Alex Shepherd

[Manganese Based Fuel Additives Act, October 28th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I do not mind being looked over but I do not want to be overlooked.

It gives me great pleasure to speak today on Bill C-29, the MMT legislation and the amendment thereto. Also, I would like to congratulate the Minister of the Environment for having the intestinal fortitude to reintroduce the bill before this legislature.

In Durham on a clear day, as the song goes, we can see forever. On a clear day in the summer sometimes we can see the CN Tower. This summer we saw less and less of the CN Tower as Toronto became smogged in.

People want to take responsibility for the environment and they want to do it in a number of different ways. Our automobile industry is addressing the real concerns people have about how the can take responsibility for the vehicles they drive and indeed in a lot of other industries as well. We have seen this in various areas, the packaging of products and so forth.

The automobile industry has been very responsive to the desire of people to have a clean and safe environment by a number of initiatives. It is moving toward alternative sources of fuel. We had

discussions in this House about the use of ethanol in our gasoline and there are other environmentally sensitive fuels available. In my riding General Motors is a major manufacturer employer and has been a leader in developing these kinds of technologies for its vehicles.

Recently I was surprised to learn that onboard diagnostic systems, which are state of the art, allow people to understand how their vehicles are performing relative to the pollutants.

Many years ago when catalytic converters were first introduced people said "how do we get them off our cars because they are affecting our fuel consumption?" People's attitudes have completely changed. Today that is not the attitude of a common person. People want to find out how they can be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

The automobile companies have wisely in their marketing systems realized this and that is why these onboard diagnostic systems exist. They give them the ability to know that their vehicles are performing as best they can and are not polluting the environment as much as possible with our current technology.

General Motors is disabling certain aspects of its onboard diagnostic systems for one very important reason. Manganese based fuel additives cause an 80 per cent residual within engines. As a consequence it creates a situation where the onboard diagnostic system does not work. Here we have a company which is recognizing the desire of people to have a safer and cleaner environment and producing technology to do that but which is unable to basically maintain that because of some of the fuel additives allowed in our gasoline.

There is an ongoing debate about manganese additives but it is the residual build-up within the engine that then turns around and basically makes the onboard diagnostic system not work. Part of that process is that if a catalytic converter is not working properly it should be replaced. People want to know that and those people want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

This legislation addresses that very real concern the average person has. I am surprised at the opposition to this from both opposition parties. I heard one of the Bloc members talk about bringing investment to this country. Some of the biggest investors in this country are the car manufacturing companies. In Ontario one out of six people can trace their jobs directly to automobile production. I am surprised that the Block has taken the position it has because similarly we have a significant plant in Sainte-Thérèse, Quebec that is also very interested in dealing with the desires of people to control the environment.

I was pleased to see Maureen Kempston-Darkes, president of the Canadian division of General Motors, announcing that her company and other car makers will introduce leading edge pollution control technologies to further reduce smog-causing emissions from automobiles.

They are not going to continue with that kind of research and development, they are not going to continue with those kinds of solutions to pollution if they do not get the assistance through people like us who will ban the use of MMT as a fuel additive. Clearly those vehicles are not going to perform up to their expectations as long as they have these components within the gasoline they produce.

In conclusion, I am very supportive of the MMT legislation, the banning of MMT. I believe the people of Durham desire to see alternate fuels and other technologies that companies like General Motors will develop to reduce fuel emissions and to create a cleaner air environment not only for us but for generations to come after us.

I look forward to the passage of this bill in all due haste.

[Bankruptcy And Insolvency Act, October 23rd, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I was late for the vote. Had I been on time I would have voted with my party.

[Bankruptcy And Insolvency Act, October 22nd, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to enter the debate on Bill C-5, an amendment to the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act and the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act.

Let me begin by saying that changing both these acts is an ongoing process. The minister, along with his officials, consulted very extensively on the insolvency business in Canada over a long period of time. All those consultations with stakeholders have come together and basically formulated this act. I believe it was an amendment by the member for Prince George-Bulkley Valley which was accepted by the committee.

