Mary Clancy

[Points Of Order, October 30th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say on behalf of my constituents from Nova Scotia that those who came to Montreal on Friday and sang "O Canada" loud and clear-

[Law Commission Of Canada, October 19th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments of the hon. member because what I hear in them is a real cri du coeur. I understand his being upset about certain situations that he perceives to be developing in the country. There are several things to consider but let me deal with a number of comments he made.

With regard to the problem of there being a Liberal government, I would only say to the hon. member that the government was duly elected in a very democratic process. A majority of Canadians elected a majority of Liberals. We are here to represent the wishes of our constituents, just as the hon. member is here to represent the wishes of his. It so happens that a majority of Canadians picked this Liberal government. I understand he does not like it. I understand he does not agree with it, but there it is. It is a fait accompli and unfortunately he will have to deal with it. I suspect he will have to deal with it after the next election as well, but we will wait and see.

There is a real misconception in the land with regard to criminal activity. This is not to minimize the criminal activity that takes place but unfortunately some of our hon. colleagues in the third party are overly influenced by American television and American newspapers. The crime rate is not rising in this country over all. It is rising in the United States; it is not rising here. As a matter of fact in certain sectors it is dropping, but good news unfortunately is not something the third party deals in.

I will certainly not deal with the member's meanderings on the issue of capital punishment. As my constituents well know I have been against capital punishment from the first time I ever heard of it. I will continue to be against capital punishment for the rest of my life. The people of Halifax know well what my feelings are on this and other issues, never having been one to hide my opinions.

I go back to what the hon. member said about the law commission. With the greatest of respect it shows he does not understand it. The law reform commission is not the House of Commons and the House of Commons is not the law reform commission. They are two separate entities with two separate jobs. The law reform commission is there to research and recommend. Then the government and the House of Commons can accept or reject its recommendations. In many cases those recommendations are accepted; in other cases they are rejected.

They talk about it being hand and glove with the Liberal government. I merely ask the member to take any list of the previous members of the Law Reform Commission of Canada, or of those provinces that have law reform commissions, and he will see people who have served their country, served their province and served their community in ways the third party would like very much to be able to emulate.

We are talking about people who are eminent members of their communities, holders of the Order of Canada, people who have been honoured by non-partisan members of their community. I for one find this disappointing, tragic, and I would go so far as to say despicable, that they would cast aspersions on the characters of such a large group of public servants, of people who serve Canada.

Why would these people cast aspersions on people who wish to serve their country? Why is membership on a federal board or committee, a provincial board or committee, or a municipal board or committee something that should taint you? I am appalled that anyone would suggest this. I am appalled that there is such a narrow and angry and sad view of public service in this country by the hon. members of the third party, that they do not rejoice in the opportunity to serve Canada, in the opportunity to stand up and say how lucky we are to be in the House of Commons or how lucky our constituents are to be able to serve their country.

If they do not feel that way, I can only say we feel on this side of the House a great sorrow for them at the loss in their public participation.

[Law Commission Of Canada, October 19th, 1995]

They will do it for nothing. It is probably like throwing in 10 per cent of their salaries and all that stuff. I notice some of them are not talking about the pensions over there.

That is not what Parliament was elected to do. If my hon. colleagues do not understand that perhaps they need job descriptions. Parliament was elected to represent the people, to debate in the Chamber, to review legislation in legislative committees, to deal with various and sundry public policies in standing committees, et cetera, to do constituency work, and to deal with our political duties.

I can only say that if members of the third party feel they have the time-and I am not even going to get into the questions of expertise-to be a law reform commission, thank the powers that be we are in government and there is little or no danger of that ever taking place under the current government.

I am delighted to support the legislation. I am delighted we are fulfilling a red book promise. I am delighted there will once again be a law commission to serve the needs of Canadians.

