Jim Hart

[Privilege, March 13th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, a point of order.

I am shocked at the amendment today. It appears that the government side is trying to completely gut the spirit of the motion I brought forward yesterday.

[Bloc Quebecois, March 12th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on behalf of Canadians from across the country who have contacted me as the national defence critic for the Reform Party of Canada.

These Canadians have been offended by the October 26 communiqué released by Her Majesty's loyal opposition. The Bloc Quebecois calls for Quebec members of the Canadian Armed Forces-

[Privilege, March 12th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his intervention. I thank him for again reading the communiqué into the record of the House.

I point out that this is the evidence and what he said today is in it. There are quotes from the hon. member for Charlesbourg who says in the communiqué: "We will have to use and rationalize the resources already deployed in the territory of Quebec".

The evidence is in black and white. The member sent the communiqué. The communiqué was on the loyal opposition's letterhead. It is a black and white case. The evidence is that they sent the communiqué. It was done.

[Privilege, March 12th, 1996]

-to desert the Canadian Armed Forces with their arms. That is the difference. It is not a job offer. It cannot be construed as a job offer.

In conclusion, I urge that the actions of the member for Charlesbourg and the then Leader of the Official Opposition be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. I urge the defence committee members to seriously consider casting a vote supporting the Bloc Quebecois members for any chairmanship position offered in this House of Commons.

Mr. Speaker, thank you very much for your time.

[Privilege, March 12th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, the people of Quebec were supposed to be voting yes to negotiating a new deal with Canada. With the release of the communiqué it seems that the people of Quebec were misled. They were being asked to vote yes to the undermining of the Canadian Armed Forces starting the day after a yes vote. How can we allow special briefings by the defence department to the Bloc member in question or indeed his separatist caucus when we know that they are capable of this type of activity?

By November 11, 1995 the Toronto Star , an unimpeachable Liberal source, reported that the Bloc's whip denied knowing details of the communiqué. In my view this points to the reckless disbandment of the hon. member for Charlesbourg. Another explanation of the Toronto Star report would point to the possibility that the Bloc whip himself honestly did not understand the significance of the communiqué. Again I must question the prudence of providing these minds with the information contained in special briefings on the Canadian Armed Forces which are given to members of Canada's Standing Committee on National Defence.

On a related matter, Quebec Deputy Premier Bernard Landry wrote a quick note to all foreign diplomats in Canada encouraging them to recognize Quebec's new independence from Canada the day after a yes vote. The deputy premier sent his quick notes off to diplomats the night before the referendum.

I come to the controversial word "lendemain" which was in the communiqué. Some people say it means the "next day" in English.

As with the action of Quebec's deputy premier, what we are watching here is the action of a very few excited men. One is the deputy premier; the other is the Bloc's defence critic. The actions which these men took were without a doubt wrong. They were not thought through completely. They were damaging and regrettable. They are mistakes.

It was a mistake for the deputy premier to insult Canada by encouraging foreign diplomats to interfere with Canadian politics. It was a mistake for the Bloc's defence critic to contact Canadian Armed Forces personnel and coerce them into choosing sides in the secession debate. Again, there are no apologies for these seemingly sinister actions. Having said that, what we are talking about may be

truly mistakes. No one knows because we have not dealt with these matters. Mistakes can be corrected.

Many people have been hurt as a result of the efforts of the Quebec separatists. Canadians have been killed.

We still remember the previous premier of Quebec blaming the loss of the referendum on those voters in Quebec who were new Canadians, Canadians of different cultures, anglophones and allophones. Mistakes hurt people. These mistakes must be addressed. There should be no apologies for these actions and no apologies are volunteered.

We must bring these matters to the attention of the proper authorities. Today, as if I had the power of the proper authority, I raise the matter of the communiqué. The Government of Canada has the authority to deal with this matter. Our courts have tried it. The Liberal Party of Canada has chosen not to exercise the authority of our federal government with respect to this communiqué.

The constituents of Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt sent me to Ottawa because I am not a Liberal, yet I have the power of our federal government. The people I represent have vested this power in me. They have entrusted it with me. They have asked me to come to Ottawa and see that our federal government protects Canadians and the integrity of this House.

