Crucial Fact

  • His favourite word was reform.

Last in Parliament April 1997, as Reform MP for Kindersley—Lloydminster (Saskatchewan)

Lost his last election, in 1997, with 33% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Budget Implementation Act, 1995 March 30th, 1995

Madam Speaker, it saddens me that we have to debate Bill C-76 today. This bill implements laws allowing the government to put Canadians another $32.7 billion in debt. It saddens me even more that the government feels this is acceptable. It is not acceptable. It is a deplorable act of financial incompetence of a weak kneed government.

The government borrowed a few pages from Reform's taxpayers budget in order to cut spending in some areas. The Liberals only did half the job, however. They would have been much better off following all of our suggestions, not just a few select pages. A lot of the rhetoric was right, but a lot of the numbers were wrong.

Because of the Liberal's failure to make all of the necessary cuts to get Canada back on track to financial good health, we continue on the debt treadmill. The budget is the minimum possible budget. The Liberals cut only enough to compensate for the additional interest charges their over spending has created.

The net effect of the bill which implements a budget that creates a greater indebtedness is before us, and deficit financing continues into the future. The only reason the deficit goes down at all is that the Liberals plan to take over $10 million more out of the economy.

Even if everything goes their way, they will still have a $25 billion deficit which is unacceptably high. The finance minister and the Liberals do not get it. The Minister of Human Resources Development seems to think the role of government is to continually come up with new and exciting forms of taxation. The Minister of Finance hesitated to rule out the Tobin tax or any other new taxes. This is the best way to bankrupt a country. The government simply cannot solve the nation's financial mess by taking more out of the economy through taxation.

No nation has ever spent and borrowed its way to prosperity. Quite the opposite is true. Many great nations and empires have fallen because of the growth of government and taxation. Perhaps the most prominent among them is the Roman Empire. When faced with the oncoming barbarian hordes, many of the outlying states decided to throw their lot in with the barbarians, saying: "Better the barbarians we do not know than the taxes we do know".

Not only some in Quebec but some folks in the western provinces are using the huge debt and growing taxation as a platform for seceding from the federation. For the sake of national unity we need to eliminate the deficit quickly.

As well, the only way the Liberals will ever be in a position to bring taxes down is to completely eliminate the deficit. We know they will not do it by 1996-97. If the Liberals have a plan to do it after that, they will not share it with Canadians. This is bad news for the Deputy Prime Minister. She made quite a performance out of announcing that she would resign if the GST were not gone within a year. They cannot bring down taxes while running a deficit, so I suppose her career is over. That is a shame. I am sure the House will miss her shrill voice and her partisan, illogical grandstanding. She has looked after herself, however, with a generous two tiered MP pension plan.

As well as being a bad budget for the Liberal Party it is also a very bad budget for Canada. That is the important matter I want to deal with this morning. Apart from the negative impact of continued debt and taxation, the budget creates some inequities in the country.

The cuts made by the government have a very lopsided impact. For instance, the agricultural industry in western Canada is hit harder than any other industry. The loss of the Crow benefit will have obvious long term effects on the industry. The gasoline tax will hit farmers particularly hard. Farming is a very fuel intensive industry and travel is a necessity in rural areas. The government has increased the input costs for farmers, increased the cost of getting the product to market and offered no hope of tax reduction in the future.

Farmers realize many of these things are necessary in order to save the country from financial collapse. What angers farmers is that so many others got off so easily in the budget. If everyone had been hit as hard as agriculture, the budget would have been balanced. We would have had something to show for our effort.

For years farmers have been saying they do not mind doing their share and losing the rail subsidy if other subsidized agencies do the same. Farmers have been hit with a 30 per cent loss to their safety net programs and the entire loss of their transportation subsidy in the west.

At the same time the CBC only gets kicked with a 4 per cent reduction in its subsidy. Does the government feel that a 4 per cent cut to the CBC is comparable to a 100 per cent cut to grain transportation?

The removal of the Crow subsidy appears to have been a last minute decision. It appears pressure was put on the minister of agriculture to find more savings and so he axed the Crow without thinking through and planning for the implications. The minister of agriculture calls it a buy out, but the value of the WGTA is much higher. Some suggest it is more like $7 billion rather than $1.6 billion. He should have more accurately called a Crow buy off at fire sale prices because the federal purse has been mismanaged for so many years by Liberal and Conservative finance ministers they simply do not have the money for a real buy out.

For years the Reform Party has been calling for a long term plan for moving the agriculture industry toward a market system. The government has had a year and a half in office to plan for this transition but it has done nothing.

The government waited until the last moment and then sprung this crow buy off on farmers with almost no warning and no plan for implementation. To date the minister of agriculture has not been clear on who the buy out money is to be paid to, how the amount will be calculated, what the tax implications of the pay out will be for farmers or any of the other dozens of questions that my constituents and farmers across the west are asking.

I am starting to believe the minister's offices cannot answer these questions because it has not even thought through many of these problems yet. The elimination of the Crow benefit has been poorly designed, very ad hoc and in a desperate manner. The minister of agriculture campaigned on the red book promises to develop a long term plan for agriculture.

I want to take a few minutes to look at what the Liberal red book says and what the minister of agriculture has been saying to Canadians. In the red book the Liberal government promised to develop an overall policy for the agri-food sector which will build upon three component strategies: developing new domestic and international markets for Canadian food products; reducing input costs to make farming more viable; introducing a new whole farm income stabilization program that assists farm families to secure their long term future.

The one that jumped off the page when I looked at it was reducing input costs to producers. The government is increasing the input costs to producers. It is doing it through taxation on fuel and by its continued borrowing of money that has to be paid back through both interest charges and principal eventually; farmers have to play a role as they are generators of the GNP.

The red book went on to say that it would preserve policies and programs such as supply management. As soon as the Liberals were elected they were forced to change the nature of supply management as a result of the GATT agreement. Reformers knew this was coming. The whole world knew it was coming. The only people who seemed to think it was not coming were the Liberals. They campaigned they would preserve supply management in the state it was in before the GATT agreement. That was absolutely misinformation to give to the Canadian public. It is unfortunate they would perpetuate this type of propaganda in their election campaign.

They also said they would craft stabilization programs to minimize the impact of market price fluctuations; government support in developing new commercial markets for commodities in which the agri-food industry has a competitive advantage; sustainable agriculture practices to maintain and improve the quality of land and water; emission oriented research to increase productivity and create quality products to meet market demand.

