Lloyd Axworthy

[West Coast Ports Operations Act, 1994, February 8th, 1994]

moved that the bill be concurred in.

(Motion agreed to.)

[West Coast Ports Operations Act, 1994, February 8th, 1994]

Mr. Chairman, rather than unnecessarily accepting an amendment maybe what we can do is indicate that because we are settling the strike the employees do not have to be back at the very stroke of 6.30 a.m.

The employer can call them back to work and they can do their shaping up and so on as need be. We can recognize that and not try to impose any enforcement action in those periods as long as it is done in a reasonably short time after the deadline is reached. I say this as a passing amendment.

(Clause agreed to.)

[West Coast Ports Operations Act, 1994, February 8th, 1994]

Mr. Chairman, I could take the hon. member's representations but I suppose what we could do is look at time differences.

If the Senate is able to get to this bill by nine o'clock tonight, there is a 12-hour period before the legislation comes into effect. I would hope that they could respond to that. However if it is a normal work routine, we will take that into account as long as it is being honoured properly.

Perhaps the hon. member can give us the representation he has and we will consider it. We are not going to force an event unduly but we think 6 a.m. or 6.30 a.m. would be a proper time. Maybe it is a good time to start work.

[West Coast Ports Operations Act, 1994, February 8th, 1994]

Mr. Chairman, as I said earlier, I do not think the floor of the House of Commons is the place to do the negotiations or to determine which side is right or wrong or who had which offer or which offer was fair or more realistic. I think what we are trying to establish in the House of Commons is a way of settling the dispute under a fair, honest, open, objective procedure.

Let us let the arbitrator under this procedure make a determination after he gets the final offer proposals from both parties to determine what is proper and right in terms of a settlement.

(Clause agreed to.)

(Clause 14 agreed to.)

On clause 15:

[West Coast Ports Operations Act, 1994, February 8th, 1994]

Mr. Chairman, just as a matter of information, under the Canada Labour Code when grievance arbitrators establish such a procedure the parties to the dispute are asked to carry the costs on it.

As the hon. member said, these are frugal times. As part of the discipline that we want to apply to parties in this dispute we expect that if there is a certain cost factor there that we should not ask the public, which has already paid an enormous cost over the past 10 weeks. The parties to the dispute should pay it.

[West Coast Ports Operations Act, 1994, February 8th, 1994]

Mr. Chairman, I have simply said no to the amendment. I have agreed with the Bloc Quebecois to share the choice of an arbitrator if need be. That is the proposal. But I not prepared to accept the amendment because it rejects the final offer selection process. That is what this legislation is about: final offer selection. If we had decided on an arbitrator we would have

proposed arbitration, but we decided on final offer selection instead, that is all.

[West Coast Ports Operations Act, 1994, February 8th, 1994]

Mr. Chairman, I will not go back on old arguments because as the hon. member said the clock is ticking and time is whiling away. Let me see if I can deal with the hon. member's concerns.

I looked carefully at the amendment the hon. member presented. The difficulty I have with the amendment is that it is arbitration by another name. It is not final offer selection. In effect it changes the act. It would therefore not be a way of testing whether final offer selection is a useful technique. We would simply be putting it off to another time, another circumstance and who knows what charges of bias would then erupt.

I suppose what would happen is we would never have final offer selection because any party that did not want to have it would say there was a bias in that and therefore they do not agree with it. We would therefore be continuing to put off the day when we could try at the federal level to use it as an effective means of resolving some of our more difficult labour-management disputes.

If the problem is the feeling that the mediator by recommending a 65 cent level which is perfectly within his right to do if in the best interests is the way they saw a solution which could be rejected by the parties that somehow that indicates some sort of a favour on one side or the other, let me make an offer to the hon. member.

Under the legislation we say both parties can appoint an arbitrator on final offer selection if they can agree. The hon. member says that is not possible, they will not agree. I am glad the hon. member said this because it makes my point very well. We were not going to get agreement with these two parties. They were going to rely upon government intervention whatever happened because both parties, not just management but labour as well, were too used to that solution.

It then comes that it is my responsibility to choose, and the hon. member is suggesting that we want to have perceptions of fairness. How about if the first thing does not work and it comes to me to make a selection, we will put together a list of names. I will consult with members opposite to determine who they would most like to see as a fair person to put in the arbitrating procedure to show that in fact it is a fair offer. I will make that offer today so we can get on with the business of this legislation and the business of moving the grain.

[West Coast Ports Operations Act, 1994, February 8th, 1994]

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. member for an instructive lesson in labour relations in her part of the world, which I know she was very much involved in. It only makes my point. Some are arguing that the final offer selection has a bias to it, that it all depends on which end of the decision they are. There is no inherent bias one way or the other.

However, I do think it is important to make a distinction because members here have tried to indicate that somehow the mediator was imposing a settlement of 65 cents. The mediator has no power to impose anything. All the mediator does is facilitate the process and make suggestions as to what he or she may think is the best way of resolving the dispute.

Parties are quite in their right to disregard the mediator's proposals. He or she is simply there to try to find a solution. If it is rejected, that is when the mediation no longer applies and the parties can do it themselves. In this case they were incapable of doing it themselves and that is why we are in the House debating it today.

An arbitrator, on the other hand, does have authority to prescribe a solution. In this case, the bill says very explicitly that both parties can come together and recommend an arbitrator. It is up to whomever they choose. I would think it would be in their interest to get somebody who is mutually acceptable. I am not sure of the procedure used in the hon. member's case when she was mayor but I do know that in this case we have set out in the bill that the arbitrator can be a decision of both parties.

If they fail to come to a decision even on that because of the various chemistries at work then we will appoint an arbitrator, and I can guarantee that it would be someone who is totally and completely objective in the matter, whose only interest would be to find a proper settlement based upon what the final best offers of the two parties would be. My hope would be that the mediator would be somebody chosen by both management and labour.

[West Coast Ports Operations Act, 1994, February 8th, 1994]

He is no longer in the process.

[West Coast Ports Operations Act, 1994, February 8th, 1994]

Mr. Chairman, on the contrary, I tabled proposals using the final offer selection. Under the circumstances this is the best way to define the responsibilities of the two sides.

The hon. member and some others seem to assume that going back to the traditional operation, which in effect is what the hon. member for Mercier is proposing, is a perfect solution. There are winners and losers under arbitration as well.

The hon. member from Burnaby was just saying that if I appoint the arbitrator he is going to be biased and therefore he is automatically going to lose. I am trying to say I want to be fair. I want to say to both parties that they must decide what they think is the best solution, make the best offer and that becomes the basis for a decision; not cherry picking, not taking little bits and pieces, little fragments here and there. That is arbitration.

We are saying we are trying to develop a different process. I say this with great reservations to my friends in the Reform Party because so far they have been very supportive, but we have had two NDP governments bring forward proposals on final offer selection in those provinces. They felt it was a way of giving a fairer resolution and retaining-and this is what I do not understand, in particular members of the Bloc who have been involved in the union movement-principles of collective bargaining, the full right of the parties to the dispute to become involved in making the solution themselves, not having it imposed by government.

That is what this legislation does. Bring them back to work, set up a process in which both parties will still have to make a decision as to what is in their best interests and in the collective interest of the community. That is what this particular idea of fair offer selection will do. It will send out a message in other disputes down the way that we will expect them to recognize and act in their collective responsibility, not simply to look to government as a crutch or solution.