I am raising this matter in the House and I am raising it in the defence committee later today. I have some serious problems with the Liberal members sitting on the defence committee who vote in support of members of the Bloc Quebecois to serve as vice-chairs.

The Liberals I have no doubt are greatly relieved that last week I made public my plan to force them to draw the line in the sand on what is unacceptable behaviour by parliamentarians. The Liberals are sure that the member for Charlesbourg will not stand for re-election as the vice-chair for the defence committee. The Liberals under the auspicious eye of the Liberal whip, a man to be feared if one is a Liberal, plan to elect a different Bloc Quebecois member as vice-chair. The same Liberal Party whip described the communiqué using the terms "dangerous" and "mutiny" in the same sentence. This must have been following his public statement that he knew very little of the details of the communiqué.

I hope the new vice-chairs will know that the Canadian Armed Forces personnel are only released after a six-month period and not the next day.

The communiqué cannot be described as a job offer. I would like to point this out. What we are talking about here is not Zellers asking the people from Wal-Mart to come over to the new firm. He asked members of the Canadian Armed Forces, men and women who have pledged allegiance to this country, to move to a new armed forces-

[Privilege, March 12th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, my main purpose of this effort today is to draw the line on what is unacceptable behaviour with respect to trying to get members of the Canadian Armed Forces to take sides on the secession issue.

Canadians from coast to coast have been contacting me as the defence critic for the Reform Party of Canada objecting to this action taken by the separatist party in the House.

Retired Major-General Lewis MacKenzie recently told Diane Francis, the editor of the Financial Post : ``Only in Canada could you get away with something like that. In some countries people would be waiting in jail. In Canada the attitude is ignore it, it will go away, there are more important issues''.

Many Canadians share my view that there are no issues more important than the one the House faces today.

We in this place have tried to behave accordingly, waiting for the people of Quebec to say no to separation. For example, many of us did not agree with the fairness of the referendum question. Many of us had problems with many things surrounding the activities of the separatists in Quebec, the government and the words of the separatist party in this House.

However, Canadians are strongly objecting to what was done to our Canadian Armed Forces personnel during the pre-referendum debates. The call to defect from the Canadian military is more than Canadians can accept as acceptable behaviour by parliamentarians. It is more than our armed forces personnel should have to accept as acceptable behaviour from elected representatives in this place.

We must not be forced to sit on our hands in the face of this incident. We must protect the integrity of this institution and have it seen by all Canadians that we are doing everything we can to ensure that hon. members conduct themselves within the limits of acceptable behaviour.

We have tried to deal with the attempt to break up our country. We have met every argument head on in our attempts to keep the country unified.

It is not fair to Canadians that this incident has no remedy. It is not fair that this thing has happened without any form of authority or debate to respond to it. Canadians want this House to deal with what many describe as seditious and offensive behaviour to this House.

All hon. members of this House are trying to respond to their constituents, asking for an explanation of how it is that our military can be meddled with by those attempting to break up our country. This House owes Canadians the right to pursue offensive actions on behalf of every person represented in this place. This House owes our Canadian Armed Forces personnel the right to have this matter investigated by us. We owe it to ourselves to make sure that this incident is not offensive to the Parliament of Canada.

Media reports advise me that the call to arms printed on the letterhead of the Leader of Her Majesty's Official Opposition was faxed to national media outlets and to every Canadian forces base in Quebec. The communiqué reached our peacekeepers in Bosnia. The Liberal defence minister called the plot shocking and outrageous. The Liberal defence minister has told the media that he sought legal advice from the top echelons at the Department of National Defence. Since then we have heard nothing from the Liberal defence minister.

Canadians know that the minister has once again mismanaged his duties of his cabinet portfolio. Canadians wanted something to be done about what many people believe to be a criminal act. Canadians are proud of our military establishment and we are anxious to speak up on behalf of the men and women serving in the Canadian Armed Forces.

No one, no one can meddle with the Canadian Armed Forces and brag about it. Brag about it; that is what they have done. I have been told that the Bloc Quebecois voted on this intention in its caucus. The Bloc Quebecois caucus voted in support of releasing this communiqué and then the Leader of Her Majesty's Official Opposition certainly supported sending the communiqué.

