Martin Cauchon

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, June 3rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, we have to be careful and respect the Senate process. There are different stages. The bill is in the House of Commons at this point in time after which it will be referred to the Senate. The Senate will have to look at the bill. We will see what takes place at that time.

Bill C-15B is a good bill. It modernizes the existing sections of the criminal code and creates a definition of animals to increase penalties. As well it creates the new offence of viciously killing animals.

Let us proceed in the House of Commons and respect as well the process on the Senate side.

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, June 3rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, what a strange question.

With the legal framework we have in place and the existing legal process, I can guarantee that the bill will be applied in the normal way. The legislation will be applied to ensure that we achieve the aims and goals of Bill C-15B. At the same time we will make sure the industry will be kept involved through its normal activities regarding the use of animals.

It is important to mention once again that the Criminal Lawyers' Association was involved in the process regarding the question of subsection 8(3) to make sure that those defences that already exist will be taken into consideration under Bill C-15B. We made sure that a provision was created within the bill specifically referring to subsection 8(3) of the criminal code.

We are talking about common law defences which were there before. They are still there.

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, June 3rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, there is nothing to fear in regard to what has been raised. Let me refer to a previous question with regard to the system that exists in Canada. I do believe that with the system we have there is no way we will have abuse of the legislation. To be more precise, the hon. member should have a look at the legislation per se. I think it will offer to the industry a much more interesting protection in the sense that Bill C-15B is there in order to simplify the existing provisions within the criminal code so that parameters in the framework of the legislation will be clearer and easier to understand.

Once more, it is not there to go against the industry in any way, not at all. It is there in order to make sure that all people will better understand the legislation. As well, I would like to repeat for the industry that the defences that existed before are still there. To be more precise, we have been sure to add a clause within Bill C-15B in order to make a specific reference to subsection 8(3) of the criminal code in regard to criminal defences.

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, June 3rd, 2002]

Listen, I will read the following:

The committee heard from a wide variety of groups with diverse views on the issue of animal cruelty.

At the committee hearing the Criminal Lawyers' Association confirmed that removal of the animal cruelty provisions out of the property section would not cause accused persons to lose any available defences.

I think that this is clear enough. However, once again, to answer the various concerns, a provision to allow specific references to section 8(3) of the criminal code was added to the bill. I am referring to section 182.5 of Bill C-15B, which reads that:

For greater certainty, subsection 8(3) applies in respect of proceedings for an offence under this Part.

This seems clear enough.

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, June 3rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I fail to see why the question is being asked again.

I mentioned earlier that the criminal lawyers association approves of the government's approach.

Incidentally, there was—

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, June 3rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, if we know the justice system in Canada and the way it works, with regard to criminal law it is quite simple. We know that normally there is a police investigation with regard to criminal code offences. An attorney general has to make a decision in each and every case. We know that those people are experts. We do not foresee any abuse of the bill. The way Bill C-15B is drafted it offers all the protection for the industry. To be more precise, if we look at criminal code subsection 8(3), the bill offers the same defences that previously existed.

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, June 3rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, to put it quite simply, it is implicit in the bill. As we have said and as I have said many times, those who are carrying on lawful activities with regard to animals, respecting the framework of the bill, will not have any problem.

I would like to repeat what I said before. One of the aims and goals of Bill C-15B is to modernize the offences in the criminal code sections to make sure that we will be in line with much of the legislation that exists all over the world. The bill will make sure that we will be able to compare ourselves with some other countries. Honestly, another good point is that we are creating the definition of animal, which did not exist before.

I do believe that subsection 8(3) of the criminal code will give them all the defences they need. As to whether the defences that exist now will still be there with this brand new bill, the question has been raised many times, and the answer is yes.

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, June 3rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, with regard to the question on fish stocks, it is not part of my mandate and I therefore refer the hon. member to the minister responsible.

We all know that the bill before the House offers a balanced approach that respects existing activities and makes sure that we will keep protecting the animals. In the bill we essentially modernize the existing provisions of the criminal code. We make sure we have a definition of animal, which did not exist before. As I said, we also are creating a brand new offence of viciously killing.

Let me also repeat that the common law defences that exist in subsection 8(3) of the criminal code are there. Those defences existed before and they still exist.

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, June 3rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, section 429 of the criminal code was in place to provide general coverage for the various elements concerned by the category of property offences.

Essentially, what has to be understood is that section 429 did not provide an automatic defence and protection where cruelty to animals is concerned. What is important to understand now is that section 8(3) of the criminal code covers all defences. Thus all the defences available are therefore now in place within Bill C-15B.

I would, moreover, like to point out that the criminal lawyers association find this totally acceptable.

[An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, June 3rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, with regard to the question of time allocation, I think I was clear at the beginning of my involvement in the sense that we are talking about third reading, five days and 40 speakers, but it is 40 speakers at just this stage in the process. We can imagine how many people have talked about the bill in the past at the various stages that a bill has to go through.

The question is interesting because it gives me the opportunity to talk about the bill. As I said, we have to modernize the section within the criminal code. We also have to make sure that we put an end to the distinctions with regard to different types of animals within the criminal code. We are creating a definition of animal. We are raising the penalties with regard to sentencing, which is important. As well, we are creating a brand new offence, which is the one of viciously killing an animal.

We really need the bill and we have to proceed with it.