I sit on that committee and there were almost 100 amendments made to this piece of legislation. It is something that the government initiated, industry has been involved in and something that all parties have participated in.

I would like to discuss some specific aspects of the bill but also a general concept of bankruptcies. The previous speaker mentioned rising consumer bankruptcies and he could not be more correct. I have a statement here showing that in January total business and personal bankruptcies were 7,320 compared to only 5,000 for the previous year. In February the total bankruptcies were 7,947 compared to only 5,900 for the previous year. In March the total was 7,775 compared to 7,100. We can see that there is no question that there is a trend line and it is upwards. A huge portion of this is consumer bankruptcies.

I also listen to the Reform Party from time to time talking about tax cuts and how it would stimulate demand. I would like to point out why I do not believe tax cuts would do that. The bottom line is that consumers are living in a sea of debt. As governments back in the 1980s and earlier did not match their spending with their income, neither have individuals.

It causes me great pain when I talk to some of the people in my riding who have mortgages on their houses and consumer debts well in excess of their ability to pay for them. Often those mortgages are well in excess of the value of the properties. There are many people who are caught up in a debt spiral. They are two income families and hardly ever see their kids. Some people work shifts and hardly ever see each other. They are caught in that debt spiral and are not breaking out of it.

As a government we should be concerned about how that happened and what it means to the future. It will have a big impact on our policy directions here in Ottawa.

Another indication of this problem is the rise in the percentage of disposable income which is allocated to fixed debt payments. By disposable income I mean the amount of the take home cheque after taxes have been deducted. The percentage of that income which is now allocated to fixed debts in Canada has risen dramatically.

In 1980 the figure was 71 per cent, in 1981, 65 per cent. By 1989 it was up to 74 per cent; in 1990, 80 per cent; in 1992, 85 per cent; 1993, 88 per cent; 1995, 93 per cent; and in the second quarter of 1996, 94.3 per cent. This is a clear indication that there is a problem. There is rising personal debt and people are caught on a treadmill trying to get out of this.

It shows up in many other areas of our economy. I saw an article in the newspaper today about consumer retail sales for this Christmas. A survey done by Arthur Andersen basically shows a lack of optimism. Retailers do not believe they are going to have a very good Christmas this year. That is part and parcel of the same problem.

For registered retirement savings plans, while last year was a good one in quantum, in fact the percentage of people who had available funds relative to their income to contribute to RRSPs went down. In other words people are saying that they do not have any money.

Bad debt losses in Canada relative to consumer debt are rising. Some people do not think that is alarming, but in Canada that represents 1 per cent. In other words 1 per cent of total consumer credit card debts outstanding every year are delinquent.

Some people like to look at the United States to see certain future trends. In the United States consumer debt delinquencies are now up to 5.7 per cent. It has become a whole business on how to deal with debt in that country. It should also be noted that the banks are getting out of the debt business directly. They have actually been able to factor out their consumer card business. In other words, they create the debt and then they factor it out to other companies to collect it.

Industries are popping up in the United States finding different and intrinsic ways of getting people into debt. There are credit card companies that deal almost exclusively with the poor, people who are high credit risks. Do we do that in Canada?

I am amazed when our young people show up at university or community colleges and one of the first things put into their hands is a consumer kit. This so-called consumer kit is a composite of 5 or 10 credit cards, one from a bank and others usually from a number of retail stores and gasoline companies. These people have very low earning power.

I am not saying that university students are incompetent or unable to deal with their debt and deficit problems. However, it is clear when we talk to credit counsellors that it is a rising problem in this town. They tell us that the percentage of university students coming through their doors for their counselling services is rising.

What are our institutions doing to be responsible for creating this problem? General Motors is a big feature in my riding. I am hoping very much that they will get back to work pretty soon. It has a tremendous impact on business in Durham.

Be that as it may, another interesting observation from General Motors in its marketing procedures is that its market in Canada is shrinking, as car markets generally in Canada are shrinking. Not only are they shrinking but the type of cars Canadian consumers are buying is significantly different from what they were buying even 10 years ago. They are smaller dollar purchase items, even compared to their American cousins to the south.