As of today Canadians perceive no apologies, no regrets and no Mr. Bouchard. The people of Canada have tried to take this thing to the courts because the Liberals have decided to do nothing about it. Everyone knows that for political reasons the Liberals have advised themselves not to touch this one. The Liberals did not ask Lucien Bouchard to retract the communiqué, discipline his caucus colleagues or apologize on behalf of the separatists. The appropriateness of this kind of behaviour should be debated in public.

The release of the communiqué calls into question the integrity of certain Quebec separatists. How can these same political leaders declare that they intend to engage in peaceful negotiations with the rest of Canada? A yes vote in the referendum was supposed to mean that negotiations were to begin. However, it is very clear from the actions of the Bloc Quebecois defence critic that a yes vote would have been treated by some separatists as some sort of immediate declaration of independence and sovereignty.

The people of Quebec were supposed to be voting yes to negotiating a new deal with Canada. With the release of the communiqué-

[Privilege, March 12th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I move:

Whereas the member for Charlesbourg, acting as the defence critic for the Bloc Quebecois and supported by the then Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, released a communiqué on the letterhead of the office of the leader of the official opposition on October 26, 1995 before the referendum in Quebec inviting all francophone members of the Canadian Armed Forces to join the Quebec military in the event of a "yes" vote supporting separation from Canada;

That in the opinion of this House, this action by the hon. member for Charlesbourg, and the then leader of the official opposition should be viewed as seditious and offensive to this House and constitutes a contempt of Parliament; and consequently, the House refer the matter to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs for examination.

[Privilege, March 12th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, the point was raised whether or not this matter came to the attention of the House at the earliest possible convenience.

I would like to give the House my assurance that I brought this matter forward at the earliest possible convenience. The Speaker knows that the House was prorogued for some 10 weeks. That was not the fault of this party or myself. It took some time for the research to be done. I know the Speaker will take the time to read the blues and he will see we have quoted from Erskine May, Maingot and also parliamentary privileges from Beauchesne's as pointed out by the Liberal whip. There was a tremendous amount of research. This is a complex issue.

I want to assure members of the House that it is in the purview of the powers we have in the House of Commons to determine whether these actions of the member were in fact a contempt of this place. We ourselves must determine that. That is why I have brought this forward today.

The main purpose of my effort is to draw the line on what is unacceptable behaviour with respect to trying to get members of the Canadian Armed Forces to take sides in the secession issue. That is the purpose of this motion: to draw the line and say what is acceptable and what is unacceptable in the eyes of this House.

[Privilege, March 12th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege with regard to the actions of a member of the House which I believe constitute a contempt of Parliament.

I cite Joseph Maingot's Parliamentary Privilege in Canada , page 210:

In the sense that the House may discipline members for improper conduct, the practice relating to taking up the conduct of members is a matter of privilege.

Beauchesne's sixth edition citation 50 states:

In any case where the propriety of a Member's actions is brought into question, a specific charge must be made.

Page 206 of Maingot's Parliamentary Privilege in Canada states:

The conduct of a member may only be discussed in the House of Commons by way of a substantive or a distinct motion, i.e. a self-contained proposal submitted for the approval of the House and drafted in such a way as to be capable of expressing a decision to the House.

Mr. Speaker, I have a specific charge and a substantive motion. I will submit it to you to determine whether it should be given privilege:

Whereas the member for Charlesbourg, acting as the defence critic for the Bloc Quebecois and supported by the then Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, released a communiqué on the letterhead of the office of the leader of the official opposition on October 26, 1995 before the referendum in Quebec inviting all francophone members of the Canadian Armed Forces to join the Quebec military in the event of a "yes" vote supporting separation from Canada;

That in the opinion of this House, this action by the hon. member for Charlesbourg and the then leader of the official opposition should be viewed as seditious and offensive to this House and constitutes a contempt of Parliament; and consequently, the House refer the matter to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs for examination.

