Martin Cauchon

[Child Protection, April 25th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I have answered that question many times over the past few days. The member is raising a serious and complex issue. There is no simple solution.

We have Bill C-15A which is pending before the House. Bill C-15A would create new offences with regard to the Internet. It is a step in the right direction. I will say exactly the same thing as the leader of the Alliance Party. We need to get involved in a good consultation process and we will do that with members of parliament.

[Child Protection, April 24th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday we essentially voted in order to make sure that when the government moves ahead to modify or add offences to the existing legislation that they will be declared valid by the Supreme Court of Canada if we have to go there.

We do of course need more consultation but we also need to take our time. In other words, we need to move ahead with a thorough consultation with the population and the stakeholders. That was exactly what was said yesterday and that is what we voted for.

[Child Protection, April 24th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, that member of parliament should be ashamed for asking such a question in the House. We said yesterday that all they wanted was to score cheap political points with a very serious issue. That is a good example.

The members of parliament on this side of the House will keep making sure that we will protect our children in this country and will keep making sure we work against child pornography.

As we said yesterday, this is a complex issue and we need consultation. As far as I am concerned, the leader of the Canadian Alliance has said the same thing.

[Child Protection, April 24th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for this very good question, indeed an important question. Indeed, for the government the protection of our children is a top priority, as well as for the members of parliament on this side of the House of course. We have been working on that. As a good example of what we have been doing, Bill C-15A creates more offences.

Of course we could not agree with the timing aspect of the motion yesterday because it is a complex issue. We need to proceed with more consultation. Indeed, we agree with what was said yesterday by the leader of the Canadian Alliance, that we need consultation. We are going to do it.

[Supply, April 23rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, as I said, the top priority is the protection of our children. We as a government want to ensure that we have effective tools in order to protect them.

When one looks at the charter, there are freedoms. There is also section 1. Section 1 is there to ensure that we will be able to have a look at the existing sections to see if we can tighten up those sections.

[Supply, April 23rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, the protection of our children is our top priority. As a government we will do whatever it takes to protect children.

In answer to the question raised by the hon. member I would like to refer to my main speech. There are different opinions and different points of view with regard to the way we should address the question of the age of consent.

I did not take any position. I raised the point in order to demonstrate that it is a complex issue. It is not as simple as the Canadian Alliance motion would like it to be. We are dealing with the criminal code that applies across the country.

[Supply, April 23rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, the question is clear. I will refer the hon. member to what I said in my previous answer.

Freedoms exist in the Canadian charter of rights but we must ensure that we put some flexibility into the charter in order to address some specific questions. Everyone in the House is against child pornography. The government and all members will continue to fight against it. What I find interesting is that we are always talking about a balanced approach.

As I said, if we want to touch on the question of freedom it is provided for within section 2 of the charter. Section 1 is helpful because we have to justify that what we are doing is okay within a free and democratic society. I believe that section 1 gives us the appropriate measures to allow us to make sure that we will be able to tighten up the existing provisions of the criminal code. We will have a look at it ensuring that we will be able to develop additional tools in order to keep protecting children in Canada.

[Supply, April 23rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, the question raised by the hon. member essentially touches two elements of this debate. The first is about the age of consent. In my main speech I pointed out the different views that people have on the topic as well as the different reasons why some people would like to raise the age of consent and why other people would like it to remain as it is.

The Canadian government and some provinces brought the topic to the federal, provincial and territorial meeting. I said in my main speech that some officials are looking into it at this point in time and will report back to see if we can reach a consensus around that question.

As the member said, it is a complex issue. We want to deal with the matter quickly but we want to ensure that it will respect our society in terms of where we are compared to other nations. Other nations have ages of consent of 15 and 16. We must have an overview of the entire situation. That is why we are recommending on this side that we should proceed with a good consultation period.

The second point, which is important as well, is the question of defence based on artistic merit. The government is actively looking into the existing section of the criminal code as well as the defences contained in those sections. I firmly believe that if we want to ensure we provide Canadians with an effective tool we should ensure that the section of the criminal code will be declared valid. We must respect the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

My point is quite simple. If we were to start infringing upon some freedoms that exist within the charter we would have to justify it based on section 1 of the charter. We have the room to manoeuvre to ensure that we continue to improve the existing tools within the criminal code and see if we could add to them.

[Supply, April 23rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in today's important debate on measures to protect children from sexual exploitation. I wish to confirm to the hon. members of the House the Government of Canada's very firm commitment to strengthen the protection afforded to children under criminal law against sexual exploitation and, in fact, against any form of victimization.

