Jean H. Leroux

[Supply, February 7th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Is the member reading his speech, asking a question or making a comment?

[Supply, February 7th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, first I want to congratulate the two Reform members who spoke on behalf of their party.

I have had the pleasure of working with the hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands whom, I think, is a true gentleman. The hon. member was in the military for a number of years. He knows the problems that plague the Canadian forces. We sat together on the joint committee. The hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands

knows what he is talking about when he discusses the morale of our troops.

I also want to congratulate the other member who spoke. I believe these people, like us, want to get at the truth.

At this point in time, it is estimated that the inquiry will have cost $25 million. However, the really sad thing is that we will still not know exactly what happened after, Canadians will not know how some tried to hide the facts, and this is an aberration. Canadians can accept the spending of money, provided it is done properly.

There is a problem in the Canadian forces. There are, and my party certainly agrees, extraordinary people in the military. There are people who work hard, but the morale of our troops is currently being undermined, and we think it is coming from the top. This is why we must do whatever is necessary.

What we are asking, and I see that the Reform Party agrees with us, is for an extension of a few months, not 10 years, just a few months.

I want to ask the hon. member if, based on his experience, he believes the Bloc Quebecois and the Reform Party are asking for a reasonable extension. Does he think this would allow us to get at the truth and then take the necessary steps to correct the situation?

[Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, February 7th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, the newspaper headlines spoke of an "Unprecedented crisis at CBC". Need I remind the minister of the words of her colleague at National Defence, who said the existence of the CBC is no longer justified?

[Supply, February 7th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the minister's comments when he said he was first and foremost a member of Parliament; how fortunate that he could participate in this debate.

On October 9, 1996, the minister said: "We want a thorough investigation of everything that happened in connection with the situation in Somalia- I am sure all members of this House-and no doubt he included himself-realize that one should not interfere with the work of the commission of inquiry". Well, to order the end of the inquiry, is that not to interfere with its work?

We are asking the minister and the government to let the inquiry carry on for a few more months. The minister says five or ten years. He talks about a document of historical scope. This is not what we are asking for. We simply ask that they grant an extension so that the inquiry can hear witnesses who have not been heard yet and who, we feel, are crucial to the whole issue.

Today, the minister, calm as always, spoke as an expert and tried to quietly sweep the whole issue under the rug. As you have surely noticed, this is not always the case, but it did happen today. He tried to explain the situation slowly and delicately; he spoke about the grassroots, he tried to appeal to our sympathy for those people in the forces.

We know that the people in the Canadian armed forces are professionals, the members of the official opposition do not question that. We only want to know what is happening because it seems that the rotten apples are in the top brass. They way things stand now, we will find out what happened before the incident and during the incident, but unfortunately, we will never know what happened after, we will not get to the bottom of the attempted coverup by this government; that is what we are concerned about. That is what Canadians are worried about these days.

[Supply, February 7th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate my colleague on his presentation. As you know, he was vice-chairman of the standing committee on national defence. He was also on the joint committee of the House of Commons and the Senate that proposed changes to the Canadian Armed Forces.

I have a question for him. Does he think that the current standing committee on national defence has changed from what he knew of it in the three years he was on it?

They will say anything across the way, but it is a well-known fact that Bloc members share in the activities and work very hard to move things along. I think the member opposite would do better to remain quiet and listen to the question.

I would like to ask my colleague from Charlesbourg whether he thinks the Canadian armed forces have changed? I would like him to explain.

[Supply, February 7th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, as we saw, the hon. member rambled on a wide variety of issues. He obviously was not well briefed on this issue.

All I want to say is that, when we look back on the history of the Canadian Armed Forces, we see that there are many shortcomings, a total lack of leadership, and that the measures undertaken by successive defence ministers did not settle anything. Quite the opposite, the situation is getting worse all the time.

We have a commission of inquiry which, I acknowledge, is costing us a lot of money, but it would not cost a whole lot more to let it continue its work. Unless the minister changes his mind, on March 31, the commission will start to prepare its report. So, from March 31 until June 30, nothing will happen, and on June 30, the commission will submit its report. This is totally unacceptable.

The work of the inquiry is not done. For six months, the armed forces tried to hamper the inquiry and hide the truth from it. Some documents were tampered with, others were shredded. Some were made to disappear. These people are professionals. Mr. Justice

Létourneau is an extraordinary man, who wants to get at the truth, just like every Canadian and Quebecer. We want to know the truth so we can correct the situation.

The hon. member is just babbling away. Once Quebec is sovereign, we will have armed forces based on what Canada currently has, which is why we want a solid and determined Canadian army, with good leadership and some kind of vision. When we send Canadians to keep the peace in other countries, we want them to be prepared and proud to act on behalf of all Canadians and Quebecers.

[Supply, February 7th, 1997]

moved:

That in the opinion of this House, the government should commit itself to having full light shed on the events occurring before, during and after the deployment of Canadian troops to Somalia, by extending the mandate of the Commission of Inquiry until December 31, 1997.

Mr. Speaker, on January 10, the Minister of National Defence announced he was putting an end to the Somalia inquiry, conducted by the Létourneau commission and designed to shed light on what happened before, during and after the incidents in Somalia.

Needless to say that, like many Canadians and Quebecers, the official opposition is very disappointed with this decision. Today, we will attempt to demonstrate to this House that extending the mandate of the commission is not only necessary but also beneficial to Canada as a whole.

When this commission was established, the Prime Minister of Canada stated, and I quote: "For the first time in a long time a government has had the courage to ask for an inquiry into the operations of national defence. Never has it been done before". This statement was made by the Prime Minister of Canada on September 16, 1996. He stated further: "In the meantime we have to respect the commission and let it finish its work. After that we will make our decision based on its recommendations".