We are seeing a tendency where people have less liquidity, less ability to consume. I suspect if there are tax cuts, and the province of Ontario has already done that, I do not see any change in consumer demand. The bottom line is those people will take the money, and justifiably so, and pay it against the debts they already have.

I should bring to the fore the recent report of the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions. This gentleman's job is to supervise financial institutions. His report is very interesting. In it he states that levels of household debt reached an all time high in 1995-96 but they have not appeared to have plateaued. Both consumer and business bankruptcies increased in 1995. Mortgage and credit cards at real levels, though low in his estimation, began to climb. Despite improving profitability and capital levels, and he is talking about financial institutions, the risk profiles of some financial institutions increased as they expanded beyond their core activities into new lines of business.

I suggest that those new lines of business are consumer credit and also paper currency transactions, derivative markets and so forth. I will get to that later in my dissertation.

Some of the macroeconomics belie the real problem that lies beneath these statistics. We have an intergenerational problem. Almost 33 per cent of our population is now considered to be baby boomers. I suggest that the baby boomers in some small way are consumed out. They may well have had their two cars in their driveway. They already have a television, a VCR and all the good stuff that goes with the good life. The bottom line is they do not really need a lot more. They may even have their houses paid off.

There is another group whom I would consider above middle income, maybe around 35 years old who are basically on the debt treadmill. Also the younger generation coming behind that group seems to be copying the same basic tendency.

This bill talks about Canada student loans. The Government of Canada has over $1 billion in defaulted student loans. Undoubtedly some abuse is taking place where people declare bankruptcy so they can wipe off their loans before they start to work. This bill deals with that problem. It requires a two year stay prior to those people declaring bankruptcy. If within that two year period they have a job and so forth, they are able to pay off the debt and well they should.

The issue is somewhat larger than the bill actually deals with. That is, why is it that these young people are being persuaded into debt which they basically cannot sustain? It is not just student loans. It is also the consumer credit card. What is wrong with consumer credit cards? Absolutely nothing. If you want to give your daughter a credit card so she can come home on the weekends from university and she just uses it for that, you pay it off, fine, it is a convenience.

Most people see us moving toward a cashless society with more convenience in business transactions. I applaud that. I do not think I have actually stood in front of a teller in about a year and a half. Some people still like standing in line and talking to people in their communities and I understand that issue as well. For a lot of people it is a convenience and financial institutions are addressing some of that demand, but along with that, we are developing a second scenario.

People are being constantly pushed more and more into living beyond their means, quite frankly. They are told that they can do this, that all they have to do is have a credit card. The question is, do lending institutions check for total credit exposure? What do I mean by that?

That credit card chit I talked about probably gave the individual up to $800 worth of credit. It does not take a lot of intuitiveness to see that if you pay your $20 a month, you can probably jump that up and keep on jumping it up. Worse than that, within the credit industry there does not seem to be a system of cross-checks in this country. In other words, it is possible for that student to get $10,000, $15,000 or $20,000, way beyond their ability to pay without a lot of checks going on within the financial institution structure itself.

What do the banks do in a situation like that? They say: "Well that is too bad. I guess that is one we lost on. We will just charge that to the good customers". It is incredible to watch the deviation in interest rates between the prime bank lending rate and credit cards.

Industry Canada put out a statement for the month of September. The spread between the Bank of Canada credit card rate, currently 4.25 per cent, and the sample VISA card tracked by Industry Canada has continued to increase on average since 1994. We all know that interest rates have been declining. It is currently 13.25 percentage points compared to its average of 8.9 per cent, the difference between the prime bank lending rate and what people are being charged on their credit cards. The spreads between the bank rate and standard rates presently range between 11.65 and 14.65

points while the spread between the bank rate and the retail card rate is 24.55 per cent.

What am I saying? Basically, interest rates are going down and the actual credit card costs are going up. How do banks explain that to the public? They explain it by saying they have rising consumer bankruptcies. It is a self-fulfilling prophesy. They advanced more money. They did not really spend a lot of time on how they advanced it because they wanted to get that interest rate up there to pump the bottom line showing an increased profitability. At the same time, when they take a hit on it, they apply it to everybody and charge them more interest.

