Roy Cullen

[RCMP and Law Enforcement in Canada, April 12th, 2005]

Madam Chair, the member for Crowfoot mentioned the closure of the forensic laboratory services in Edmonton. This decision is actually in line with the recommendation in the 2000 Auditor General's report that the RCMP rationalize the number of labs to improve the level of service. In fact there will be no long term impact on the processing of cases as a result of this decision.

I have a very simple question for the member for Crowfoot. He serves as vice-chair of the Subcommittee on Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness and because of the unfortunate circumstances of my colleague from Saint John, he is in a position where, if he wants to look at sentencing and parole, the minister would be quite happy to bring it to that subcommittee.

Will he in his capacity as vice-chair, see if we can accommodate this request from the Deputy Prime Minister?

[RCMP and Law Enforcement in Canada, April 12th, 2005]

Perhaps the member should table those documents.

The members opposite talk about local issues. We have to be very careful about characterizing what took place in Mayerthorpe as a whole commentary on our criminal justice system.

As I pointed out earlier, crime is on a downward trend and it has been for the last nine or ten years. I know that is hard to accept. Frankly, it is hard for me to accept because I see crime in my own riding. However, those are the facts. The statistics show that crime and violent crime are on a downward trend and have been consistently for the last 10 years.

I would like to put a question to my colleague from Brome—Missisquoi. I have a lot of respect for his tenacity in the face of the closure of C division of the RCMP. However, it must be understood that the role of the RCMP is not to provide social programs. My colleague seems unable to understand that.

In Quebec, the role of the RCMP consists in providing the services of a federal police force in connection with the fight against organized crime and investigations involving national security. In that province, the RCMP does not provide a community police service or intervene on the front line, because these services are provided by the Sûreté du Québec or by the municipal police forces concerned.

I would ask the member to offer and consider that, while he may not see visibly the RCMP in his community, to be the front line police officers in the province of Quebec is not the intended role.

[RCMP and Law Enforcement in Canada, April 12th, 2005]

Madam Chair, I want to direct a question to my colleague, but I feel obliged to respond. Hindsight is twenty-twenty. Everyone now knows that this chap would reoffend. Where were the public officials in that area? Were they beating down the door saying that we should do something with the criminal justice system then?

[RCMP and Law Enforcement in Canada, April 12th, 2005]

It's coming, it's coming.

[RCMP and Law Enforcement in Canada, April 12th, 2005]

Madam Chair, I know that very recently my colleague was asked to chair a subcommittee of the justice committee looking at the whole issue of prostitution and what Canada could or should not be doing with respect to its public policies and laws in that area.

I believe the subcommittee had a work plan which involved going to jurisdictions that have acted in different ways to deal with this very difficult problem of women and men at risk in the current circumstances. I know the committee wants to study that, but I guess its travel budget was not approved. I am wondering if the member could comment on the work and work plan of the committee given these new circumstances.

Also, when I attended some meetings of the parliamentary assembly of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, a rapporteur made the comment that in those countries that have relaxed the laws against prostitution there seemed to be some linkage with the increased flow of human smuggling, the sex trade type of smuggling. I hope the member looks at that particular question in committee, but I wonder if he could talk generally about the work program and plan of his subcommittee and why this is such an important issue for Canada.

[RCMP and Law Enforcement in Canada, April 12th, 2005]

It was agreed with the provinces and territories to implement the sex offender registry. If we are going to get caught up in the emotion, let us also sift through and deal with the facts.

If members want to deal with sentencing and parole then they should tell their colleagues on the justice committee and the subcommittee to treat this as a priority. The Deputy Prime Minister says she wants to do it.

[RCMP and Law Enforcement in Canada, April 12th, 2005]

Yes. Maybe all that evidence could be tabled in the House. Perhaps that will form part of the RCMP inquiry.

The other aspect is that we have to have some grounds in this country to do that. We have a system of fairness and natural justice. We cannot lock a person up forever and throw away the key because he or she has committed some crimes, no matter how bad those crimes are. As I have said before, the Deputy Prime Minister has said that she is prepared to look at sentencing and parole if we could find the time at the committee to do that.

I would like to correct some “facts” that have come out recently that are not facts. It has been suggested that the government is not supporting the police. As the RCMP commissioner himself has highlighted, resources to the RCMP have gone from $2 billion a year to $3 billion in about five or six years.

On the gun registry, the members opposite know full well it has not cost close to $2 billion. Has it cost too much? Yes, but it is not even close to $2 billion and they know that. In fact, police officers are making about 2,000 inquiries a day on the gun registry and it is having an impact on homicides and suicides in this country. It is having a significant impact. In fact, the worst problem with guns is the long guns in terms of homicides and suicides. The members opposite know that as well.