They are very nice words but where is the beef? We have not seen anything yet from the minister of agriculture and there is certainly nothing in the implementation of the budget that would indicate that any of these promises in the red book are about to be fulfilled.

In the first throne speech agriculture was not even mentioned. It certainly does not seem to be a very high priority with the government.

Actions speak louder than words. Let us look at the record of the agriculture minister and the government since they came into power. As far as agriculture was concerned, 1994 was a year of indecision and inaction. It will be remembered by most as a year comprised of consultation and study groups that were not intended to be genuine but rather as a way of avoiding making tough decisions.

Issues that were pursued through legislation in the House were rather insignificant and inconsequential such as Bill C-49, the department of agriculture reorganization bill, Bill C-50, the Canadian Wheat Board research check-off act, Bill C-51, amendments to the Canada Grains Act, certainly not of any consequence to the industry.

Outside the House of Commons the minister of agriculture was heavily criticized over his handling of the durum wheat dispute with the Americans. After months of posturing the federal government caved into the American demands that Canada place self-imposed caps on shipments of wheat to the United States.

The minister also reneged on the promise he and the Prime Minister made during the election campaign. They made the promise they would hold a referendum on the future of the Canadian Wheat Board and barley marketing. They did not carry out that promise.

For 1995 the minister of agriculture is again making some promises and we will be watching to see whether he carries them out. He said in the Western Producer of January 5, 1995: ``It is a year when we can really see the turning of a corner on a lot of issues. I think 1995 will be a very active and vigorous year in which a number of these issues will come to a head and be dealt with''.

We are well into 1995 and to this point we have not seen very much positive by way of performance by the minister of agriculture. There certainly does not seem to be much in the budget to get excited about.

The minister of agriculture in 1994 delayed introducing legislation that would end the backtracking of grain from Thunder Bay to the west. It is a very costly and terrible practice which he had the power to correct. He said he would but then delayed the implementation of the act which would correct this problem and cost producers more money.

From the Western Producer on November 17, 1994 the minister said: ``I cannot tell you what the amount of the Crow benefit will be. I have to tell you in all candour and honesty that I will expect the number to be somewhat lower and that is a product of the harsh fiscal reality we are living in at this time''.

The minister was still giving farmers some indication the Crow benefit would be with us. When this budget came down, which we are implementing through Bill C-56, the Crow was gone. Why was the minister indicating payment would only be reduced when it would be eliminated? These were not the signals farmers needed to make decisions over the winter months as to how they would operate their farms in the current crop year.

Another very interesting issue important to agriculture producers goes far beyond the agricultural industry; it affects all exporters, transportation of our product to port.

I again quote the minister of agriculture from the Western Producer , March 10, 1994: I do not want to jump to conclusions about what is needed''. This was with regard to labour problems that plague the grain transportation system:I do not want to jump to conclusions about what is needed but I merely observe that it is important that all the players work on a way to

avoid this ever happening again in the future. The situation where losses occur for the grain industry because of a dispute outside their control is not acceptable".

That was a little over a year ago. He said it was not acceptable, that we had to deal with the west coast port labour dispute and lockout. As we very well know, we had to deal with the issue of the west coast ports again and the rail strike.

When the minister said it was not acceptable, the problem is he realized it was not acceptable but he did not do anything about it. What is really sad is that he had the opportunity to do something about it. He could have supported the hon. member for Lethbridge when he introduced Bill C-262 in the House. It was a votable motion. The Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food could have supported it. It would have legislated final offer arbitration for essential services such as the transport of grain to tidewater from the farm gate. The minister of agriculture recognized the problem was unacceptable. He had the opportunity to do something about it and he failed to do it. That is unacceptable to western grain producers.

With respect to research for agriculture, the minister of agriculture said it is fundamental and needs to rank very high in what we do in the future:

I have not yet had the tough conversation I expect I will have at some point with the Minister of Finance. If you are inconsistent in your research objectives or your research funding you can do a lot of long term damage. I would like to be able to reallocate resources within the department of agriculture should that prove necessary, to make sure that vital things like research do not get fundamentally undermined in the process of reworking the budget. I actually would like to see the situation (funding levels) improved. That may be a bit ambitious in the short run in the face of necessary restraint but the fundamental objective for the long term has to be to increase research and development.

That is from the Western Producer of January 27, 1994.

In the budget the minister did not follow through on his commitment. The way I would interpret it is that he was saying: "I do not think I can increase funding for research. I will going have a tough conversation with the Minister of Finance. Certainly we are not going to reduce it".

What the finance minister did in the last budget was cut funding to agriculture research. He is asking the private sector to make up the difference. Perhaps that is a fair request. We could debate that in the House. The problem is the minister of agriculture said something else. He did not follow through on what he said. Not only did he cut funding for research, he also cut seven research station facilities across Canada.

He also said research for the smaller sectors of agriculture would be those hardest hit. What if that had been our policy in the past? There would have been no research to develop canola, one of the greatest assets in the western regions. Perhaps we would not have developed the lentil market we have had we followed the agriculture minister's policy. Perhaps because of his policy we will not develop the herbs and spices market to its full potential. That is a step which would harm diversification rather than assist it. The minister said he is committed to diversification and a broadening of the scope of agriculture. The agriculture minister's actions and his words do not line up.

I would like to return to the situation of supply management. What has happened is very unfortunate. Specifically on on article XI the minister of agriculture stated:

It is no secret that there is not a great deal of support for our position among the other GATT members. But we will continue to fight for that position. Our bottom line is that we will do what we have to to protect supply management.

It was obvious to the whole world, surely it was obvious to the finance minister, that Canada stood alone in its defence of article XI and that there were to be changes. The agriculture minister should have done the responsible thing and communicated the reality of the situation to agriculture producers. He should have done that before the election rather than waiting until after the election. Now their support is so slim they can do nothing whatsoever and they will have to go along with the changes proposed in the GATT agreement in 1994.

With respect to international trade, in campaign ads in his attempt to win the Liberal nomination in Regina-Wascana in 1988, his material contained the following:

This election will be the most crucial in our lifetime. It demands strong, decisive action to stop the bad Mulroney trade deal which threatens our future and our very way of life.

That is from the Leader-Post of September 15, 1988.

As the whole world knows, we need trade agreements. More of them are being put in place every day. We also know the Liberal government, including the minister of agriculture, campaigned against the free trade agreement. However, once the Liberals got into power they did nothing to change it although they said they would change it. They said they had wonderful changes planned for the North American free trade agreement. Once they got into power they made no changes whatsoever. Again, what the agriculture minister said and his actions were two separate things.