It is a great system, but it is not in the best interests of the consuming public. I do not think it is in the best interests of public policy.

Some of the European countries deal with this. In some of the European countries, if there is a credit card default and it can be proved that they did not check with other institutions to see the total quantum of debt, they cannot collect it. In other words, we should be taking those debts off the bottom line of those banks, not allowing them to charge them within the interest rate structure where everybody pays for them. That would do a lot to reduce the number of bankruptcies in Canada.

We want financial institutions to take responsibility for the lending that they make. It is not good enough just to take a shotgun approach to the industry and say: "Who cares about any of those who fall by the wayside? We are going to get the other guys to pay for them and we will still make lots of money". This is what is wrong with the banking industry in Canada.

One of my major interests here is small and medium size businesses. We all know that small and medium size businesses have complained constantly about their ability to access credit. Someone who has a good idea goes to the bank. The bank says it is not interested because that person is a small business operator. This has improved marginally but not very significantly.

I note that the banks are coming before us again with their quarterly statistical report. There has not been in quantum much change in the total amounts of money advanced to small and medium size business.

More remarkable, a study which the banks themselves had done trying to show how effectively they were dealing with small and medium size businesses identified that 44 per cent of all small business operators look on consumer credit card debt as a source of financing for their businesses. That is profound. In other words, people who cannot get normal bank loans to run their business are having to run it up on consumer card debt.

This happened in my office recently. A gentleman came in with a good idea for fixing computers. He had no debts, his house was paid for and he had assets. He had gone to the bank to borrow $20,000 and the bank manager told him he was not interested. I told him to go back to that bank and tell the manager he wanted $20,000 on his credit card. He got the $20,000.

The banks are changing their whole attitude toward small business lending. They are going to make them all on credit cards. They are saying that anybody with $50,000 or under will have a credit card system. The bank will not check the financial statements every year because they really cannot be bothered. What the banks are not telling the borrower is he or she will pay a minimum of prime plus 3 per cent on loans.

The point I am trying to make is that banks are a major part of the bankruptcy problem and they are a major part of the problem of creating jobs. The banks, banking institutions and other financial institutions have gone into the business of paper transactions. The major growth in the financial sector is in derivatives. These are all paper transactions that occur on Bay Street or somewhere in Paris or New York. This does not mean much to the average person who has a good idea, who wants to develop a product that consumers can use and will employ more people.

We need a different attitude toward how we lend. We have to lend responsibly but also have to lend on the brainpower of Canadians.

A number of major changes have been made to the bankruptcy act which are important. We have underpinned the concept of remediation rather than forcing people into bankruptcy. I am apologetic to some of my colleagues in the bankruptcy industry that promotes bankruptcy. It is a big business now. You can hear the jingles on the radio: "Come down here, we will solve all your credit problems". We have to stop that. We have to move toward greater accountability, financial responsibility by our financial institutions toward small and medium sized businesses and the young people who are in debt way beyond their means.

[Administrative Tribunals (Remedial And Disciplinary Measures) Act, October 21st, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, to be honest with the member, yes it would be.

One of the big problems in this country is duplication and overlap. However it takes two to duplicate so we are talking about provincial and federal jurisdictions.

We have to analyse those areas where the federal government can be more efficient. It makes sense in the area of drug certification that one government, the federal government, should provide that service. I have heard some of my Bloc colleagues talk about how important it is. I do not think the afflictions that affect human beings stop at borders.

The bottom line is that from a national perspective we should set national standards. We have been all too lax at not doing that and letting these things slip away from us. That is part of the reason why this country is slipping away from us as well.

[Administrative Tribunals (Remedial And Disciplinary Measures) Act, October 21st, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for York North.

I listened with interest to the hon. member for Fraser Valley East. The Reform Party has moved this debate along quite a ways today. We started off with the hon. member for St. Albert saying that the 271 governor in council appointments were a poor choice and in fact do not exist. The hon. member for Fraser Valley East said it was a good thing. We can see that there is a great dichotomy within the Reform Party itself.