Beauchesne's sixth edition citation 28 refers to the Speaker's ruling from June 19, 1959:

-it is clear that many acts which might offend against the law or the moral sense of the community do not involve a Member's capacity to serve the people who have chosen him or her as their representative nor are they contrary to the usage nor derogatory to the dignity of the House of Commons. Members of the House of Commons, like all other citizens, have the right to be regarded as innocent until they are found guilty, and like other citizens they must be charged before they are obliged to stand trial in the courts. Parliament is a court with respect to its own privileges and the dignity and the privileges of its Members.

The member for Charlesbourg has not denied sending the communiqué. This is a matter of fact. It is not something we have to prove. It is prima facie. The question to be answered is whether the member is guilty of offending Parliament. In the opinion of the House is the hon. member for Charlesbourg guilty of sedition?

This issue is being debated in the media and in the public. It is not going away. Many of us have received letters, faxes and phone calls concerning this matter. Canadians from coast to coast to coast have been contacting me as the Reform Party's defence critic objecting to the action taken by the separatist party in the House.

Retired Major-General Lewis MacKenzie recently told Diane Francis, the editor of the Financial Post : ``Only in Canada could someone get away with something like that. In some countries people would be in jail. In Canada the attitude is ignore it, it will go away, there are more important issues''.

I repeat that in June of 1959 the then Speaker of the House pointed out that Parliament is a court with respect to its own privileges and dignity.

Beauchesne's sixth edition citation 46 states clearly:

The House has, on occasion, examined the activities of Members to establish if they were fit to hold their seats.

We have the right and the duty to examine these activities of members. I am not recommending that we do this on a regular

basis. However, a case such as the present one warrants our examination. In the present case we have a member of Parliament encouraging members of the Canadian Armed Forces to choose sides on the secession debate. This should be examined by the House.

Page 188 of Maingot's states:

A prima facie case of privilege in the parliamentary sense is one where the evidence on its face as outlined by the member is sufficiently strong for the House to be asked to send it to a committee to investigate whether the privileges of the House have been breached or a contempt has occurred and report to the House.

The evidence here is black and white. It is in the form of a communiqué the hon. member sent to the military.

With respect to whether this constitutes a contempt of Parliament, Erskine May's 21st edition at page 115 states that an offence of contempt:

-may be treated as a contempt even though there is no precedent of the offence. It is therefore impossible to list every act which might be considered to amount to contempt, the power to punish for such an offence being of its nature discretionary.

Maingot's, page 191:

While privilege may be codified, contempt may not-there is no closed list of classes of offences punishable as contempts of Parliament.

On October 29, 1980 a Speaker of the House said:

The dimension of contempt of Parliament is such that the House will not be constrained in finding a breach of privilege of its Members or of the House. This is precisely the reason that, while our privileges are defined, contempt of the House has no limits.

Mr. Speaker, if contempt has no limits, if there need not be a precedent for the offence, if contempt cannot be codified and if the House shall not be constrained in finding a contempt of Parliament, how can you do anything else but allow the members of the House the opportunity to decide if the actions of the hon. member for Charlesbourg are offensive and constitute a contempt? How can you decide this matter offends us or not? The evidence is more than sufficiently strong. The evidence is conclusive. The member sent the communiqué. We must therefore go to the next step. We must determine by due process in our opinion the member's innocence or guilt.

I would like to table the evidence in this case, which is the communiqué dated October 26, 1995 from the office of the official opposition.

Mr. Speaker, I ask that you find this matter to be a prima facie question of privilege. I believe that this matter should be reviewed to determine whether or not the dignity of the House has been violated by the hon. member's actions.

[China, March 11th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today on behalf of the constituents of Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the government has yet to take a stand with respect to the tensions between Taiwan and China.

Our nation is famous around the world in assisting with dispute resolution among nations. What are the Liberals doing to prevent a further increase in tensions? Already free movement in shipping lanes has been impeded. Trade throughout the Asia Pacific region has been disrupted.

The lack of Liberal leadership could tarnish Canada's hard earned international reputation. Canada must demonstrate leadership before conflict breaks out. The Liberals have no constructive policy, nothing to offer to help alleviate the tensions between Taiwan and China. Under the chaotic command of the Liberals, Canada's defence policy, foreign affairs policy, and international trade policy are in conflict.

This government should offer to help broker a resolution between Taiwan and China.