Shaughnessy Cohen

[Old Age Security Act, October 20th, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, I cannot quarrel with my friend's numbers because I do not know if they are accurate or not.

The government is a Liberal government and it was a Liberal government that put in place the Canada pension plan in the first place. For a question like that to come to me is especially appropriate because the late Right Hon. Paul Martin, Senior, was a key person in putting the pension plan in place and I hold his riding today, a fact of which I am very proud.

I can assure the member and the listening public that under a Liberal government the Canada pension plan will not falter; it will not fail. Yes, even my friend opposite in 23 years' time will get his Canada pension plan payments.

[Old Age Security Act, October 20th, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, my friend opposite to whom I paid rapt attention talked about the gullibility of the public. I would suggest, given the results of the election almost a year ago, the public was not gullible. It was sensible when it elected 177 Liberals.

In any event it is my great honour to rise in the House today to speak in support of Bill C-54 which seeks to increase the efficiency of a number of income security programs and, by doing so, to improve client services.

I am sure all members of the House have either heard complaints in the media about government runaround or they have had to intervene themselves on behalf of constituents with problems. I know that I have.

Frankly these problems usually involved programs delivered by Human Resources Development Canada. As members are no doubt aware this can be time consuming for clients and time consuming for our staffs, for ourselves and for human resources development employees. Improvements have to be made to this situation. That is clear to me and it is certainly clear to the minister.

The income security programs branch of Human Resources Development Canada which administers the Old Age Security Act and the Canada pension plan, the two programs most directly impacted by the bill, is committed to addressing the challenge of improving client services. To do so the branch has undertaken a three-year project to implement computer services and high technology systems in order to replace existing systems which are clearly antiquated.

The government wants to be proud of the service it provides to its many ISP clients across Canada. As well frontline staff and all other staff in the public service sincerely want to be able to work more efficiently because they realize the impact that their work can have on benefit recipients or on those seeking information about those programs.

Many of the amendments contained in the bill complement the redesigned project. For instance, expanded information sharing provisions and improved consistency between the Canada pension plan and the Old Age Security Act will alleviate many of the frustrations benefit recipients have had to deal with in the past.

There is another type of client service provided for in the bill which I should like to mention. It involves two amendments to the Canada pension plan, the direct result of client representations to the government and requests for change.

In 1987 significant changes were made to the Canada pension plan which made flexible retirement possible for the first time. In recognition of the fact that Canadians wanted more say in when they would be able to retire, the Canada pension plan was amended to allow people to take their retirement benefits as early as age 60 and as late as age 70. For those taking early retirement between 60 and 65 years of age the benefit was reduced. For those taking late retirement between 65 and 70 the benefit was increased.

Upon introducing flexible retirement it was determined that it was only necessary to pay 12 months of retroactive retirement benefits to persons who delayed their benefit until after they were 70 years of age. It was felt that persons retiring at some point between 65 and 70 no longer needed this option because their benefit entitlement would be increased to reflect the fact that they had not taken their retirement benefit five years before, at age 65.

Experience has shown that there are those individuals over 65 years of age who would rather have up to 12 months of retroactive retirement pension than the actuarial increase in their monthly pensions. For this reason one amendment in the bill would allow persons to delay applying for retirement benefits past age 65 and to have the benefits paid retroactively for up to 12 months if they chose. The nice thing about it is that it is done at their election and is not something the government forces on them.

Another amendment to the Canada pension plan is also a reflection of the plan responding to input from the clients it serves. I am referring to an amendment which would allow former spouses divorced between 1978 and 1987 to waive the three-year limit for making application for a division of pension credits.

As I am sure many members are aware, when credit splitting was first introduced into the plan in 1978 it was only available to individuals who divorced or had their marriages annulled on or after January 1, 1978. As well, one of the conditions for a credit split was that application had to be made within three years of the date of the divorce or annulment.

In 1987 credit splitting was extended to separated spouses and the time limit was removed for divorced spouses but only if the divorce occurred after January 1, 1987. While this was certainly a major step forward in the pension protection afforded women, it did not recognize those women who had missed out on the time limit that had been in place. The further back we go in time, the more women we have in divorce situations who did not work or contribute to the Canada pension plan during their married lives.

The rationale for not removing the time limit for the group divorced prior to 1987 was that the government would be changing the rules of the game after the fact. By this reasoning, a divorced spouse who had not had his or her credit split had a right to expect that he or she could make his or her retirement plans in the knowledge that CPP pension credits would not be split. There was one group left out of this attempt at fairness: former spouses who wanted a credit split even though the three-year limit had passed.