During the 1988 free trade debate the agriculture minister said that the current Minister of Finance and he stood strongly against the trade deal. He said it was not a fair deal but a sellout of our nation. How could it be a sellout in 1988 and then supported in 1993?

There are some real positive aspects to the North American free trade deal. Certainly it is not the perfect deal. Maybe there is no such perfect deal. The problem is that the minister of agriculture and the Liberal government flip-flopped on the issue. They did not keep their word. It is very unfortunate that we do not know what direction we can take from the words of the agriculture minister and his colleagues.

I would like to read one more quote with regard to the durum wheat dispute last year with the Americans. The agriculture minister said:

Those on the other side of the border who might think that action can be taken against Canada with no consequences, should think again. There will be consequences-I want our American trading partners to know that Canada is not going to roll over and play dead-For every action there will be a reaction.

That is a quote from the Ottawa Citizen dated March 30, 1994.

In the newspaper The Western Producer the minister said: ``No deal is better than a bad deal''. That was April 16, 1994. As we know, the minister of agriculture caved into the Americans and agreed to export restrictions of 50 per cent of previous exports to the United States of Canadian durum. Again that is very regrettable. Again the minister of agriculture did not match his actions and his words.

I want to read one final quote regarding the agriculture minister because the Canadian people need to be aware of this. It is with regard to deficit reduction. As members know, for some time Reformers have called for the government to come to grips with the deficit. I have a very interesting statement made by the minister of agriculture in the past with regard to the deficit. He said it is more than irresponsible, it is immoral. Those are the words of the agriculture minister.

I agree with the minister of agriculture. It is immoral to pass on the deficit and debt to future generations. However, the agriculture minister is part of a government that is adding billions of dollars to the debt by annual deficits, last year, in the current budget and in the one that is projected for next year.

I have three primary criticisms of the Crow buy-off in the Liberal budget. I would like to put those on record. First, the government's action on the Crow benefit comes as too little, too late. Three years ago Reformers suggested that the funds for the transportation subsidy for grain should be rolled over into a trade distortion adjustment program that would protect producers from damage received as a result of the grain trade wars. We did not hide this information. It was very public. The Liberals had access to it when they came to power. They determined that they would stick with the old Crow until they could bargain it away in the GATT negotiations when they had no cards left to play in the deck.

Second, the government should have designed and introduced a transition plan prior to the discontinuance of the Crow benefit, not a year or more after it ends. It seems incomprehensible that the federal government would end the Crow benefit on July 31, 1995 and then say it is going to introduce a transition program in the 1996-97 fiscal year. That is really putting the cart before the horse. The Liberals are going to eliminate something and then not have any idea what they are going to put in place for transition. I cannot fathom that thinking.

Third, the government is justified in reducing support to agriculture if, and only if, it reduces spending in other departments and programs by equal amounts so that farmers do not carry an unfair portion of the pain caused by fiscal restraint. This has not happened. In many cases, which I will mention in a few minutes, the federal government has actually increased spending. This is unacceptable. The minister of agriculture has obviously not considered those most vulnerable to the loss of the Crow, namely young renters. I have had many calls from young farmers in my constituency who are renters. They will lose at both ends with the Crow buy-off. First, they are not recipients of the $1.6 billion buyout. Second, they will bear the cost for the additional transportation with the ending of the subsidy. This is truly regrettable because often these young farmers have a pretty tight cash flow situation and low equity. They are not able to go to their banker and command the same infusion of cash for their operations. It is very difficult for them to plan to farm again this year.

I want to really stress this. I am not complaining about the cuts in support to agriculture. I will say it again so that it is clear to the House. I am not complaining about the cuts in support to agriculture. Probably Reform would have done some of the cutting differently and I think better.

I want to point an accusing finger at the government because it did not level with Canadians about the way cuts would be made. It did not level with farmers about how cuts would be made. Particularly it did not level with the western grain farmers about how cuts would be made. It did not level with supply management about how it would deal with that industry. It failed to fulfil its promises. That is truly regrettable.

While farmers took a triple whammy in the budget, the government continues to subsidize special interest and advocacy groups such as the National Action Committee on the Status of Women and others. It continues to provide huge tax breaks and subsidies to big business and doles out millions to western economic diversification and other regional agencies. The Lib-

erals are still planning on sending billions of dollars overseas while cutting programs for Canadians.

I thought it would be interesting to go through the budget and the estimates for this year and take a look at the areas where spending is actually rising. The result is quite interesting and I would like to share my findings with the House.

Spending by the Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation will rise by about 70 per cent from last year to $17.5 million. The Canadian Museum of Civilization will receive 22 per cent more, bringing the total to $46.2 million. The Canadian Museum of Nature's budget goes up by 33 per cent to almost $25 million. The National Gallery of Canada gets a 23 per cent increase to bring its budget to over $33 million. The list continues. The National Museum of Science and Technology gets a 25 per cent increase to $20.5 million. The Status of Women Co-ordinator gets a-wow-322 per cent increase to $15.2 million. I know that farm women do not support that increase to the budget for the status of women.

The increase to the Immigration and Refugee Board, $11 million. Perhaps it is to install more hidden cameras. This is very interesting. The finance department gets a $9.7 billion increase. With a bigger deficit and a bigger debt comes a bigger finance department. That is a real reward for incompetence.

The Canadian International Trade Tribunal receives a $500 million increase. The Federal Office Regional Development Quebec, $34 million; the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, $38,000; the Ministry of Fisheries and Oceans, $121 million. Maybe he will be able to buy some more extravagant furniture with the increase in his budget.

National Health and Welfare is receiving an extra $321 million. It is spending more money while services are eroding. The Medical Research Council, $2 million; Statistics Canada, $5.5 million; the justice department $500,000; Indian and northern affairs, $285 million. That one year's increase is equal to a six-year Crow transition fund. It is just appalling. The Federal Judicial Affairs Commissioner, $1 million; the Tax Court of Canada, $180,000; the Atomic Energy Control Board, $165,000.

The Senate of Canada, $1,000. It actually gets an increase and its members do not even show up for work most days. The Privy Council Department, $4.5 million. More money for the people who brought us the Fowler-Doyle affair. The Canadian Intergovernmental Secretariat, $250,000; the National Round Table on Environment and the Economy is a new agency and its entire $3.3 million budget is new spending. The security intelligence review committee, $6,000, more money to reward recent poor performance; the correctional service, $50 million; the RCMP, $10 million; the RCMP external review committee, $91,000; civil aviation tribunal, an extra $15,000; Treasury Board Secretariat, an extra $32 million; western economic diversification, an extra $26 million.

