Madam Speaker, I rise in the House this afternoon to make some comments concerning Bill C-85.
Primarily I should like to deal with the issue of fairness in Bill C-85, to talk about some alternatives the New Democratic Party has put forward in the past which we will continue to put forward in the future, and to make a recommendation to the House with respect to the bill.
I have served in the Saskatchewan legislature in the past. I have made speeches in public, in legislatures, in private and in other places about adequate compensation for elected officials. I have always believed, as the majority of Canadians believe, that if we pay adequate compensation to elected officials they are accountable to us. If taxpayers pay the fare for pay and benefits in a satisfactory way, the elected officials will be accountable to the taxpayers who pay the pay and benefits whether they are current or deferred.
I have made this speech in many forums. I have had support from almost 95 per cent of the people who have listened to my comments, in particular those in Saskatchewan. They agree that elected officials should be adequately compensated so that they can do the business of government and provide good, honest government.
Unfortunately for eight years in Canada we have seen the Mulroney government govern in a way that most Canadians rejected unanimously. As a matter of fact they only elected two members of Parliament as a result of the Conservative record. We have seen a government in Saskatchewan under Grant Devine Conservative for nine years, driving the province into bankruptcy and being totally dishonest with the people of Saskatchewan. They are despised by the people of Saskatchewan. The latest event in Saskatchewan is that one-third of the former government's cabinet and caucus is now facing charges before the courts for the type of alleged dishonest actions the taxpayers and the voters perceived them to be following when in government.
The Mulroney government drove our country into debt, gave tax breaks to the wealthy, hurt the poor, attacked the middle class and served the country in a very dishonest fashion. It is the same with Grant Devine, premier of Saskatchewan. Taxpayers have the same attitude toward him. People would say that paying those politicians a dollar a year would be too much, and I believe they are right.
Prior to the 1993 federal campaign in Canada and the 1991 provincial campaign in Saskatchewan, we have seen people who are disenchanted and cynical about elected politicians because of corruption, dishonesty and incompetence. New Democrats have always said, and we are supported by Canadians across the country, that if the government is good and honest and provides a fair agenda of legislation, pay and compensation will not be issues. They would wish to pay elected officials in a satisfactory way.
J. S. Woodsworth once said: "What we desire for ourselves we wish for all. Elected officials are elected with integrity, with common objectives, with individual objectives to serve their country". I think J. S. Woodsworth was saying that to get elected to Parliament to serve the country and do to fellow Canadians what we would like to have done to ourselves and is an honourable approach to government. He worked very hard as have the CCF and the New Democratic Party over the years to achieve those objectives.
We see in Bill C-85 one step forward to perhaps addressing the pension issue, the pay and benefits aspect of elected officials. However I am not sure whether it goes far enough. Canadians will judge that as time goes on.
With respect to desiring for ourselves what we wish for all, as J. S. Woodsworth has said and as has been quoted by many thousands of people over the years, we in the House of Commons and in the Government of Canada must show Canadians by example that it is a good government, that we are parliamentarians with honesty and integrity, and that we will introduce and support legislation to benefit Canadians as a whole rather than hurt Canadians. If we do this the attitude toward politicians will be much fairer and less cynical and we will be faced with spending a lot less time debating issues like a pension or salary package.
I also want to make a comment with respect to the Reform member for Beaver River who said that she is taking a reduction in pension and that this is an honourable thing to do.
Public service and serving the public is an honourable thing to do. Firefighters, police officers, provincial, municipal or federally elected officials are honourable professions in this country. It is no different from homemaking, working in retail, working in a steel mill, working as a teacher or in other areas. These professions are very honourable. They in essence serve the good of the country and the public.
If I were wealthy, I would gladly do this job for free. Most parliamentarians in this House would say the same thing.
As a matter of fact in the United States a large number of wealthy people govern the country, but Canadian taxpayers will say: "Who will the wealthy govern the country for? Will they govern the country for those who are on welfare, those who are single parents, those who do not have an education, power or pensions or other sources of income to support them? Who will they support? Will they support their own kind or will they support all Canadians?" In the American example we see very clearly that to be active in politics you have to be a millionaire or a multimillionaire just to run for office, never mind serving your country.
There has to be fair compensation with respect to elected officials. Most of us would serve if we were not paid and were able to have some other income to sustain an adequate lifestyle. As long as members of Parliament set their own benefits, Canadian taxpayers will believe benefits are too generous.
We see in the Reform Party and others in politics, the former Conservative governments, that they play the mugs game. It is not a winning game. It does not matter if we get paid $64,000, or $90,000 or $15,000 a year, it will still be too much in some people's eyes. That is fair. They are entitled to their opinion.
The point I am making is that we have to look at this pension bill in a very broad way. We have to recognize some of the arguments on both sides of the issue whether it is a mugs game: "I am going to bid down the pension; I am going to bid down the salary; vote for me, vote for me," or whether we are going to say: "I am elected as your member of Parliament. I am going to conduct myself in this House on behalf of this country in an honest, hard working way to ensure that my constituents have as much opportunity as possible for input to government and to ensure the decisions we take benefit as many Canadians as possible, not just a few".
Canadians have to be aware that it is a mugs game when we start bidding down benefits, and who is to benefit? The benefactors will be those who are rich and wealthy enough to seek public office. They will represent those who are rich and wealthy who already in most part influence this country through the Conservative Party, the Reform Party and the Liberal government of the day.
Most of the wealthy corporations contribute to those three parties. That is something the ordinary taxpayer has to be more aware of. They have to say that perhaps they should elect to Parliament people who are not wealthy, who do not support the wealthy, who are not on big pensions like many of the Reform members are.
I question the Reform's tactics and motives. In the Reform Party many members are receiving military pensions, teachers' pensions, former MLA pensions. They have all sorts of other private sector incomes and they are saying let us do away with this and let us do away with that.
Meanwhile they are ignoring the real problems of our country: the lack of jobs; the lack of commitment and resources to law and order; the lack of commitment and resources to our social programs. They do not care about people. They are just trying to make a political point and play a mugs game which they may or may not win.
If they win one battle they may be happy with that. The alternative is that people may not be too concerned about how low we go. I think they are more concerned about how hard we work and what kind of positive governance and representation in this House we give them.
The second point I wish to raise concerns the positive steps Bill C-85 has taken. I want it to be known that I am not endorsing the bill. However, I want to say that New Democrats have led the country in pension reform since 1979, unlike Reformers who have only talked about it since the last election.
I refer specifically to Saskatchewan Premier Allan Blakeney. On July 1, 1979 a bill was given royal assent in Saskatchewan to change MLA's pensions from the defined benefit plan, which we are now under in the House of Commons, to a defined contribution plan, which means it is a money purchase plan. It is like an RRSP. The member puts a dollar in and it is supported by the employer matching it with a dollar. Whatever is put in and
earned through various investments is what the member will receive.
The leader of the NDP, the hon. member for the Yukon, went on record in 1991, 1992 and in subsequent years calling for an independent commission to review MPs pay and benefits and in particular the pension plan.
The NDP has been doing this for 16 years. Bill C-85 is a step in the right direction. First, it reduces pension benefits by 20 per cent. Second, it raises the age of eligibility to 55 years from no age before. That is quite positive. Third, it reduces the cost to taxpayers by one-third, which is an honourable objective. It is on the right track and I believe most Canadians would agree that it is a positive step. Further, it eliminates the double dipping issue, which the minister spoke of earlier.
I would suggest that this bill not be endorsed in its entirety, but that it be referred to a standing committee-