I am sure all members of the House would agree with me that divorced spouses who stayed at home to raise their children and to attend to the countless challenges which are part of taking care of a home deserve a fair share of the pension protection earned during the time the couple was together. The amendment would allow the three-year time limit to be waived and therefore would allow a credit split where both parties agree in writing.

Passage of the legislation will supplement other initiatives under way within the department which will improve customer service and will allow the employees of the department the opportunity to provide excellent service to an ever growing client population. Over the next few years the introduction of a better way of doing business, supported by new technology, will renovate the department's systems and update those which are at least a quarter of a century old.

Because our client service will be greatly enhanced, future seniors in need will receive rapid and responsive service. This will at least give the department the tools and technology they need to provide the excellent service Canadians expect and Canadians deserve.

I am proud of the way the government has risen to the challenge to provide even better and more responsive service at a lower cost. In spite of the important role played by technology, I am pleased the initiative has not lost sight of its real intent which is to help to provide for the security of Canadians. It is clear that Canada's income security programs faithfully reflect the needs and the characteristics of the people they serve. It is for this reason that I am supporting the bill and that I urge all other members to do likewise.

The bill is one example of several undertakings the government has made in connection with the red book promises. We have promised, particularly in the human resources area, that we will streamline programs so that their administration costs less, their service is better and the people who need money, the people who need support, will be the ones who get it. The amendments to the Canada pension plan and to other income security plans have taken us a long way toward fulfilling that promise.

The next step is the overall social security review, during which time we will be consulting with Canadians based upon our discussion paper. We will be hearing from Canadians what their

position is and what their beliefs are on how we can provide them with better income security programs at a lower cost.

Those members who are critical of the program should get busy, get out there, have townhall meetings in their ridings, find out what their people are saying, find out what they want from our government, and let us know.

This is a consultative government. This is a transparent government. This is an open government. This is a government that will deliver responsible government services in an efficient and timely fashion.

[WOMEN MPs, October 18th, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to point out to those opposite who deride the accomplishments of female parliamentarians over here that I, like others, took all comers at a nomination meeting and I won.

I want to say that I am proud of that accomplishment and very proud of my brothers and sisters whom the Prime Minister had the good sense to appoint. He has the plan, he has the team and he has more female parliamentarians to support him than any other leader in history.

[Criminal Code, October 18th, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak on Bill C-41, a bill that fulfils yet another Liberal red book promise, sentencing reform within the criminal justice system.

During the past election campaign there was great debate over public security. That debate raged in some quarters as a debate of extremes. Some of these extremes have found their way through the electoral process into the House, which is as it should be.

The House, by its very nature and by its very culture, is a place of polar views and the residence of extremes, which are used sometimes as a vehicle for expressing opinion and as a vehicle for driving a point home. Other extreme views are strongly and I would suggest in some quarters unreasonably held.

That is the great risk and quite frankly the great beauty of the democratic system. The views will be heard. The views will be challenged. The views will be studied. They will be agreed with or they will be discarded. As in the case of the 1993 election, there will be a predominant view in the House which will succeed. That was reflected in the election by our forming the government. There was a predominant view in the land and Canadians overwhelmingly elected the Liberal Party of Canada to govern. From this overwhelming support, we have as we must taken our mandate. It is a mandate for job creation, for tolerance among disparate groups. It is a mandate for economic growth and a mandate for safer streets through tough but humane measures that recognize the supremacy of the rule of law.

It seems the charter has become inconvenient for some members of the House. The charter has become the subject of derision. The charter has become something for which some members have no respect.

Since 1979 I have practised law in the criminal courts of Ontario. Since 1982 I have acted as a prosecutor for the crown attorney's office in Windsor and Essex county. Between 1986 and 1988 I also served as a federal prosecutor. I know more than just a little about the subject matter in this debate.

I have defended and I have prosecuted the criminal. I have done both successfully within the bounds of the rule of law and since 1982, when it was enacted, within the bounds of the charter. I have seen the system at its best. I have seen the guilty convicted and punished even though the charter was in place. I have also seen the not guilty walk away. Most times when this happens the rule of law and the charter have prevailed. It is a tool for democracy and a tool for democratic resolution of disputes. It is also a tool that applies fairness within the system.

This bill is part of a fair, reasonable and responsible approach to the problems of public security that face our communities.