All of this is new spending. Those departments and agencies are all having their budgets increased while farmers are taking it in the neck. It is not fair.

Overall government spending has moved up since the Liberals took power. In 1993-94 total government spending was $158 billion. The Liberals came to power. In 1994-95 it was $160.3 billion. That is an increase. This year in the budget it is projected to be $163.5 billion. Spending is increasing. It is not decreasing despite some of the spin doctor campaigns that the Liberals are promoting to say that they are reducing the deficit and cutting spending. They are actually increasing spending.

The government has sent a clear message that it feels special interest groups, business subsidies, regional patronage handouts and foreign aid are all more important than the agriculture sector. The budget is nothing more than a raid on the income of hard working Canadians so the Liberals can continue to fund their pet projects with $1 billion of additional tax revenues to help them along.

The budget is a failure. It fails to get Canada off the debt treadmill. It fails to demonstrate that we can avoid hitting the wall. We are already seeing the ill effects of the budget in the value of our currency. The U.S. dollar is plummeting versus other international currencies and our dollar is losing ground to the Americans. The Canadian peso, as it is becoming known, is at constant risk and interest rates may rise because of the weak budget.

It is interesting that the minister of public works is planning to issue a $2 coin. It indicates how little value our currency holds. Soon a coke machine will require a two buck piece for a can of the real thing. The coke will know doubt be more real than the money we use to buy it.

In an effort to prevent a rout on the Canadian dollar and a decrease in our credit rating, the Minister of Finance, the Prime Minister and other members of cabinet have been trotting around the world trying to convince our creditors that we are still a good credit risk. The very fact that our status is in question demonstrates the seriousness of the problem caused by the government and its Liberal and Conservative predecessors.

The best way to sum up the budget is to read a poem written by Dr. John Robson. The poem is based on Casey at the Bat by Earnest Lawrence Thayer. Dr. Robson apologizes to Mr. Thayer for sullying his poem by including Liberals in it. I would like to read the poem to the House. It is called Marty at the Bat :

It looked extremely rocky for Canadians that day; The deficit was growing; how short time was none could say. So when Wilson died on OAS, and The Maz did the same, A pallor wreathed the features of the patrons of the game. A straggling few then went off shore, leaving there the rest, With that hope which springs eternal within the human breast. For they thought: "If only Marty could get a whack at that," They'd put even money now, with Marty at the bat. But the PM controlled Marty, and Coppsie always sounding off, And the former was a pudd'n, the latter face down in the trough. So on that stricken multitude a deathlike silence sat; For there seemed but little chance of Marty's getting to the bat. But the PM gave him Finance, to the wonderment of all. And the much-despised Coppsie saw her influence free-fall. And when the dust had lifted, and they saw what had occurred, The HRD man had folded, and Marty could ride herd. Then from the gladdened multitude went up a joyous yell- It rumbled in the mountaintops, it rattled in the dell; It struck upon the hillside and rebounded on the flat; For Marty, mighty Marty, was advancing to the bat. There was ease in Marty's manner as he stepped into his place, There was pride in Marty's bearing and a smile on Marty's face; And when responding to the cheers he lightly doffed his hat, No stranger in the crowd could doubt 'twas Marty at the bat. Ten million eyes were on him as he rubbed his hands with ink, Five million tongues applauded when he sat him down to think; Then when the writhing Moody's ground the rating in its hip, Defiance glanced in Marty's eye, a sneer curled Marty's lip. And now the budget '94 came hurtling through the air, And Marty stood a-watching it in haughty grandeur there. Close by the sturdy batsman the deficit unheeded sped; No need for haste,' said Marty;Strike one,' the markets said. From the benches, black with Lib'rals, went up a muffled roar, Like the beating of vast spending when the tax can rise no more. Kill him! Kill the lender!' shouted someone in the stand; And they might well have defaulted, had not Marty raised his hand. With a smile of Liberal charity, great Marty's visage shone; He stilled the rising tumult, he made the game go on; He produced no mini-budget, and once more tax dollars flew; But Marty still ignored it, and the markets said,Strike two.' Fraud!' cried the maddened Lib'rals, and the echo answered,Fraud!' But one scornful look from Marty and the audience was awed; They saw his face grow stern and cold, they saw his muscles strain, And they knew their Marty wouldn't let his chance go by again. The sneer is gone from Marty's lips, his spreadsheet's clenched in hate, He swears he'll cut most drastically, before it is too late; It comes to budget time again, the deficit still high; And Marty swings beneath the ball, and hits an infield fly. Oh, somewhere in this favoured land the sun is shining bright, I think it's in Reformland where Presto has got it right; And somewhere children laugh, and adults raise a festive cup, But there is no joy in Canada-Paul Martin has popped up.

This budget implemented by Bill C-76 raises taxes. It increases the debt by over $100 billion over three years. It offers no hope of tax relief to Canadians. No member of this House who has any concern for the welfare of their children and grandchildren can support a bill that enables the government to increase the debt load and therefore the future tax load we are leaving for them.

I call on all members of this House to join with my Reform colleagues and me to defeat this budget implementation act. Canada and Canadians deserve better.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act, 1995 March 29th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, in listening to the member for Kingston and the Islands respond to the hon. member for Bellechasse he was arguing for and against himself. He reiterated what I said in my speech.

He alluded a bit to some constitutional changes that would be necessary if we were to reduce the number of members in the House. We discussed this in committee. As the member for Calgary West very adequately explained to the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands, any constitutional changes would be minimal and could be done within the confines of the House. They do not require the very complicated and difficult amending formula to authorize the changes. It would be necessary to deal with the grandfather clause which prohibits an equitable reduction in the size of the House.

The hon. member for Calgary Centre, who had some input at committee in the bill, used California as an example of a jurisdiction in the United States with a population equal to the population of our entire country which at the federal level only has, if I remember correctly, 56 federal members to represent nearly 30 million people.

His argument that we need 294 MPs at the federal level to adequately administer this country does not hold water. Both our system and our capabilities are equal or perhaps superior to those of the politicians in the state of California.