The member talked about his fresh start campaign. I was shocked to watch this unfold on television the other day. My campaign buttons and material in the last federal election said we were the fresh start team. In fact, everybody was met at the door for the fresh start campaign in 1993. That gives us an idea of what kind of imagination the Reform Party has. It thrashes out old ideas. We

are on the fresh start team. This is the fresh start team on this side of the House.

The member for Fraser Valley East talked about their vision of Canada. There has been debate going back and forth this evening on that subject. The conclusion is the Reform Party would like to lead us into a cheque book government. In other words, up here in Ottawa all we would do is collect money and send cheques to the provinces. That would leave us with some limited responsibilities in international trade, the coast guard and so forth, but not much of a government. That is not a vision, that is a fragmentation of the country. It would lead us into a country of ten separate governments.

I had a discussion late last week with pharmaceutical companies which told me that Canada is very much like the European Union. Drugs must be approved by the federal government and then it takes another three years to have them approved by the provinces. There is a cost to the consumers of Canada. It is one of the reasons drug costs are so high.

Under the Reform Party's administration we would continue to have ten strong decentralized governments, creating ten duplications across the nation. We should be moving in the other direction.

Bill C-49 basically attempts to standardize remedial and disciplinary measures in certain tribunals of Canada and to standardize chairpersons in administration tribunals. It also winds up seven organizations and downsizes another 13 organizations.

The object of the exercise is not to make the government smaller, although that is one of the results of some of our downsizing efforts; the object of the exercise is to do two things, to make government more efficient and to make government more affordable to the taxpayers of Canada.

The taxpayers of Canada are telling us in no uncertain terms that government is too big. It is too big and unresponsive to their needs and concerns.

This bill is a focus on how our government is reacting to the very real concern of the average Canadian. It does reduce certain tribunals but, more important, it begs one question. The question is who are the customers. Are the customers the bureaucracy or the public?

The bottom line is by also dealing with the concept of remedial and disciplinary action, the government is addressing a very real and important issue. People want to see that governments are responsive. They do not want them responsive to bureaucrats but instead to their concerns.

The current issue with tribunals is that it is very difficult to remove people from tribunals for wrongdoing. Indeed, it takes a legal process and it also has to go before the exchequer court of Canada. This bill will make that system a lot easier.

There is nothing worse than having a tribunal with people on it, possibly giving erroneous advice and making erroneous decisions. We want the ability of government to be able to replace those people. It is that issue that this bill is addressing.

That is very important because throughout government people are asking how government is responding to people. There is a great parallel to this, small and medium size businesses.

Small and medium size businesses have had to learn to work smarter. They have had to learn that the customer is very important. We have to satisfy the needs of the customer. To not recognize that is basically not to be in business at all.

Governments in some ways, while not a business, have to act a little more like them. They have to be more responsive to the needs of people. Let me give an example.

In my riding I have Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. When I first got elected I went around visiting all the federal institutions in my riding and those that service my riding to see what they were doing.

I was surprised that a lot of them did not have Canadian flags and we are working to make sure they now have. One organization struck me in particular, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

It had just implemented a total quality management system. This was totally unlike most other parts of government because it required a response time. If somebody phoned, it had to return that call within so many minutes.

If it was an application for a mortgage loan, it had to be answered within a certain timeframe. There were timeframes for everything it did. The people were very rejuvenated about what it was doing. It was very happy and very focused on executing programs that people liked. It recognized that the customer was the general public.

I have been very happy to work with those people in delivering some of their programs to some of the people in my riding. The point I am trying to make is that Bill C-49 addresses that issue. It allows the government through its various boards and directives to replace people if they are not in sync with best interests of people generally.

This gets us back to accountability in government. Generally speaking, people want the government to be accountable to them. They are asking for a more clear, transparent system of government.

Once again, this legislation deals with that issue. Remember that one of the things we are doing here is reducing the cost of government by upwards of $5 million per year. That may seem like a small amount of money but it is part of the process.

We are doing two things. We are reducing the cost of government and making it more efficient. Just because we are making government smaller does not mean we are making it worse. The bottom line is that we can deliver these programs a lot more efficiently using technological advances that we have before us and at a lower cost.