While I welcome debate on this very important issue, I find the opposition motion somewhat worrisome. This motion is to adopt immediate legislative provisions that would raise the age of consent to at least 16 years and included measures that would prohibit behaviour related to child pornography.

This motion contains a number of flaws. Legislation with such serious consequences must not be passed in haste. The issue of age of consent affects not only the criminal code, but also a number of provincial statutes. We would not be wise to adopt such an amendment hastily. It is my belief that the motion as it stands would not allow for a careful and thorough analysis.

The Department of Justice is in the process of undertaking public consultations and a comprehensive review of the need for further criminal law reforms to improve the protection of children. This consultation and review is based on four main areas.

First, should we amend the existing offences involving children, or create new ones? Are reforms necessary to better respond to physical and emotional abuse perpetrated against children, child neglect and child homicide, as well as sexual exploitation of children?

Second, should we amend the sentencing principles of the criminal code to guarantee that every sentence truly reflects the gravity of every offence committed against a child?

Third, should there be additional measures to better meet the specific needs and ability of victims who are children and who are witnesses in the criminal justice process?

And finally, fourth—and this is of paramount importance when it comes to today's debate—should the general minimum age of consent to sexual activity be maintained or raised?

In addition to the public consultation component of this project, the department consulted with provincial and territorial criminal justice officials, as well as with individuals involved in child protection, other experts, stakeholders and members of the public. These consultations were concluded last summer.

Federal, provincial and territorial ministers responsible for justice recently considered a summary of the results of these consultations at the February meeting. I am pleased to note that all ministers indicated their continuing shared commitment to work together to follow up on these consultations and review. We have directed federal, provincial and territorial senior officials to develop follow up options for our consideration in the coming months.

As I mentioned, one of the issues examined in this consultation is the general minimum age of consent to sexual activity. One of the reasons for the continued interest in the age of consent is the desire to better protect young people against those who seek to exploit them sexually and take advantage of their vulnerability.

However, it is important to mention that the protection now available under criminal law against the sexual exploitation of children is perhaps underestimated. I would therefore like to take this opportunity to provide some information about how the criminal law currently deals with the minimum age of consent to sexual activity.

First, it seems that some people mistakenly believe that the criminal law was amended in 1987 in order to lower the age of consent from 16 to 14. It is true that, at the time, the criminal code provisions on sexual violence against children were overhauled, strengthening and amending the protection of children against sexual violence, but these reform measures did not include lowering the age of consent.

The general minimum age of consent for individual sexual activity has been 14 years of age since 1890 when it was raised from 12 years of age. However, where the sexual activity is not individual, such as child prostitution or child pornography, or where it breaches a relationship of trust or dependence the age of consent is18.

I wish to reassure members of this House. Children are well protected against sexual violence by people in positions of trust, who could force them into the sex trade, and by people who produce or distribute child pornography.

Our existing criminal code is designed to eliminate child pornography, and our ability to prosecute such activities will be increased once Bill C-15A has received royal assent.

That having been said, the government recognizes that we must constantly re-evaluate existing measures for the protection of children against sexual exploitation.

The current opposition motion asks for “measures to prohibit the creation or use of” child pornography. These measures already exist. Making, printing, publishing, importing, distributing, selling or processing child pornography in Canada are offences. This seems fairly comprehensive but the government was not satisfied and in Bill C-15A it seeks to further strengthen our child pornography laws by creating four new offences: transmitting, making available, exporting and accessing.

These amendments are part of Canada's strategy to protect the children of the 21st century. The new offences have in part been introduced to put an end to the phenomenon involving the Internet. In addition to all the government programs aimed at promoting use of the net, we have also examined the Canadian legislation in order to ensure it is current and pertinent to this wired environment.

One of the key questions examined was child protection. To that end Canada has taken part both here and elsewhere in the negotiation of treaties and promotional programs with a view to raising children's awareness of the cyberworld and to protect them from its hazards.

Canada is involved in a transnational initiative aimed at countering the sexual exploitation of children. In the Council of Europe, Canada has taken part in negotiations for the convention on cybercrime, which includes provisions on child pornography along very much the same lines as our Canadian legislation.

Here in Canada, the main focus of such government initiatives as the strategy for safe, prudent and responsible use of the Internet, launched by the industry minister, the justice minister and the secretary of state responsible for multiculturalism this past February, is the protection of children.