At that time, the Prime Minister of Canada told us it was a precedent to establish a commission. But on January 10, the same government, through its Minister of National Defence, decided to put an end to the commission's deliberations. That too is a first in Canada. Never before has a government dared to shut down so abruptly an inquiry commissioned by itself.

Throughout this period, the Standing Committee on National Defence hardly ever met. Again, while this government felt it was important for the commission to get to the bottom of the incidents that occurred in Somalia, we realize today that this is not going to happen.

Of course, we will be hear about what happened before the incidents in Somalia, about how willing and prepared our troops were to be deployed to Somalia to fight on behalf of Canada. We will definitely be told about that. In the end, Canada was not ready. We decided to send troops over there, but they were not ready for the mission. We will probably also find out what happened, in terms of the actual events, including the two alleged murders that took place in Somalia. The inquiry's mandate was to restore the honour and the integrity of the Canadian forces.

I have the pleasure of sitting on the House joint committee with the hon. member for Charlesbourg, where we proposed a whole slew of amendments. I have been sitting on the defence committee for three years, and we are constantly being told that the morale of our troops is not good. Mr. Speaker, I want to advise you right now that I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Charlesbourg. As I was saying, morale was not good three years ago and it is no better today. It has not been good for a long time, I think.

The inquiry must find out why the morale of our troops has deteriorated so much. This is what matters. It is as though the defence minister and the Prime Minister finally decided that the Létourneau commission was not important, that it would make recommendations, but that- So, the minister decided to set up another committee to look at the issue of morale, without waiting for the inquiry's findings. And this is tragic.

The truth is that this government set up the inquiry in the hope that the Conservatives, the previous government, would suffer the political damage. However, the more the inquiry moves along, the more obvious it is that there are links with this government and that the period yet to be reviewed would involve friends of the government, friends that the government does not want singled out.

Remember the great search of April 9, 1996. Commander in chief Boyle decided that a thorough search would be conducted everywhere, even in garbage cans, filing cabinets, under chairs, in tanks, etc. to find documents that had been lost. This exercise was just a big farce and Canadians know that. For six months, the

Canadian forces refused to co-operate and, all of a sudden, a "search day" was declared.

That day, everyone from the top brass on down turned everything inside out in an attempt to find the documents. For six months the Canadian armed forces had been refusing to co-operate with the commission. But the main reason this inquiry was set up was to see what went on afterwards. That is what is important. When you want to correct a situation, when you want to improve the morale of the troops, do you not have to find out what is not working?

Who is it they want to protect? There are some very important people who will not be able to take part, whom it will not be possible to call as witnesses. First of all, there is Robert Fowler, who was deputy minister under the Liberals, the Conservatives and again under the Liberals, a survivor. Now he is Canada's ambassador to the UN. It will not be possible to call him to appear before the commission; there will unfortunately not be time. He is probably one person who knows quite a bit about the affair. There are others. There is also John Anderson, chief of defence staff when the events occurred. He was named ambassador to NATO. He is another one who will not be questioned.

There is former Prime Minister Kim Campbell, who will also not appear before the commission. She is consul general in Los Angeles. So this person, who said she was intimidated at the time, was told: "Hold on there! If you want it to go well for you, keep your lip zipped".

What are they doing now? It is very simple. I would describe the Minister of National Defence as the government's firefighter. Members will recall this minister's career; he was at transport. He decided that there would be no more trains in Canada. Then he was sent to human resources; he was the one who decided to close down employment centres all over the country. He did the dirty work. Now he is at the defence department to do the same thing. They have decided to put a lid on it.

They had realized that the Liberal government would take quite a beating. Members will recall what the Prime Minister told us. That was the first time they had set up such a commission of inquiry. It is probably also the first time they have wrapped one up so quickly.

It is for this reason that the Bloc Quebecois, Canada's official opposition until the next election, and aware of its responsibilities as the opposition, is asking the government to change its mind.

In closing, I will read you the motion, which says:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should commit itself to having full light shed on the events occurring before, during and after the deployment of Canadian troops to Somalia, by extending the mandate of the Commission of Inquiry until December 31, 1997.

If this is not done, we will never know the truth, and it will never be over. We will have thrown away $25 million without even knowing what really happened.

[Royal Military College In Kingston, February 6th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, according to our sources, the astronomical costs at Kingston prove only one thing: it was a mistake to close down the military college in Saint-Jean, where military training was provided to officer cadets at a much lower cost.

Are we to understand that, once again, the government is unable to admit it made a mistake, to the point where it would rather just keep spending and spending, while French-speaking members of the armed forces suffer?

[Royal Military College In Kingston, February 6th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence.

In an attempt to divert attention from the unforgivable mistake of shutting down the only French language military college in the country, the government is promising phenomenal savings. Just recently, we learned that the operating costs of the college in Kingston were higher than ever and that the training costs, per student, were in excess of $76,000, much higher than in St-Jean.

Could the Minister of National Defence explain why no one can tell us with any accuracy how much the college in Kingston is costing us every year? Figures like $30 million, $50 million and $90 million have been tossed around. What is the budget of the college in Kingston?

[Somalia Inquiry, February 4th, 1997]

Mr. Speaker, when he appeared before the Commission as a witness last week, the Chief of the Defence Staff literally insulted the commissioners and prosecutors by attacking their work. This was an obvious attempt to discredit the Commission and, according to Justice Létourneau, the Chief of the Defense Staff came very close to being cited for contempt of court.

Is the Minister of National Defence's rush to prevent the Commission from hearing more witnesses not the result of pressure from the Acting Chief of the Defence Staff, who has had enough of watching Armed Forces personnel answer the commissioner's questions?