The services that governments once did can continue at a lower cost and with fewer individuals involved in the process.

I notice from time to time the opposition has said that we have not done anything in terms of cost reduction. Forty-five thousand civil servants have been shed from this process. CN is no longer a federal government owned organization. Some of my colleagues mentioned the CBC. All of these are real things that affect people. People are demanding better service at less cost.

I say to the Reform members and others that we are reducing the cost of government but at the same time making our program delivery more efficient.

[Pledge Of Allegiance, October 9th, 1996]

Madam Speaker, I think the previous speaker has missed the whole point of this debate. The bottom line is that the flag is not about pigment, about cloth. It is about the symbol of our nation. The flag is Canada. For that reason, I will not get into discussing some of the issues he raised in his speech.

I thank the member for Carleton-Charlotte for bringing this matter to our attention. The people of Durham have been very supportive of the fly the flag campaign. Indeed, over 7,000 flags have been distributed to the people of Durham.

When the member for Carleton-Charlotte was talking about his own speaking engagements in his riding, I got to thinking about my wife and myself. We have two cars on the road in the riding. We both have Canadian flags in the back of them. They are paper flags. Every time we go to an event, we make sure that all the kids have paper flags. It is a tremendous thing to go to Santa Claus parades and so forth and to be talking to people in a sea of Canadian flags. It makes me feel very proud to be part of this country, to know people love their country in that fashion.

I was most interested in the comments from the member for Bellechasse. These are some of the problems of our country. We do not really think of how far back in history it was that this nation was made. It does not just go back to 1948; it goes back much further than that.

Symbolism is a nation's struggle to define itself as a country. The member is quite right. From the time of Confederation in 1867 to 1965, Canada never really had a flag. We had many things that we called flags. The Cross of St. George flew on Labrador in 1749. The Fleur de Lys was accepted as a Canadian flag. There was the Union Jack and later the Red Ensign, but none of them were officially designated as a flag of Canada.

The French and the English have a common history in Canada. It was John Cabot that flew that flag of St. George on our eastern shores in 1497. It was Jacques Cartier that rose the Fleur de Lys in the Gaspé in 1534.

The Fleur de Lys interestingly enough is also a flag of another sovereign. The Fleur de Lys in reality is a monarchial symbol from France. It was a symbol of colonialism, no different from the Union Jack. That is why I question why the Fleur de Lys could possibly be the flag of another nation when by definition it is a colonial symbol.

The Maple Leaf has been with our country for many, many years, from the time of the first settlers. It was the first settlers who recognized the strength of the maple as it represented a source of food and furniture. In other words it was a sustenance of their existence in a new world.

The emblem was used in the early 1700s and it was proper and very prominent on very early coinage of Canada. It was the emblem of the St. Jean Baptiste society in New France in 1834. It

was in 1863 that Principal Dawson of McGill University incited it as the emblem of the vitality and energy of a new country.

That symbol has been carried into two wars. People have shed their blood on the Maple Leaf. It is now a symbol that is recognized around the world as Canada, not French Canada and not English Canada. By the way, people did not ask if those who shed that blood were French or English, it was the blood of Canadians.

I have been proud to wear this symbol every day that I have been in this House of Commons and I am proud to wear it when I go around the world. I know other Canadians are as well, including those in the province of Quebec. Canadians and people worldwide recognize Canada as a country of tolerance, as a country of people who democratically work out their problems as we are doing in this House.

The Maple Leaf has been an excellent symbol of what Canada is. It is a growing vital country with deep roots and its roots continue to grow. Its roots will continue to grow, not only in the maritimes of John Cabot and the Quebec of Jacques Cartier, but throughout this dominion from sea to sea to sea. Its branches are similar. We have branched out not only within our country to connect the people of this country together, but we have been able to branch out to the world. The world recognizes the Maple Leaf as a symbol of tolerance.

In closing I would like to state how important it is for a nation to have symbols. This is the symbol of a united and strong country. It can easily be adapted and should be the symbol of all people of Canada including those in Quebec because they are very much an open society and that is basically the country we have tried to create here. The Maple Leaf is very much a symbol of French Canada as it is a symbol of English Canada.