It is a bill that recognizes that intolerances exist in our society, intolerances that Canadians abhor. Sections which relate to hate crime and to crime arising out of hate recognize not special rights for individuals but recognize that our society abhors that kind of treatment of individuals. It is not there to create special rights for any given group and to provide excuses for individual behaviour. It is there because we as a society do not tolerate and promote hate. The bill has to be seen within the overall framework of Liberal philosophy and of the Liberal solutions to problems today.

I would like to take a moment to reflect on some of the problems in our society other than the Criminal Code, other than the behaviour of prosecutors and other than what some think are the causes of crime.

I suggest that what we should look at is crime as a part of the overall problems that plague our society. In the city of Windsor, part of which I represent, we have had an excellent recovery recently from the recession which has really wracked industrial Ontario and all parts of the country. Fortunately for Windsor our recovery has been on the leading edge of the recovery and has been quicker because of our excellent industrial base. We have found as we have begun to recover and as our unemployment rate has gone down that our crime rate has also gone down.

I suggest that the Liberal red book and the current government policy which promote economic recovery, job creation and reforms will give people a dignified means to make a living and contribute to our society. This will interact with bills like Bill C-41 to reduce and to handle crime in a way that is healthy and productive within our society. I would also suggest that as the greater Canadian community prospers, we will see a related decrease in the types of social problems that plague us.

No service is done to the community by firing the issue up to a point where it cannot be reasonably and responsibly addressed. No service is provided through disinformation to the electorate, through driving home a subject irresponsibly and emphasizing issues which serve only to inflame and frighten the citizenry without offering responsible solutions.

Increasing penalties for crimes-in particular I am thinking of non-violent crimes, property related crimes, regulatory offences and the like-and increasing incarceration penalties for those types of crimes do nothing but increase the financial burden on our citizenry and force the government into the pocket of its citizens in terms of taxation which some people see as another form of criminal activity.

I suggest that this bill addresses the financial bottom line in society in a very clear, creative and helpful fashion. It provides alternatives in terms of sentences which are based in the community so that offenders will be recognized as offenders. Offenders will be punished for their crimes and they will be rehabilitated within the community itself rather than being isolated and put into institutions which are phenomenally expensive to support.

On the other hand it takes a hard and I would suggest long awaited look at criminals whose activities are violent and extremely offensive to our citizens. By amending the parole section and by taking a good hard look at some of the sentencing problems that we have in our system for violent offenders, we are offering protection to our citizens where that protection is needed and where it is wanted.

This bill takes a balanced view. This bill takes a humane view. This bill respects the rule of law. It is a statute that fits withinthe overall Liberal philosophy, the red book philosophy, which respects the citizenry, which seeks to protect the citizenry and which seeks to elevate the quality of life for all Canadians.

[Department Of Public Works And Government Services Act, October 5th, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, it is true it has been almost a year. October 25 will be our first anniversary. During that period we have had an opportunity to assess and to see the precise situation in which the government has found itself.

The full integration of this department will result in savings of $180 million and 4,000 full time equivalent jobs between the 1993-94 fiscal year and 1997-98 representing a reduction of about 25 per cent of the current complement.

The emphasis is on reducing overhead through streamlining and eliminating duplication. These targets will not affect the delivery of services but will result in savings of $1 billion over the next few years. This is not chicken feed. It is a lot of money. I am very sorry if we did not do it as quickly as the other side of the House would like.

Everything is simple over there. Somehow you give people guns and they will not shoot each other any more. We will have law and order. Knock 20 per cent off the budget and people starve in the streets and I guess we do not have as many people to feed. That is a very simple view.

Over here where the responsible people live, we can say that we have studied it, we have looked at it and it has only just begun.

[Department Of Public Works And Government Services Act, October 5th, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, I only have eyes for you, sir, I can tell you that. I am happy to speak to my hon. friend through you and to remind my hon. friend that $3.5 million plus $3.5 million plus $3.5 million adds up.

It is one saving on top of another on top of another. We could do what the Reform Party suggested in its campaign and just knock billions off the top indiscriminately, thereby destroying the economy and putting people out on the street. We could do what the governor of Michigan did, for instance, and lob money off the top.

I would like to invite my hon. friend to come to Windsor sometime and we will take him over to Detroit. He can watch people who have suffered under the kind of regime that the Reform Party suggests. He can watch people living in the streets when it is cold and when the weather is inclement. He can watch those things. Or he can watch us save $3.5 million here and $4.5 million there. He can watch us reorganize the government and he can watch us deliver.