[Law Commission Of Canada, October 19th, 1995]

A three syllable word, well done. When I sat on the other side of the House and saw the law reform commission disbanded, I along with many of my colleagues was very unhappy. I knew how important it was to the development of legislation.

One of the things the law commission does is provide a critical eye and a distinctive perspective on modernizing the law. The word modernizing is very important. Words like modernize, progressive and forward looking along with independent and strategic may not be words familiar to some of our colleagues.

The commission will have five guiding principles. It will approach the law from a multi-disciplinary perspective, and this is very important. As I said before, one cannot leave the making of the law and the creativity of law reform merely to lawyers or legislators. One needs to bring in people from all walks of life, to listen to them, to hear what they need.

When I taught law I used to tell my students the law is a reactive social science. In general law will come into existence to react to a specific need, to specific a situation.

Sometimes, as in the case of human rights law, the law is proactive. For many of us, especially those enamoured of human rights law and who see this as one of the brightest lights in our parliamentary careers, the law then becomes proactive.

In general it is reactive and it is the job of a law commission to delve into the hearts and minds of the people in a way that legislators and lawyers in the legislatures do not have the time to do. They have a specific job which they will be doing all the time whereas legislators, contrary to the rather superficial responses of the third party, have other things to do.

We as legislators and as members of Parliament have casework, committee work, political work, travelling back and forth to our ridings. It is a massive job, which I do not have to tell anyone here, including members of the third party.

Consequently if one is to serve the people as one should with the law reform commission one needs people who will dedicate all their time to the particular necessities and exigencies of law reform.

This seems a fairly simple statement and a fairly simple concept to grasp. Obviously it is not in some cases, but I can do only what I have been asked by the people controlling the debate. The chips will have to fall where they may, in empty barrels or elsewhere.

There are five guiding principles. I have talked about the first one, a multi-disciplinary perspective being open and inclusive by making its work more accessible and understandable to all Canadians. This is something that is very dear to my heart.

I taught undergraduates in several universities in Nova Scotia in areas of law, family law, legal status of women, law and aging, and environmental law. I always found it terribly important to demystify the legal process for the majority of Canadians.

A legitimate complaint that comes to us both as legislators and lawyers is that the law is mumbo-jumbo. There are legal documents and pieces of legislation that the average Canadian does not understand what we are on about. Part of the work of the law reform commission is to make the law more accessible and understandable for Canadians and to utilize innovative research, consultation and management practices through new technologies.

As we approach the millennium we have exploding technology in the country. We are one of the leading countries on earth, if not the leading in certain high tech areas. Except for the people trained in those particular disciplines, to the vast majority of Canadians a lot of this is very mystifying.

How much more mystifying is the regulatory and legislative process that surrounds us? Ergo, how much more necessary is it to have the law reform commission take on the job of making sure that as the legislation is brought forward to the government it will be less mystifying to Canadians?

Another important point is being responsible and accountable to key groups affected by law reform through partnerships that build on existing knowledge and expertise. Since it came into power two years ago the government has talked about the question of partnerships. We talked about partnerships between business and government. We talked about partnerships between interest groups and government. It is one reason we have seen massive consultations in all sorts of areas between the government and the people. The people of Canada appreciate that consultation because the previous government of not so blessed memory had no history of consulting with Canadians except in a very few cases.

A law commission gives an opportunity for Canadians to come forward with their concerns about developing areas and the things they would like to see. They can come forward to help develop law in areas that provide for good government. In effect it is a tool of democracy. It is one when we were in opposition we were very distressed to see removed. It is one that we promised in the red book we would reinstate. I could not be happier that we are fulfilling this promise, fingerprints of the Minister of Justice or not.

Next is the achieving of cost effectiveness in operation and the recommendations and advice it provides. This goes back to the well meant but misguided comments of my colleague on the other side who talked about the cost. The cost for Parliament to do the work of the law reform commission in time, in person hours-

[Law Commission Of Canada, October 19th, 1995]

Not according to the people of Nova Scotia.