I thank the member for Carleton-Charlotte for bringing this matter before the House. He can be assured that I and the people of Durham are very supportive of his intentions.

[General Motors, October 4th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Labour.

Over 15,000 auto workers are now out on strike in Oshawa, Durham and Ste-Thérèse. Canadian auto workers feel they are being used as pawns in negotiations between General Motors and the United Auto Workers in the United States. The cars are made by Canadians; they do not want their agreements made in Detroit.

Will the minister tell Washington that Canadians demand made in Canada solutions to their labour problems?

[Foreign Debts, October 2nd, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

At a meeting this past weekend the minister agreed that Canada along with other countries would forgive certain debt to third world countries. At a time when Canadians are being asked to bear the burden of our own deficit and debt reduction measures, why are we forgiving other nations?

[Supply, September 30th, 1996]

Madam Speaker, I was very interested in the member's comments. The motion before the House today is basically criticizing the government for not taking into account and failing to recognize the people of the west coast generally. It also mentions the movement of grain. It talks about the movement of grain to the port of Prince Rupert.

I remember sitting in this House on a Sunday about a year ago when we had a rail strike in this country. The issue was that we were not going to move grain through the port of Prince Rupert because the rails were going to be strike bound. There were only 11 members of the Reform Party in this House at the time. Are they going to tell me that is a commitment to the west coast? I am afraid not.

[Supply, September 30th, 1996]

Madam Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to enter into this debate on the Reform Party's motion.

Some people will think it odd that the member for Durham, part of Ontario, possible home of General Motors, et cetera, would be speaking about an area on the west coast. However, I have some family members who are engaged in the west coast fisheries at Comox. I had the great pleasure in February of this year to go to Prince Rupert to talk to many business people and people engaged in government services, et cetera.

One interesting thing about Prince Rupert and the people who live there is that there was a certain degree of isolationism not just from the government in Ottawa but from their own provincial government in Victoria. I think the problem in our country is that many rural communities feel dislinked, for whatever reason, from our urban centres.

It is very important that we as a government find ways to bring those people together in a common cause. There has been a great deal of stress in our country because of a traumatic shift away from an east-west based economy to a north-south one. This is no less so for the people of Prince Rupert. I spent a good deal of time with these people and I have discovered that Prince Rupert has tremendous potential. It is clearly 35 hours closer to the Asian ports of Korea and Japan.

Many people spoke to me about the cost of shipping through the port of Prince Rupert and that grain could be shipped cheaper through the port of Prince Rupert except for a number of economic determinants which belittled that.

I was able to bring back some of the issues to Ottawa to have them addressed by the government. I am happy to see that as part of that process the minister responsible has recommended a task force to deal with the whole issue of Prince Rupert and the northwest transportation routes.

I spoke to some of the good friends I made in Prince Rupert and I discovered today that the task force has been travelling to places like Prince Rupert, Terrace, Smithers and that there has been little or no representation by the Reform Party.

It would appear to me that the Reform Party is not particularly interested in the process of renewal but rather wants to focus on regionalism and wants to try to divide the country by pitting region against region. That is not good enough. That is not the policy of the government because it sees the importance of linking all our communities together.

Members of the Reform Party talk incessantly about dismantling the Canadian Wheat Board. If that happens it will be the port of Prince Rupert and the people of that area of British Columbia who will be most devastated by that process. It will fractionalize the marketing of grain in this country. Right now the preference is to go through the port of Vancouver for a variety of economic reasons which I will get into. By breaking down the structure of the Canadian Wheat Board it will be even more devastating to the people of Prince Rupert.

The port of Prince Rupert grain handling system was partially closed down last year. I am happy to report that the terminal on Ridley Island and the Prince Rupert grain authority has opened again with an expected larger crop this year from the west.

It is interesting that the ability to load freighters in the port of Prince Rupert is a lot faster than at any other terminal on the west coast. We then end up with many ships waiting in the port of Vancouver to fill up when they could be moved more efficiently through the port of Prince Rupert. There are a number of reasons why this happens under the Crow rate system and also the rationalization of how CN charges freight rates.