I have a concern the hon. member did not address and to which I would like him to respond. We have thrown away $5 million. We are going to draw new maps after the bill is passed. Given the population shift in the province of Ontario, I am quite sure that the results may be very similar to the results we saw when the maps came out in the former process. In those maps northern Ontario lost one seat. Perhaps now with the population changes it will lose two seats and the hon. member for Cochrane-Superior will have a larger riding and another member will not have a riding at all.

How is the hon. member's government going to respond when the maps come out again? The results could be even less favourable to his members than they were this past time. Will they again demand changes? Is the government going to again delay the process and bring in new legislation to try to get the maps drawn the way those members want them?

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act, 1995 March 29th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, we are now debating Bill C-69 for the last time in the House. The bill is consequential of Bill C-18 from some time ago and the perceived need to redraw the act which allowed the commissions to redistribute the ridings in various provinces.

The bill is a result of the Liberal fiasco of interrupting the boundary redistribution with Bill C-18. The fiasco was started because Liberal members did not like the new maps produced by the commissions. Making a show out of calling for a fundamental review of the redistribution process, the government ordered new boundary maps drawn under new rules, costing Canadian taxpayers more than $5 million in wasted commission reports.

Although there have been some minor improvements to the process of selecting boundary commissioners and publicizing the process, no substantial change to the composition of the boundary readjustment commissions, no substantial change to their powers and no substantial change to the method of drawing boundaries are proposed by Bill C-69. All the changes made to the redistribution act could have been made without throwing out the maps produced at great cost.

This whole exercise was a crass political manoeuvre on the part of the Liberals hoping to have boundary lines redrawn closer to their liking. There was no requirement for the redistribution process to be suspended and for the expensive work to be thrown out in order to examine the process.

Notwithstanding the minor technical improvements made to the act, the bill should be defeated by the House for two major reasons. Bill C-69 fails to address the problem of a rapidly growing House of Commons and it lays suspect the concept of equality of vote as a guiding principle in the redistribution process. The bill does not move the House of Commons any closer to respecting the mandate of representation by population, the cornerstone principle for a lower House in a bicameral system.

What is interesting about these two failures is that the Liberal members of the procedure and House affairs committee were initially in favour of tighter variances and a capped or reduced number of seats in the House of Commons. Capping or reducing the number was a major part of the mandate the House gave to the procedure and House affairs committee.

Witnesses were brought in from all over the country to discuss this issue with us. Many of the Liberals on the committee agreed that the restrictions on the size of the House were a good idea.

Allow me to give members a few examples. Going back to our procedure and House affairs committee meetings of last summer, on July 7 the member for Scarborough-Rouge River, a very active member during this entire process, said: "I have always been in favour of the view that the House should be taking control of its numbers. We ought to, by formula or in another way, be capping the size of the House of Commons. I am in favour of capping, whether it is 250, 300 or something over 300. It is not a big problem".

It seems pretty clear the member for Scarborough-Rouge River was in favour of dealing with the issue of the growth of the House. He was not alone on the Liberal side of the table. At the same meeting the member for Ontario said: "I too support any initiative that might have the effect of limiting or capping the number of seats".

The member for Vancouver Quadra, very experienced in matters of riding redistribution and constitutional considerations, added: "I have no problem at all with capping". He was clear we had to recognize some of the difficulties in doing it.

The Reform members on the committee were able to satisfactorily answer those concerns. The pattern of support for the idea of a smaller or capped House continued into the fall. In our meeting on October 20 the member for Scarborough-Rouge River again indicated his support for the concept: "I oppose further growth in the House without any restrictions. I tend to be in favour of a capping arrangement at some point and I very much want to see that issue addressed".

It is very strange the member has spoken in favour of and has supported the bill at all stages even though that issue is not addressed at all.

The chairman of the procedure and House affairs committee, the member for Kingston and the Islands, wanted to shirk all responsibility for capping the House and leave the problem to a future Parliament.

The Liberal dominated 51st report from the committee says: "Many members of the committee reluctantly came to the conclusion that a cap or reduction in the size of the House of Commons is not feasible at this time".

I got a very different impression from many of the Liberal members during the committee hearings. Reformers demonstrated that a House based on 265 members plus a few more to account for senatorial limitations is workable. We included this in our minority opinion, an opinion the Liberal brass ordered defeated.

On October 20 the member for Vancouver Quadra added: "I think many of us would like a more compact House. This House certainly architecturally has been stretched to the breaking point".

This is all very interesting but when faced with a vote on the issue in that very meeting, all Liberal members voted against a reduced House or a House frozen at 295 members. They all

voted for a House that grows to 301, the status quo formula for continued growth.

Their personal support for capping the House continued. As late as November 1 the member for Scarborough-Rouge River said in committee: "We should be addressing the size of the House in our report. I do not think as a committee we have nailed that one down yet". He added at a later meeting of the committee on November 22: "It would be naive to leave this issue without discussing the size of the House".

It was at this point that the chair, speaking for the government, indicated that it would be better to leave the problem of a growing House to some future Parliament. This comment seemed to concern the Liberal members who thought that capping or reducing was a good idea.

The member for Mississauga West who also participated in our deliberations wondered why the next Parliament should be asked to investigate the problem: "Is there any good reason why we cannot do it?"

The answer to that is a very loud and resounding no, there is no good reason the bill could not have contained provisions to cap or reduce the size of the House of Commons, other than a lack of political will on the part of the government to deal with a controversial issue that would be acceding to the wishes of Canadians.

Her comments that day were reinforced by her colleague from Vancouver Quadra when he agreed with her that the work on the problem of size should start now. All of these comments are in the committee transcripts.

There was a very real level of non-partisan agreement that capping and reducing the House was in order. The Liberal members of the committee wanted it and the Reform members of the committee wanted it. My friend from Mississauga West was absolutely right when she said: "I think the Canadian public wants us to limit the size of the House". It seems that the only people who do not want it are those in the government inner circle who really call the shots.

It is always interesting to hear what any given government member thinks about a particular issue and then compare their response after a caucus meeting or after the whip has had a chance to talk to them. Time after time we see them mysteriously changing their minds about what is in the public interest.

I noted with interest that the hon. member for Bellechasse was surprised that the Liberals had changed their minds. I do not understand that. Liberals have been changing their minds ever since this country was established in 1867. There is nothing they stand for and there is everything they stand for; it is whatever is convenient at the time.

It is time that the House and the government acted on principle, on what is right and on what is in the best interests of the Canadian public. It should consult with the Canadian public rather than flim-flamming around from one position to another, depending on the whims of the inner circle of the Liberal Party.