The people on the Law Reform Commission of Canada and the various provincial law commissions have a job quite different from that of legislators. I have served for seven years in the House. Mr. Speaker, you and I served together on a legislative committee, which I am sure will go down in your memory, when we were in opposition.

Legislative committees are one of the areas along with the Chamber where parliamentarians from both sides of the House can make their wishes, their policy concerns and their concerns generally for the development of legislation heard. That is what we are here for, no question.

A law commission is instituted for those areas that parliamentarians, busy with their daily jobs, do not have time to delve into. The vast majority of members are not lawyers, which is a good thing. The vast majority of members are certainly not academics and, heaven knows, the vast majority of members are not what one could call intellectuals. Consequently we are not in the business of doing the kind of legal research, exploration and prognostication-look it up-that leads to legislation in good government and prods governments to move in ways in the best interests of the country.

That is why people of the calibre of Mr. Justice Linden, Professor William Charles and President Murray Fraser have served at the provincial and federal levels along with hundreds of other Canadians. They have served with one desire and one desire only, to do good for their country.

For members of the opposition to use this bill, which fulfils a red book promise, as some sort of partisan stick with which they think they are beating the government not only cheapens the process when we consider the source but it says to Canadians we do not want their participation in the public process.

We on this side of the House do not say that. Three million dollars for this law commission is a low price to pay for the tremendous contribution of the people who will serve on this commission. What a low price to pay for the tremendous work they will do, for the hours of research, for the incredible gift of their thoughts, hard work and dedication to Canada.

It reminds me of a bit of a cliché about optimists and pessimists, certainly something that has been repeated often; the idea that an optimist sees a glass half full and a pessimist sees a glass half empty. When it comes to the boards and commissions that help us run the country, that advise the government, prod the government, in many cases boards and commissions at arm's length from the government with quasi-judicial functions on behalf of the people of Canada, the glass from my point of view is more than merely half full, it is full.

How very lucky we are in Canada that there are legions of citizens delighted to fulfil this role when many of them could be making more money and certainly taking a whole lot less abuse in other endeavours.

Having dealt summarily with the unusual and perhaps ill-informed comments from the other side, I will talk a bit about the bill. What is the commission created for? It is to fulfil the needs of the government and Parliament for independent, broadly based,

strategic advice on legal policy and law reform issues. That seems to me a fairly straightforward and clear statement of intent.

Independence means not connected to the party in government or the party in opposition. I realize there are many times when the third party does not really behave like a political party. If a party has not been in existence very long and does not have much history, it really does not understand how political parties behave. However, according to the office of the Chief Electoral Officer, it is a political party. It may be tragic. It may be unfortunate but it is a political party. It appears to be a political party with more than its share of empty barrels. As a political party it is not considered independent.

The hon. member for Calgary suggested her party could do this independently. It may well be its neophyte status in Parliament that under the rules of Parliament, even being the third party, it does not qualify as independent. There are other adjectives such as strategic, legal, et cetera, which it may not qualify for as well. I would not comment on those, heaven forbid.

I remind members of the third party as well as my trusting and beloved colleagues on this side of the House that keeping red book promises is very important.

[Law Commission Of Canada, October 19th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to join in the debate in this area. The area of law reform is one of special interest and special concern to those of us who have in the past been involved in the legal profession. It should be of interest to all of us as legislators.

Having been here all morning, I have listened, sometimes in shock, to some of the comments that have come particularly from the members of the third party with regard to a need for this bill. It may be a good time to talk about why this bill is being brought forward.

I first want to note that one of the hon. members for Calgary noted this bill "has the justice minister's fingerprints all over it". Well, it is his bill. I would hope it would have his fingerprints all over it. I wonder whose fingerprints should be on it if not those of the Minister of Justice. The Minister of Justice, in his usual well thought out way, has indeed brought this bill forward. We would not mind the solicitor general's fingerprints on it either, but as it happens this bill is brought forward by the Minister of Justice.