This is not the last nine years. This is the beginning of a very long period of time for the Liberal government and a very long period of time of Liberal efficiency. This is the beginning of a new life for Canada.

[Department Of Public Works And Government Services Act, October 5th, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, among the commitments we made when we came to power was a commitment to deal with the question of the efficiency of government operations, some of which over the past few years and particularly with the last government had become sluggish, fat and really not very efficient at all.

Our government was and remains determined to reassure Canadians that tax dollars are being spent in a manner which is efficient and cost effective and designed to produce the best results for our citizens. More specifically, our government pledged to work for a country whose governments are efficient, innovative and co-operative; a government which will meet the challenge of doing more with less in the new reality; a government which would provide improved service delivery in all areas where we were involved. At the same time we want to reduce the cost of government operations as a way of contributing to deficit reduction.

When we think about it this is a very liberal approach to a very difficult problem. Innovation is clearly necessary in order to uphold liberal principles in tough economic times. Those principles will be upheld because those Liberal campaign promises will be kept.

This government has worked vigorously and successfully over the past year to make good on these commitments. It has done so in a number of ways such as eliminating duplication in government services and building stronger intergovernmental co-operation.

One of the most fruitful areas for improving government efficiency lies in broadening the use of up to date technologies to communicate information and to deliver our services. This government has made continued progress in developing and implementing a number of these money and time saving applications of information technology.

One of the key players in furthering this process, one of the key players in developing new ideas and new applications is the recently formed Department of Public Works and Government Services.

As the government's main common service agency, Public Works and Government Services Canada currently supplies about 70 per cent of federal telecommunication services. An important element of the new department, the government telecommunications and informatics service is a major centre of expertise for these services and a key supplier to the entire federal government.

This department will operate in partnership with the private sector to manage infrastructure services for other government departments. These services can be enhanced and expanded with a view to establishing an integrated government-wide infrastructure. Clearly, Public Works and Government Services Canada has the key leadership role to play in re-engineering and streamlining the government's communications and service delivery system.

I would like to briefly outline a few of the specific applications of advanced technology that have been introduced by Public Works and Government Services Canada and that are already saving the taxpayers of Canada millions of dollars every year.

One of these is the direct deposit method of payment. In his role as Receiver General for Canada, the hon. Minister of Public Works and Government Services must issue approximately 193 million payments every year. In the past these were issued by cheque. These would cover salary payments to government employees and a variety of payments to recipients of government programs such as old age assistance.

Needless to say, this has been traditionally an expensive, although necessary process. In a move to reduce costs and improve these services the department has introduced direct deposit through which funds are deposited directly and electronically to the recipient's bank account.

Direct deposit has proved to be very popular and today more than 30 per cent of payments made by the Receiver General use this method. About three quarters of federal public servants and more than half of our pension recipients are now on direct deposit.

The system saves money for the Canadian taxpayer and is convenient for the recipients of these payments as well. The department estimates that over the past three fiscal years it has achieved savings of $45 million through reduced postage, production and financial costs. Cost savings are only a part of this story. Cost savings in and of themselves while important do not provide the whole picture here.

Direct deposit also eliminates the problem of lost, stolen, destroyed or forged payments. It further eliminates problems attendant to any disruption of postal service for instance. It is convenient, reliable, safe and is environmentally friendly. Direct deposit is an excellent example of an application of elec-

tronic technology that both reduces costs and improves service to the public.

Another example of communications technology introduced by Public Works and Government Services and which has growing application in the federal service is the use of electronic or E-mail. It now links more than 120,000 public servants across the country.

E-mail provides a system for exchanging information that is fast and efficient and that significantly reduces the paper burden within the government. It facilitates quicker decision making and faster service and it saves money, an estimated $55 million per year in time saving and improved efficiency.

Public Works and Government Services has also introduced during the past year a national video conferencing service. This service is now offered to all government departments and agencies at seven Public Works and Government Services sites across the country. Based on the enthusiastic demand for this new service, the department plans to expand to as many as 20 sites in the near future.

A major client of this new service will be Radian, the public service learning and communications network. This network's mandate is to save the public service time and money by encouraging long distance learning and video conferencing throughout the federal government which would then save on the costs associated with travel.

Although still in its early stages of development, this new service shows great potential for improving communications between various government departments across Canada at greatly reduced cost. It responds to the government's goal of cutting costs through the creative application of new technologies.

Members present may recall that in the autumn of last year and the spring of this year, the human resources development committee spent a great deal of time communicating with people across the country in an effort to establish a baseline of concern over the new social service review.