In relation to the use of child pornography mentioned in the motion, the Supreme Court of Canada in the Sharpe decision found that the possession offence as it related to child pornography was constitutional, and thus possession of child pornography in Canada would remain a crime. However, in that decision, the court found it necessary to carve out two limited exceptions so that the offence would not be overly broad. The court was concerned about infringing on our constitutional right to freedom of expression and drew the line at prohibiting a person's own thoughts.

In this regard the court outlined when possession of child pornography was permissible. These limited exceptions are: any written material or visual representations created by the accused alone and held by the accused alone for his or her own personal use; and, any visual recording, created by or depicting the accused, provided it does not depict illegal sexual activity and is held by the accused exclusively for private use.

In addition to the exceptions set out in Sharpe, the criminal code contains other means of defence against child pornography offences, particularly when there is artistic merit or educational, scientific or medical value.

Recently there was a long debate in the House of Commons on the artistic merit defence. This defence was included in the legislative amendments which led to the creation of the child pornography provisions in 1993. Parliament in its wisdom saw fit to include defences applicable to child pornography related offences in order to ensure constitutionality.

I would like to take this opportunity to underscore the importance of the parliamentary process and the input of parliamentarians, and to state that the vigorous debate on this issue has made it apparent that many parliamentarians are concerned about how courts are interpreting artistic merit in the context of child pornography.

I understand the concerns relating to the artistic merit defence and as a father I can also relate to the motivation behind the opposition motion. As I stated before, such debates should be properly informed by the input of parliamentarians. With that in mind, I believe that this issue should be properly reviewed by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

The government is committed to the protection of children and on issues such as this, which all Canadians can relate to, we should avail ourselves of as many parliamentary tools as are available.

As far as the aspect of the motion addressing retention or changes to the current provisions on the legal general age of consent to sexual activity are concerned, I would like to point out just how numerous and complex the questions are, and that they clearly require a fine balance between the necessity of protecting young people from exploitation and the need to respect their developing independence.

Some call for the present age of consent to be maintained. They have a number of reasons for this. For example, that the motion calls for the age of consent to be raised in order to better protect children from sexual exploitation, yet the criminal code already bans the sexual exploitation of children. This objective could be achieved by applying the present criminal provisions more strictly as far as perpetrators are concerned, rather than restricting the rights and freedoms of young people.

The present age of consent provisions respect young people's freedom of choice, while providing sufficient protection against sexual exploitation by adults.

Youth engage in sexual activity irrespective of the criminal law. This activity is better addressed through parental guidance. Increasing the age of consent could result in criminalizing the conduct of these youth.

This could have a disproportionate impact on communities where it is considered acceptable for youth to engage in sexual activity at a younger age than in other communities. An increase in the general age of consent could lead to either a denial of or diminished access to sexual health care and services, including access to contraceptives for youth below the age of consent, notwithstanding that they are engaging in sexual activity.

Others support an increase in the age of consent to either 16 or 18 years of age for a variety of reasons, including the belief that persons from other jurisdictions that have a higher age of consent, such as many American states, may come to Canada to prey on 14 and 15 year olds because of the lower age of consent in Canada.

Raising the age to 16 would make Canada's laws more consistent with that of other countries, such as the U.K. and many American states. Fourteen and fifteen year olds lack the mental and emotional maturity to cope with the psychological effects of engaging in sexual activity and, in particular, engaging in sexual activity with older persons. Raising the age to 18 would make the age of consent consistent with child sexual exploitation offences as well as with other laws governing youth, such as those relating to alcohol and tobacco and age of majority.

Thus it is clear that the matter of maintaining or raising the minimum age of consent is not as simple as it may seem. A legislative reform that goes beyond merely forbidding the behaviour of a potential sexual predator may have a number of potential repercussions. These could, for example, include the age of consent to marriage and access to the health system for services relating to the reproductive system and sexuality.

For this reason, the federal, provincial and territorial ministers responsible for justice have called upon their senior departmental staff with expertise in criminal law to draft various options for examination.

This issue can simply be described as whether the existing age of consent to sexual activity should be maintained or increased. I hope that hon. members can appreciate that the issue and our potential response to it is not so simple. There is a divergence of opinion on this matter. All issues must be fully and carefully explored to ensure that children are provided with adequate and appropriate protection.

The issues raised in today's motion are complex and will best be dealt with by adopting a thoughtful, consultative and co-operative approach. It is in this fashion that we will best serve Canadians.

[Firearms Registration, April 23rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, we are basically talking about a question of principle here. We do believe that the policy that is in place will offer better protection for Canadian society. It is a choice, as well, that we have made as a society.

As we said, the registration and the licensing process is working well. Not long ago we talked about the question of outsourcing in order to keep offering our Canadian population very good services on that side.