The member has talked about gangs. This government introduced the anti-gang legislation and in fact it has resulted in the lock-up, prosecution and conviction of a whole range of criminals in the province of Quebec and across the country. In Toronto, the anti-gang legislation was used to arrest a whole number of gangs. The anti-gang legislation is working.

The government does have a sex offender registry and the member knows that full well. It was implemented with the cooperation of the provinces and territories in December.

[RCMP and Law Enforcement in Canada, April 12th, 2005]

Madam Chair, of course we all mourn the loss of four RCMP officers. I went to the memorial service myself, but for the members from Fort McMurray, Athabasca, Yellowhead and Red Deer this has a special meaning. They were and are very close to it.

I think we need to be cautious about trying to represent what occurred in Mayerthorpe as being symbolic or representative of a system gone wrong or bad, because that is simply not the case. Of course, all the facts will come out when the RCMP and others do their review. This chap, Mr. Roszko, seems to me to have been a deranged, delusional individual. We cannot guard against that, no matter what; we can take all the precautions we want. Was there a big public outcry in Mayerthorpe over the years to put that chap away for good?

[RCMP and Law Enforcement in Canada, April 12th, 2005]

Madam Chair, I do not want to get involved in sweeping statements. There are certain laws that would have to be looked at in their totality. As the member for Yellowhead probably knows, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness has said that she is prepared to look at parole and sentencing. However, we have a subcommittee of justice set up to look at that precise question, but it is not prepared to deal with it.

In fairness, the subcommittee has a big workload. In fact one of the major preoccupations right now is the anti-terrorism legislation. Fair enough, but the minister has said that she is prepared to look at parole and sentencing provisions in Canada. Can we get that dealt with by a committee of this House? I do not know, not so far. Maybe the member for Yellowhead could talk to his colleagues on the subcommittee on public safety and emergency preparedness and see if it is prepared to put in a few extra hours from time to time to deal with that very question.

I know I have some frustrations. For example, we know that in the books of the Criminal Code, for primary offences, let us say of murder and rape, judges are obliged to submit the DNA to the DNA data bank, but only about 50% of that data comes in. The government has orchestrated a major effort through the provincial attorneys general and through educating judges to ensure that the DNA comes through to the DNA data bank. These are primary offences and this is a part of the Criminal Code right now. Therefore, I hope the judges are listening and that they take their responsibilities under the Criminal Code to ensure that the DNA for primary offences get to the DNA data bank.

We have a broad range of issues, strategies and tactics here. Rather than generalize, I hope we can deal with the specifics. As I said, the Deputy Prime Minister has said she is prepared to look at sentencing and parole through a parliamentary committee. We know that if it is done through some other panel or other process, it will not get the full attention and support of the party opposite. I know the minister would like to do it through a parliamentary committee, so maybe he will talk to his colleagues and ensure that we can do that at the subcommittee.

[RCMP and Law Enforcement in Canada, April 12th, 2005]

Madam Chair, the government works very closely with the Canadian Professional Police Association and Mr. Cannavino. In fact, I was at an event last week where I was asked to present a number of awards to police officers from across Canada for various acts of bravery. The government has a high regard for that organization and listens intently to its advice on various policy matters.

I think my colleague from Malpeque made the statement, with which I have some sympathy, that at the present time we have laws on our books that the judiciary does not seem to apply the full force of those laws. Grow ops seem to be a good example.

When I was out in British Columbia, I met with the RCMP. I talked with friends and other contacts in British Columbia. They were quite frustrated with the fact that a lot of these grow op people were recurring offenders. They were not getting the sanctions doled out to them which were already available on the books. This is why the government is looking at the marijuana bill. Part of that bill is to toughen up the sentences on the operation of grow ops, and that is what we need to do.

I too concur with the member from Malpeque. I hope and am confident that the judiciary will use the tools that Parliament has given them and act on laws that are already on the books. Failing that, in individual cases and for example with grow ops, the government might have to look at imposing tougher sentences.

I am not so convinced of the need for minimum sentencing. I think we have to have some discretion in the judiciary to hand out sentences. Every case is a question of the law and a question of the facts and every case is unique. However, I too look for the judiciary to apply the law as it was intended by this Parliament.

I am not quite sure what Mr. Cannavino had in mind when he said that he wanted the House of Commons to prevail over the courts. I am not exactly sure he put it that way. Perhaps what he is getting at is the need for Parliament to revisit some of the laws that have been passed by Parliament. Each situation would have to be looked at individually.

In the case of grow ops, I am quite frustrated, as I am sure we all are. That is why our government has committed additional resources to the RCMP to establish a grow op investigative and enforcement team. We need to do more and we need to ensure that the judiciary applies the laws that are already on the books. If the judiciary is not going to do that, then perhaps we have to revisit some of those laws.