There seemed to be a pretty clear consensus among Liberals that capping and reducing the size of the House was a good idea. Why then was the issue suddenly and strangely dropped from the committee report, the bill which the government introduced, and all subsequent comments from those Liberal members? Suddenly, it was not an issue any more.

The answer is quite clear. They were whipped into line by the party brass. The red book promises of giving ordinary members of Parliament more autonomy and control over committee and House business is demonstrably dead. It is one more example that the red book promises of open government and restoring integrity were nothing more than tricks designed to win support from a public weary of unethical politicians. How else can the Liberals explain the practice of standing firm on an opinion one day and then voting it down on the next?

It was the same with the back to work legislation which the House dealt with last week. Many government members spoke in favour of designing legislation that would prevent costly strikes which damage the economy. Then they voted against the bill introduced by the hon. member for Lethbridge which would have done just that. Then within 24 hours the same members stood in support of the bill legislating an end to the crippling rail strike. It just does not make sense. It is pure partisan politics at its worst.

It is exactly the kind of top-down decision making Canadians from coast to coast are sick of. It is the Charlottetown accord approach to making decisions. They are trying to impose their will on Canadians. The Liberals are demonstrating that they hold a very low opinion of the thoughts of their own backbenchers. They expect them to act like trained seals, to always toe the party line and to vote when and how they are told to.

We saw exactly the same thing when we were discussing the allowable variance from the provincial population quotient, which is also a part of Bill C-69. Several government members expressed support for the idea of making constituencies, as close as possible, equal in population.

The member for Mississauga West went so far as to vote in favour of a Reform suggestion to move to a 15 per cent variance in population quotient. In our committee meeting on October 20 she admitted: "I voted with you on that, if you recall, and got into big trouble". Big trouble for expressing her own opinion in a committee meeting of this House. The member admitted that

she was censured for voting contrary to party wisdom. That is not open government; it is authoritarian top-down government.

I know the Liberal member for Vancouver Quadra will agree with me when I say that the monarch in Parliament is sovereign and MPs share in that sovereignty. Members of Parliament should not merely be puppets to their party brass. It is bad policy, it is bad for Parliament, and it is bad for Canada.

Canadians elect MPs to represent their interests in Parliament. It is a shame that the government would not allow its members to exercise that responsibility. The support was there to create a redistribution bill that would meet the needs and wants of the majority of Canadians, but the government brass whipped its members into line to enforce its own agenda.

The Parliament of Canada should not be run in an authoritarian top-down decision making process. Every vote and every committee should not be considered a matter of confidence. Every member should not be forced by the inner circle to toe the line. That kind of practice reduces the House of Commons to nothing more than a grand rubber stamp for what the cabinet has already decided behind closed doors.

I doubt the government had an open caucus debate on these issues before it determined to add seats to the House of Commons and allow the vast population variance differences that are included in Bill C-69. I doubt very much there was a very open debate in the Liberal caucus about this issue. I suspect the decision was made and members of the Liberal caucus were told that they would support Bill C-69. They were probably given four or five talking points to back them up as they were sent out to sell the government agenda.

There was a rare opportunity here to make a positive change to our redistribution system. The government did not allow its members to make those changes in the area of a capped or reduced House to protect the equality of Canadian votes with a tighter variance.

I want to briefly reflect on some of the observations made by the hon. member for Bellechasse. He took it upon himself to give Reformers a lesson in Canadian history. I want to assure the hon. member that Reformers are very aware of the history of our country. We are very proud of our past. We are very proud of all of those from the past who contributed to this country to make it the great country it is.

I would like to remind the hon. member for Bellechasse and others who might share his concern about our understanding of Canadian history there are reasons that people came to this country. They came particularly to my part of the country, the west, and I believe they came to the province of Quebec, Ontario and Atlantic Canada because they wanted to get away from some things in their country of origin. They wanted to escape repressive regimes. They wanted to escape governments that imposed undemocratic principles upon them.

I am a bit concerned about the Bloc members' position on Bill C-69. They want to impose a principle that in my opinion and the opinion of my Reform colleagues is undemocratic. That is, we would put on the floor of the House of Commons 25 per cent of the seats for one province in this country, regardless of changes in population.

That is why a lot of people left their country, to escape those types of oppressive laws and come to a place where the democratic principles of representation by population were adhered to. I believe that is the principle the people of Quebec adhere to as well. I also believe that is one of the reasons many people in the province of Quebec voted against the Charlottetown accord.

Canadians, both within and outside of Quebec, find it abhorrent that we would call for special status for anyone in this country. It is not a principle that was accepted in the Charlottetown accord. It was repugnant back then and it is repugnant to Canadians today.

We have to ask: Why would they want special status? Why would they want to be guaranteed 25 per cent of the seats of the House of Commons whether their population justified it or not?

I think of two or three arguments that might be put forward. One argument might be that somehow their representatives are not as good as the representatives from other parts of the country and they need that floor and need that protection. I do not accept that argument. Quebecers can send qualified and able members to this House who can represent them adequately, just like we can in the rest of the country. I challenge that argument.

Another argument might be that they are superior to other Canadians and deserve to have 25 per cent of the seats in this House. I reject that argument as well. It is a false argument. We need to look upon each other as equals in this country, equal citizens with equal responsibilities, equal privileges and a law that affects us all in the same manner.

There is one other argument that might be put forth. They might say that they are one of two founding races and somehow that bestows some special privilege upon us. All of us know that the native people were here before those of English or French origin.

This past weekend I was at a breakfast where a Metis leader spoke to us. He brought the point home to us again that in most of this country Canadians do not view Canada as being the home of two founding nations. In particular, if they are one of the first people or of Metis origin, they very much doubt that concept.

I want to close by saying I appreciate the opportunity to make my final remarks on Bill C-69. For all of the reasons I have put forward in my speech at third reading, I urge the House not to pass Bill C-69. We are not getting the job done. If we are not prepared to face the issue square on and if we keep wanting to put off the tough decisions into the future, those decisions will become even tougher to make.

If we let this House expand to 320 members, some 20 more people will have a vested interest in maintaining their seats in this House of Commons and not seeing the size of this House reduced. It is going to have a negative snowball effect which is not good for the country. Unfortunately there are too many politicians in this place who have a vested interest and are not able to put the well-being of the country ahead of their own self-interests.

I urge all members of this House to do the right thing, the thing even Liberals argued for in committee, to cap the size of the House, to respect representation by population, and to vote against Bill C-69.

