encourages firms to strive for greater efficiency and to look for innovative ways of producing and delivering their goods and services.

These qualities are vital to the development of a strong and creative economy for Canada. It is therefore particularly important for the federal government to practice what it preaches in its own business operations.

By stressing competition, fairness, and openness in contracting, the government can help build a culture of excellence in this country and ensure the Canadian taxpayers get full value for their money. Passage of Bill C-52 and the creation of the Department of Public Works and Government Services will be a positive step in meeting this goal.

I will close by saying that I deplore this tendency we have of making unfounded accusations. I also deplore the tendency of exaggerating problems we have in government and I deplore the tendency of members not doing their homework before rising in the House.

Department Of Public Works And Government Services November 27th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to address Bill C-52, more particularly the proposed amendments to clause 20 put forward by the Bloc Quebecois member.

Before doing so, I would like to make a few comments. When my colleague from the Bloc referred to contracts, he forgot to mention that the number of contracts awarded in the past few years has remained essentially unchanged. True, their value has increased, but he is well aware that this is because of a number of major contracts that skewed the information. He knew this, but he did not say it.

What is interesting, is that one of the government committees, the Standing Committee on Government Operations, decided to take a look at the matter. When it called witnesses, do you know what was interesting? It was that people in the public service were already looking at this question. They were studying it because they were concerned as well. There you have it. It is quite interesting, but he neglected to mention it.

I also find it interesting that my colleague has made all sorts of unfounded accusations. He claims it is rotten, claims there is patronage everywhere and claims that we are handing out money here and there as if it grew on trees. Frankly, I find this exaggerated and unfortunate. And what about my colleague from the Reform Party?

He makes accusations too. He can make any kind of accusation. He does not have any proof. It does not really matter. The Reform Party has a lusting for power. It is lusting so terribly that it is saying some terribly silly things. It is so silly that Reformers are trailing the Tories in the polls. That is how silly it is and Canadians know it is silly. I invite them to continue to make comments. Every time they do it helps the Liberal Party. Would you stand and continue? You are doing a fine job to help us.

Department Of Public Works And Government Services November 27th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, this bill is a further safeguard to ensure that the government is committed to govern with integrity and will take every measure necessary to restore confidence in the institutions of government.

This bill is about public-private partnering. The Minister of Public Works and Government Services is committed to further investigation and development of a potential for partnering. He is working at building the kinds of partnerships and working arrangements which will be beneficial to the government, the business community and the people of Canada. This commitment is shared by the Prime Minister.

Bill C-52 is needed to allow the minister to fulfil his commitment to further investigate and develop the potential for beneficial public-private partnering and working arrangements as well. This bill is about the efficiency of the federation.

PWGSC is contributing to the efficiency of the federation initiatives in the area of shared government support services. Priority areas identified include infomatics, procurement and realty services. PWGSC is in the process of negotiating with the provinces and territories on shared government support services.

Bill C-52 will enhance efficiency of the federation initiatives in that it will simplify administrative processes, leading to sharing arrangements with other levels of government.

Bill C-52 is about good government and improving services. It is essential that we get on with this bill. I look forward to the support of my colleagues.

This bill is about responsible and responsive government. We have consulted extensively with the Association of Consulting Engineers of Canada, the ACEC, and have made every effort to accommodate the concerns of this special interest group.

We recognize that the issue raised is a very important one.

First, we have put forward two separate amendments to section 16 of the bill, one at committee stage clarifying that the department would only provide services outside the federal government at the request of another level of government or private sector firm.

The member for Guelph-Wellington has now also introduced an amendment stating that this will be done only after receiving governor in council approval.

Second, the minister has directed his department to undertake a comprehensive review of the levels of out-sourcing of the government's architectural and engineering requirements. For this review, a consultative committee comprised of industry, union and government representatives has been established to provide advice throughout all phases.

This study is now under way with a report expected in the spring.

As I just pointed out, we are merging departments. We are integrating, if you will, four former departments, and we are modernizing. We are responsive to the issues raised by a number of people and we are trying to be sensitive to their concerns. I believe this bill does just that.

Department Of Public Works And Government Services Act November 27th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to resume the debate.

When I heard my hon. colleague say this bill will somehow shake up or destroy the economic system of the nation, I think there is some exaggeration.

I heard my colleague say we are forcing businesses to pay taxes. My goodness, I think most businesses pay taxes rather willingly. Some have questioned some sections of the bill, but they have also acknowledged some of the meaningful changes that have been made.

When he suggests there ought to sober thinking here, I hope there is thinking and that the people who are doing the thinking are sober. If that is so, it would be sober thinking.

It has been almost a year since we debated this bill, as my colleague has pointed out. With Bill C-52, an act to establish the Department of Public Works and Government Services, four common service agencies are being integrated into one: Supply and Services Canada; Public Works Canada; the Translation Bureau and the Government Telecommunications Agency. The bill has a single and simple purpose, integration. The government is setting out a solid legislative process for integrating virtually all common service agencies within one organization. The result will be increased savings, efficiency and improvement in services for government, business and, most important, the Canadian taxpayer.