I want to talk about the law commission because tremendous things have come from bodies of this nature both at the national level and in various provinces where these bodies exist.

I listened, more in sorrow than in anger, to members opposite talk about Liberal flunkeys. I think of the people who have served on law reform commissions. Those comments ill serve anybody who wishes to be a public servant. In particular, I think of members of the former law reform commission, Mr. Justice Linden, for example. I recall Mr. Justice Linden's coming to a parliamentary committee where he and I crossed swords in an admirable debate on a bill which his commission had brought forward.

Mr. Justice Linden was then of the Ontario high court, as it was known. He is now with the appeal division of the Federal Court of Canada. He is the author of a torts textbook which all of us in the House who went through law school had the pleasure to read. We were taught very well by Mr. Justice Linden through his publications, textbooks and articles. To refer to him as a Liberal flunkey does a great disservice to the bench, the bar and Canadians who serve their country.

In my province of Nova Scotia one of the many lawyers and lay persons who have served so well on law reform commissions is the former dean of Dalhousie Law School, Professor William Charles. He was known across Canada as a law teacher. He was one of the founders of the University of Victoria law school when the University of Victoria asked Dalhousie law school to send professors to help it start a law school. He is unparalleled in his respect across the country in legal circles as someone learned in the law, a law reformer, a law teacher and a legal administrator.

I think of the current president of the University of Calgary, Murray Fraser, another former acting dean and associate dean at Dalhousie Law School. He was the first dean of the University of Victoria law school. He served on the Law Reform Commission of Canada back in the middle seventies before he went on to Victoria.

In Nova Scotia, where politics are taken with pabulum, the Fraser family would be taken aback to hear President Fraser referred to as a Liberal flunkey or a flunkey of any kind. That kind of pejorative talk is unfortunate.

It is perhaps because certain political parties are new to the legislative process that it behoves those of us who have been around a little longer to talk about-

[Law Commission Of Canada, October 19th, 1995]

Oh, oh.

[Immigration, October 6th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I again compliment the hon. member on his question.

With regard to taxi services which he clearly wants to call limousines, a car is a car. On the other hand if he wants to look at settlement services and what we do for immigrants coming to Canada, it is a program of which we are very proud. It is a program we are determined to preserve because on this side of the House we believe in the importance of immigrants in that they help build this country.

[Immigration, October 6th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, the Department of Citizenship and Immigration promotes open government and release of information to the greatest extent possible. I am certain the information the member has come up with probably came to him through this or other measures.

We are glad to promote open government and I am happy he has this information. I will pass it on to the minister to give the member a fuller answer at a later time.

[Employment Equity Act, October 6th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, there were several questions and I will be delighted to deal with each one.

First and foremost, I have to disagree with my hon. friend from Edmonton Southwest, one of my favourite members of the third party. On the question of education for tolerance as opposed to legislation, the point is that we have to do both. I think my hon. friend from Edmonton knows that.

Sometimes we do have to legislate. That is why we have human rights acts with which I am sure my hon. friend would not disagree. That is why western democracies have frequently had to drag portions of their populations kicking and screaming into the latter part of the 20th century. Sadly but truly, part of that is in the area of human rights law in all its ramifications. If we have to do that, we have to do that.

On the question of pensions, I do not think we are debating pensions, but yes, I opted into the pension. I am proud to do so and I will continue to be proud to do so because, in the words of that Clairol commercial, I am worth it.

With regard to the question of why the employment equity legislation does not relate to the House of Commons, there is an option for the House of Commons. I too agree with the hon. member but with legislation, one of the things I have learned in my seven years here is that sometimes we must crawl before we walk. This is a great step forward from the old act. The improvements and amendments will keep on coming in all areas of policy while the Liberal government, our Prime Minister and the cabinet make the policy for Canada.