Firearms Act March 28th, 1995

Madam Speaker, it is my privilege to speak to Bill C-68 and also to the amendment proposed by the hon. member for Yorkton-Melville.

I am pleased to join my Reform colleagues in calling for Bill C-68 to be split into two bills, one dealing with crime and the other with gun control. These two issues are both important but are not connected.

Crime control deals with the issue of public safety while gun control deals with the issues of red tape, bureaucratic burden, additional taxation and, from some extremists, Liberal social engineering.

There is no evidence anywhere to suggest criminal activity and legal gun ownership are connected. Many studies have been done that clearly demonstrate that no such link exists.

No doubt there is a real crime problem in Canada. The politicians know it. Canadian citizens know it. Everyone knows it. Naturally the government wants to be seen as doing something about it. We on the Reform benches would rather the government take real steps to deter crime than opt for the quick fix, look good attack on legal gun owners. It may create a lot of activity that gives the impression of real action, but it will have no real impact on the rates of crime and violent crime in Canada.

One study on the relationship between guns and crime was recently done by Professor Gary Mauser of Simon Fraser University. Professor Mauser's report entitled "Gun Control is not Crime Control" has been published by the Fraser Institute and contains some very interesting facts.

Professor Mauser looked at homicide rates in countries around the world and compared them with gun control laws to see if there was a correlation between the two. There was none. The professor pointed out that no government anywhere in the world could claim to have reduced crime through gun control. Firearms have been banned altogether in Jamaica, Hong Kong, New York City and Washington D.C. without leading to a decrease in homicide rates. Those places have some of the highest crime rates in the world.

To highlight some of his findings I think all members would be interested to know some of the comparisons found in the study. As Canada is a wealthy industrialized democracy, I will limit my comparison to other nations that fit roughly into the same category, namely the United States, France, Switzerland and Japan.

Both France and the U.S.A. have higher homicide rates than Canada. In the United States gun control is more relaxed than here, but in France it is somewhat more controlled. Switzerland has very liberal gun laws. Private gun ownership is encouraged. Not only is the homicide rate in Switzerland lower than in Canada, but it is also lower than in Japan where gun ownership is prohibited entirely. The murder rate is higher in a country that prohibits guns than in one that promotes their responsible use.

An even more telling comparison is the case in Great Britain. Faced with a growing crime rate in the 1980s the British government introduced extremely restrictive gun controls in 1988. In the five years that followed, the crime rate in Britain rose at precisely the same rate as before gun control laws were imposed.

There is a very important message for the government. I hope it is listening. Gun control will have no effect on the crime rate. According to Professor Mauser:

The federal government's current proposals for stricter gun controls would, if introduced, not only fail to reduce crime but would vastly increase the size of the federal bureaucracy.

He went on to say that while legitimate gun owners pose no threat to society, "the violent offender poses a significant threat to public safety and greater efforts must be focused here. It is a truism that laws only apply to the law abiding".

How true it is that more gun control laws will only punish those responsible Canadians who are already following the current laws. The tragedy is that an otherwise good crime bill is being ruined by the inclusion of gun control measures that will not reduce violent crime, suicides or firearm accidents. If they did I would be the first to support them. All these measures will do is punish responsible gun owners and have a serious impact on the industry they support.

I want to talk about the economic impact of Bill C-68. The economic value of all hunting, target shooting and gun collecting in Canada is estimated to be $1.2 billion per year and growing. In my province of Saskatchewan the provincial government is currently engaged in a study of how much economic activity will disappear from the province if the legislation goes through without amendment. The province raises over $8 million annually from the sale of hunting and fishing licences. Some of the revenue will be lost or at least greatly reduced if owning and operating a firearm becomes too expensive or too bureaucratic to be worth it.

American hunting groups are already saying that many hunters will not come to Canada if the gun control is in place. The loss of tourism dollars will be devastating to many parts of Saskatchewan including the area of Kindersley in my constituency.

The hon. member for Kingston and the Islands does not particularly care about the economy of Saskatchewan but I am very concerned because it is the economy in my province that puts bread on the table, provides a future for young people and gives them some reason for optimism. I am really disappointed the government is trying to impose legislation on my province that will harm the economy.

The number of businesses attached to the hunting and tourism industry is tremendous. Has the government considered how many hunting lodges and outfitters will be forced to close? What about all the stores that sell hunting clothing and equipment and the sale of offload vehicles and RVs? We are talking big business. It is not a trivial matter.

Members across the way seem to think it is a trivial matter. They mock the legal business practices of the people of Saskatchewan who are benefiting from the tourism and hunting industry as it now exists. They do not seem to care that it will be squelched with the introduction and passage of Bill C-68.

It is not only the small business men and women who will suffer from the collapse of the hunting and fishing industry. Many local charities run food concessions at gun shows. It is not uncommon for a church group to raise $3,000 or $4,000 for charitable works from a single weekend show.

When farmers retire and auction off their equipment many put a rifle or two in the auction because it brings more people out to the sale. Many in my constituency have expressed the concern that losing this activity will drive down the money they raise for their retirement.

Many outfitters to whom I have spoken from all across Saskatchewan say that business in their stores and at gun shows has dropped by 40 per cent in anticipation of the bill passing. There is a 40 per cent loss in business because they understand the government is fixated with passing Bill C-68. They are expecting it to get much worse once the full impact of the bill is felt.

The Government of Saskatchewan estimates that for each white tail deer licence it issues to non-Canadian residents, $3,000 in related spending is added to the provincial economy. In 1993-94, 2,850 deer licences were issued to non-Canadians. If the American hunters boycott Canada, $8.5 million in direct spending alone will be lost from our economy.

As long as the herd is properly managed, this is a renewable resource that could continue to provide enjoyment for Canadians and our guests as well as contribute to our economy. White tail deer hunting is very important in my riding at the moment as the new world record buck was recently shot by a constituent of mine from Biggar.

Myles Hanson broke an 80-year old record previously held by an American from Nebraska. Because of this new world record, potential for increased tourism revenue exists for the local hunting industry, potential that is put in risk by this type of legislation.

It is unfortunate that we cannot have more time to debate the bill. I will close by saying that Bill C-68 should be split into two bills, one dealing with the crime control that all Canadians want and the other dealing with the gun control wanted by the Liberals and other elites.