They often do not properly account for the cost of grain cars which are held in storage prior to being unloaded. In fact, I believe there is a very nominal rental fee in their accounting system which works against the port of Prince Rupert. Even though the port of Prince Rupert technically is somewhat further away from the main transportation routes it can move the cars through the port much more quickly. The ships can be loaded and unloaded much more quickly which means that the shipper does not face demurrage charges and other charges by ships being anchored in the port waiting to be filled.

From all accounts the port of Prince Rupert should be the preferred port for grain shipments from the west. Why is it not? Because of the things I spoke of earlier. In addition, there is an ownership structure which exists within that terminal that is owned by the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool and Cargill and a number of other owners. Many people in the region note that one of the larger terminal shippings is owned by the same consortium in Delta. Some people wonder whether a different ownership would provide more competition in the area and create more business for Prince Rupert.

The Reform Party has been totally silent on this issue. It does not seem to be addressing these problems of major concern to the people of Prince Rupert and the hinterland of that area.

Coal is another big shipping item from the port of Prince Rupert. Much of that coal comes from Alberta. A lot of it could be shipped more efficiently through the port of Prince Rupert. Once again I do not hear the members from those parts of Alberta represented by

Reformers talking about how they could more efficiently move coal through the port of Prince Rupert. Indeed it would appear to me that the representation from the members in this area is almost silent.

I had some other interesting things happen to me when I was out there. People would talk to me about government problems and I was able to help some of those people. One of the issues was in a town called Port Edward. Mayor Wampler was having significant problems with the infrastructure spending program. The House will recall that the Reform Party never liked the infrastructure spending program. These people thought it was an excellent program.

The town of Port Edward is a town very close to Prince Rupert but it basically had no sewage treatment system. It was dumping its raw sewage into the ocean. It has wanted to deal with that for years and years to find some way to treat the sewage so it would not be a pollutant. The town had an arrangement with the local pulp mill. The pulp mill would allow it to use part of its sewage treatment system and upgrade it so it could treat the whole town. It made application for infrastructure spending money for that very purpose.

By the time I got there it was of some concern. The pulp mill had decided for one reason or another that it did not want the liability that went with that project and had withdrawn from the application. People in the town were very concerned. They thought that even though they had made an application under the program it was going to fall back to the bottom because the nature of it would change.

They wanted to create their own unique system and not use the pulp mill's facilities. They had found a way to do this for equal or less cost than in the original application. Because of the way the applications were, they felt that the province of British Columbia for whatever reason was going to not only delay their application but also put it at the back of the pecking order and therefore they would not be able to develop the system.

I was able to talk to some of the B.C. people who were dealing with the infrastructure spending program to get this rectified. I am happy to say that the mayor has come forward and thanked me for representing that area and getting the problem solved.

What I am saying is there is a real question about the issue the Reform Party is bringing forth today, which is basically that these people are not being represented by their own representatives. It seems to me that is the bottom line of what they are saying.

People in Prince Rupert and others on the west coast are very much part of this country. They want to continue to be part of this country. They want to share in what we have to offer as a government and they want to be plugged into the system.

There are many other problems that concern the people of Prince Rupert. As I said, with the grain handling aspect they have a tremendous potential. It is a port that is under utilized. As a government, we need to do more to recognize that our markets are in southeast Asia. The whole issue of trading with southeast Asia is an important feature and our government is very focused on that.

That is why we have implemented a task force to do just that, to go around and ask the people how they see their community and their economy evolving in the years ahead. I am happy to say we have had many many fine suggestions. I believe that the task force is to report very shortly on how to regenerate the economy of Prince Rupert and the whole northwest transportation route.

For the Reform Party to come here and say that we are ignoring the west is just two-faced. The reality is that in some ways it is not doing its own job of representing its own people.

I would like to thank all the people in Prince Rupert and on the west coast for their kind hospitality when I was there. They are some of the nicest people I have ever met and we continue to have a great friendship. I look forward to helping them in any manner I can in dealing with their government which is very much concerned about their issues, about their problems, about their continuation and about the underpinnings of their economy.