Part of that discussion and consultation employed this innovative new use of technology. I am pleased to say that the first witnesses to testify came from Windsor, Ontario. Instead of spending in excess of $8,000 to bring those witnesses to Ottawa, we were able through the use of this technology to spend substantially less and not to disturb them or have them travel.

The human resources committee will commence travelling on November 14 to all parts of the country in an effort to speak to people in their own locale and to see the situation across the country. While we are there we will continue to use video conferencing reaching even further into the country in order to give everyone an opportunity to be heard on this very important subject.

Through this technology the public works department has allowed us to communicate directly with Canadians and Canadians to communicate back directly with us in a very real form of direct democracy.

This department has also been active in expanding the application of new technologies in its business dealings with thousands of Canadian companies and individuals. As the prime procurement agency of the government, Public Works and Government Services purchases an average of $10 billion of goods and services each year on behalf of as many as 150 federal departments and agencies.

The department has instituted a number of automated systems to make this process more efficient and less costly to the government and to its suppliers. One of these is the recently established open bidding system or OBS.

This system provides an electronic bulletin board as well as a tri-weekly publication called "Government Business Opportunities" which is designed to give Canadian businesses fast and equal access to information about government contracting opportunities.

The adoption of OBS represents a major step toward fulfilling the government commitment to provide a contracting system that is fair, open and transparent. However by reducing the paper burden involved it also saves taxpayers an estimated $3.5 million annually.

This is one further example of how the application of electronic technology cannot only improve services but cut costs as well. Another application of technology in the business field is the department's electronic procurement and settlement system known as EPS. EPS links client departments within government to the suppliers and to a central control system allowing them to do business electronically, including ordering without requisitions, supplier payment without invoices and electronic journal vouchers without paper forms.

When this system is fully in place within the very near future, it will result in massive savings to the government and the taxpayer, estimated in the range of $176 million. It will create even greater savings for private sector suppliers, most of which will be passed along in the form of lower prices for government purchases.

These examples of the steps being taken to improve efficiency and service through new technologies indicate clearly that our government is living up to its commitment in this area. They also indicate the key role that the Department of Public Works and Government Services is playing in the process.

Initiatives such as the one I just described mean even more efficiency in government operations, better services to the

public, better access to the government by the public and less cost to the taxpayer.

Here are even more good reasons why we should pass Bill C-52 so as to give the department a clear, legislative mandate to continue its work in this area.

[Department Of Public Works And Government Services Act, October 5th, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, when our government took office a year ago we made a number of very specific commitments to the Canadian people.

Among them was a commitment to deal with questions of the efficiency of government-

[Criminal Code, September 22nd, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, I feel like I am going to a dance here. I thank the member opposite for allowing an opportunity to engage in this dialogue even though it is in a very structured environment.

I must say that I cannot think of very many acquaintances or friends who would want to open their houses to persons such as my friend is suggesting. However, it is not an idea that should be dismissed.

These are the types of creative ideas that I suggest this bill envisions. These amendments provide for great flexibility and versatility in terms of sentencing arrangements.

In Windsor, which is where I am from as members know I am sure by now, we have some very creative and excellent judges on our provincial court and our general division benches. Some have worked very hard to find alternative sentences within the limits of the current legislation.

As a result, we have seen in our community many community-based solutions that have been promulgated by those judges and by some programs and social workers whom we have in our community. The result is that we have had an opportunity in our community to look very closely at alternative sentencing structures.

This has been an eye opener for me as a criminal lawyer, both as prosecutor and as defence counsel. These have been very productive types of programs. I would suggest that my friend opposite has an idea that is worth exploring.

[Criminal Code, September 22nd, 1994]

Mr. Speaker, I happen to agree with the hon. member in terms of the basic premise that there should be lower taxes. I do not think there is anyone in this Chamber who would not like to be able to help lower taxes right away.

I also agree there are families now forced to have two incomes in order to make the same sort of home that our parents perhaps made with one income. There is no question about that. Let us not cross that line. Let us not assume that all families have two working parents because one of them is being forced to work.

There are many families that exist today because two parents want to work and have careers. That is a part of our changing society. I see heads nodding. I see some agreement, which is pleasant.

I must point out that without the social safety net we cannot provide the atmosphere in which these parents can work. That is why we need-this will be a little segue here-to have some form of national child care standards so we can make sure that families with two parents who want to seek careers can have the type of support they need for their children. Then they will know their children are secure and living in a healthy and safe environment and they can continue to pursue their total goal as a family unit.