It has been demonstrated time and time again that gun control and crime control are separate issues. We should treat them separately in the House. The economic impact of the bill will devastate the tourism industry in Saskatchewan. I call on all members, particularly those from Saskatchewan, to support splitting the bill. It would be a shame to lose a good crime bill because of some ill thought gun control idea.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act, 1995 March 27th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, it is with some interest and almost disbelief that I hear some of the arguments, particularly put forward by the Bloc today, suggesting Quebec should be entitled to 25 per cent of the seats of the House of Commons in perpetuity regardless of the role that history will play in the future of our country and a number of other reasons.

Before I respond to that I will quickly respond to the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands who suggested that if Saskatchewan were to lose a few seats in the House along with other provinces somehow it would reflect badly upon those of us who suggest Canadians want less government rather than more government.

I say to the hon. member that in the province of Saskatchewan, while there are many things the provincial government has done which I disagree with, one of the things it has done that I do agree with is that it has reduced the number of provincial seats from 66 to 58. If the current provincial government in Saskatchewan gets re-elected, one of the reasons it may win re-election is the fact that it has reduced the number of seats in the province. This is contrary to the wisdom of Liberal members in this House who seem to think we need to expand the number of seats in this place to please Canadians and to serve them better.

With respect to the amendment proposed by the Bloc, the Liberals agreed with the Reform Party on most of the proposals which were put forward, including this one. On the others, the Liberals backed away from these principles. The Bloc pursued a very interesting strategy in that it supported the government even though it disagreed with the government on this issue all the way through the progress and development of this bill.

It seemed rather odd that the Bloc would stand with the government. Liberal and Reform members did not agree at any point that Quebec should be guaranteed 25 per cent of the seats in the House. I am not too sure why, but all of a sudden the Bloc decided that this had become a major issue and it would have to reverse its position on the bill.

Let us take a look at what would happen if we followed the Bloc proposal. The Bloc want to guarantee that Quebec will have 25 per cent of the seats in the House of Commons regardless of population. It claims this is Quebec's historical proportion of seats. The Bloc may be proposing this because it knows it will lose the referendum and it wants to remain in the House.

In any case, it violates the principle of representation by population. Seats are added to provinces to account for population growth and proportional shifts. If all the provinces insisted on retaining their proportion of seats, a provincial redistribution would simply not occur. That would create even greater discrepancies in the population of provincial constituencies as the country continued to grow. I would like to give a couple of examples of this. I hope the Bloc members are paying attention.

In 1925 Saskatchewan had 21 out of 245 seats in this House. If Saskatchewan demanded to have its historical proportion of seats, it would now receive 26 seats out of 301 in the next redistribution. That is almost double the current total of 14 seats.

Who would give up those seats? Certainly, Quebec could not because that would not guarantee its 25 per cent. I guess those seats would have to come from the province of Ontario. Or perhaps the province of British Columbia would give up a few. I am sure all of us would have to give a bit to make Saskatchewan and Quebec happy if they were guaranteed their historical percentage of seats. Saskatchewan would have to have 26 seats and Quebec would have to have 25 per cent of the total. It would be a big problem.

Let us look at an even more interesting scenario. The province of Nova Scotia at one time had 21 out of 213 seats in this House. That was at about the turn of the century. A few years later, Alberta and British Columbia received their representation and they only had seven members in this House. If we locked things in in that scenario, Nova Scotia would now have 30 seats in this House and Alberta and British Columbia would probably still be under 10 seats, even though their populations far surpass the province of Nova Scotia. What would we do about that?

Seats are allocated on the basis of population shifts relative to the population of the entire country. It has to be that way because Canada is a nation which has always grown at different rates at different stages and times in its history. The government must adapt and pass laws to fit the reality of the day, not the reality of a century ago. We cannot always navel gaze into the future to predict exactly what is going to happen.

Fixing seat allocations at an arbitrary moment in time is folly. No one can know how the country will develop in the next century. We must not create something which future generations cannot live with and cannot change which, in fact, would be reason to continue some of the divisive arguments we have heard in the past between different regions and provinces within the country.

As Quebec currently has one of the slowest growing populations in Canada according to Elections Canada projections, in order for Quebec to retain 25 per cent of the seats in the House of Commons other provinces would have to surrender them. Otherwise more seats would constantly have to be added to the House of Commons and given to the province of Quebec. The House would become enormous in no time if we followed that practice.

The current formula predicts a House with 318 members by the year 2016 AD, with 75 seats going to Quebec. If Quebec were to have a guaranteed 25 per cent of the seats, other provinces would have to surrender five seats. If the other provinces were not prepared to surrender five seats, then six seats would have to be added to the province of Quebec to bring it up to the 25 per cent mark. As time went on, the number of extra seats required in an already growing House would increase.

This is clearly anti-democratic. It is typical of members of a party and a movement in Canada that cannot even agree on a question regarding the future of this country and whether or not Quebec will remain in Canada. They want to make sure the question will be carried in their favour. They cannot agree on the referendum question and the timing for that question because they want to guarantee the answer will be the one they want. Therefore, they will design the question to fit the scenario. Certainly this is anti-democratic, just as it is anti-democratic

for the Bloc to be declaring that Quebec deserves 25 per cent of the seats of the House of Commons regardless of its population.

It was these types of principles and this type of reasoning which defeated the Charlottetown accord. I am disappointed the member for Kingston and the Islands was defending the Charlottetown accord, an accord that demanded a double majority in the Senate based on language and one that also guaranteed Quebec 25 per cent of the seats in the House of Commons. The member cannot have it both ways. He cannot speak against 25 per cent in this House now and then speak in favour of the Charlottetown accord which included those same measures.

Also, the member for Kingston and the Islands and others in this House have suggested that because the Charlottetown accord called for an elected Senate somehow we compromised in our position. I remind all hon. members in this House that we called for a triple E Senate which was not only elected but also had equal representation from each province to overcome the concerns of the province of Quebec. Should its population decline it would have had that protection in the Senate with an equal number of representatives in the upper House, the same as every other province in Canada.

It makes sense. It is the way this country needs to be governed and it is about time that the members in this House from the other parties realized it.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act, 1995 March 27th, 1995

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The Chair has made a ruling on whether the Bloc amendment was in order and within the scope of the bill. I wonder if he might withdraw that.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act, 1995 March 27th, 1995

It is beyond the scope of the bill.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act, 1995 March 27th, 1995

Dispense.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act, 1995 March 27th, 1995

You were arguing the same thing in committee.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act, 1995 March 27th, 1995

No. How many appeared before the committee?