Through overlap and duplication reduction, system streamlining and expertise pooling, the cumulative savings for the Canadian taxpayer will be approximately $180 million by 1997-98.

We are talking here about integrating four former departments. We are talking about efficiency and about improving services to all Canadians. We are also talking about saving taxpayers' money.

Under this bill, the Minister of Public Works and Government Services will have the authority to provide services in several areas, including acquisition of material and services for other departments, printing and publishing, communications and translation, real property services, including the administering of federal real estate, realty services and architectural and engineering services, acting as a receiver general, providing administrative services such as management consulting, information services audit, accounting and financial management.

The authorities contained in Bill C-52 essentially reflect those contained in the legislation of the four components of government that are being amalgamated. However, changes were made to modernize the legislative responsibilities of the department and to ensure consistency across the newly amalgamated organizations.

The Public Works Act dates back to 1867 and the Supply and Services Act back to 1969.

We are merging four former departments. We take into account the legislation of these departments, of course, but we also modernize.

Bill C-52 is about savings, efficiency, improved services. The integration of virtually all common service agencies into one department is achieving savings, increasing efficiency and improving services by reducing overlap and duplication, streamlining systems and pooling expertise. This will ensure the most efficient and cost effective delivery of our services and generate significant savings for Canadians, savings I have indicated previously in the magnitude of $180 million annually.

As a result of budget and program review decisions, the department will reduce the workforce in five years by 5,263 full time equivalent positions, or by about 30 per cent of its current population. About 85 per cent of these reductions will occur by the end of 1997-1998 fiscal year.

This is about competition. The minister recognizes that more than ever the government has to be sensitive to the needs of the private sector and the real and legitimate concerns about unfair competition from the public sector. That is why the minister has moved swiftly to rectify the situation when specific examples of unfair competition have been brought to his attention.

In the case of architectural and engineering services, the minister has directed a review take place to determine the most cost effective means to deliver these types of services for the government as a whole.

A consultative committee has been established to guide this review, with representatives from industry associations and firms as well as union and government officials participating, including members of the Association of Consulting Engineers of Canada.

The minister has stated on several occasions that the department will not be allowed to compete against the private sector. This legislation will only be used by the department to support Canadian businesses to expand successfully, I might add, and to obtain a greater share of global markets, as well as to reduce overlapping duplication in all levels of government.

This bill has now the inclusion of a requirement for an order in council. The inclusion of a requirement for an order in council in section 16, proposed by the member for Guelph-Wellington, will ensure that the government obtain full direction from cabinet before the authority contained in this section is exercised and, therefore, ensuring accountability.

Public Service Of Canada November 27th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, I have already indicated that the first question was totally erroneous, that there is going to be savings over time.

With respect to the second question that if one privatizes or commercializes there would be a particular savings because people would earn less, we all know that sometimes it works that way but other times it is completely the opposite. In this case we are keeping those programs we need to keep. We are keeping those civil servants we need in order to give the best service to Canadians. In certain cases we are looking at alternatives which is a wise, sensible and sensitive way to proceed.

I am surprised that my colleague is not jumping up and down applauding the government for this wisdom.

Public Service Of Canada November 27th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, when the government initiated these programs it obviously went to the private sector to see what was being done there. Certainly what we are doing is very comparable to the private sector.

My colleague fails to understand there has been an initial rush on that program. There have been more people than expected. Yes, it may reach $2.3 billion, but during that same period of time $4.2 billion will be saved and $2.2 billion per year thereafter. That is a clear saving.

I am really quite surprised that my colleague would make such a charge. It is unfounded and completely incorrect.

Public Service November 27th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, the President of the Treasury Board has taken a special interest in the public service. He has outlined, both here in the House of Commons and in public, his vision of the public service and has been involved in a number of initiatives to raise morale, to try to work with these people. The President of the Treasury Board has also attended special events of all kinds.

The President of the Treasury Board has set up a secretariat to look at renewal in a profound way. He has set up an advisory council for change in order to do just that. He has hosted a series of meetings and has been involved in them in a hands on way. He has opened dialogue with everybody in the public service, including the frontline workers. He has sent a letter to his colleagues encouraging them to do the same.

Public Service November 24th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, first of all, we will be true to our fiscal commitments and operate within the established targets.

True, more people than expected indicated that they want to take advantage of the government offers. This simply shows that there will be more spending in the beginning, but we will be able to make up for all that. True, this could amount to almost $2.3 billion, but

at the same time, this will be offset by savings of $4.2 billion. Thereafter, $2.2 billion will be saved each year.

Concerning the public service, I am convinced we shall continue to have a service that reflects the needs of Canadians. Members well know that as a result of the program review we have had to reduce it, but we will continue to have a competent and committed civil service that will respond to the needs of Canadians.