Ken Epp

[Supply, February 6th, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for sharing his time with me.

When I listened to different members express their points of view, I thought about of analogy I could use to help illustrate the issue here today. The real question is whether we will hold the Liberal government, under the Prime Minister, fully accountable its decision with respect to the involvement of Canadian troops in any possible attack on Iraq. We have to think about why we are here.

Here is the analogy I thought of and it happens to be a true story. It happened only a couple of years ago and for obvious reasons, I will not give the House any names.

A young lady was found to be very attractive to a certain young man. He started hanging around her house. This young lady happened to have three brothers, all of whom were substantial in size, football size quality, and had a way of imposing their presence. They were a little concerned about this young man who was trying to court their sister so they came up with a plan.

These young fellows happened to have a very nice little sports car. The next time this young courting visitor came around, they took him for a ride in the car. The three brothers and the young man, who was trying to edge his way into the family, all took a drive in the car. Lo and behold it did not take long for them to end up out in the country.

These three young men did not intend to do any harm to this young man, but they wanted to give him a very strong message. They stopped the car and got out. They were looking under the hood at the motor and so on. They arranged it so that suddenly this young man, who was quite thin, found himself surrounded by the three rather burly sized guys. They simply looked at him and told him that they knew he was after their sister and if he hurt her in any way, he would regret it. They wanted to make the point very clear that they were there to protect their sister. This is a true story, but I am just not telling members who it is. However I there is a happy ending to this story.

This young man realized full well that he had some really strict rules to obey during the courtship time, and it worked out fine. Today they are a happily married couple and the boys like their new brother-in-law. There was a time when he was considered a threat and without doing anything bad the boys made sure he received a clear message.

We have a similar situation with Saddam Hussein. From all we can tell, he is a guy intent on doing some pretty serious evil in various parts of the world, particularly the free world. That is in his plans for the future. We know he has already done some pretty dastardly things in the past, and I will get to those.

The point right now is that we need to have a bunch of allies surround him, stand close to him, look him right in the eye and tell him that if he touches us there will be big consequences. The outcome hopefully will be that he will back off, agree with the United Nations inspectors and give them total freedom to work in his country, to take away his offensive arms and his ability to produce them, thereby ensuring safety for his people as well as for people around the world. That is the objective I wish we could achieve, and it has been mentioned here before.

I do not think members in the House would say that they ought to support George Bush and that they would go in and attack someone. Neither George Bush, nor the Americans, nor Canadians nor the British are schoolyard bullies. They are the big brothers saying not to touch their sister. That is what we are saying to Saddam Hussein. He has done enough to his people. He has threatened the rest of the world. We are saying that we will not let him get away with it and that we will take away his ability to do it.

I need to emphasize that this person is a real threat. Just think of a few things he has done. He unilaterally attacked Kuwait. At that stage everybody said that the Americans were only going there to defend it because of the oil source. Frankly, I do not believe that. I think the Americans and Canadians together have that capacity to match maybe 85% or 90% of the oil output that comes from that part of the world. We have it almost in Alberta, if we were to develop the tar sands in our part of the country. I do not believe that it is just about oil. I think it is about freedom of people not to be attacked by neighbours who are belligerent. I think that is why the Americans went in there to protect Kuwait and free it.

What did Saddam Hussein do when he was driven out of there? I suppose the images burned into all our minds are of the oil wells burning. They would still be burning if it were not for American know-how and the personnel and equipment which went in to shut the wells down. That is the kind of an irresponsible person with whom we are dealing.

We think of the Kurds that he gassed, as an experiment almost. That puts Hitler and Saddam Hussein into the same category. Hitler also did experiments on humans. We look back in history now and say that stopping Hitler when we did was almost too late, it should have been done earlier.

Of the evidence I have that tells me Saddam is a nasty man and not to be trusted, the one that gets me the closest is the way in which he dealt with his own family. First, we need to recognize that there were I think four sons-in-law, husbands of Saddam's daughters, who said that Saddam was bad and they would have to inform the rest of the world about him. They took a huge risk doing that. No matter where they were in the world, they knew they would be a target. They left the country and began to talk publicly about the danger he was to the rest of the world.

Saddam Hussein sent a message to them and asked them to come home because he missed them. He said that he missed his daughters and he loved and missed his grandchildren. He said that he had forgiven them. Those were the words and commitments he made to his daughters. What happened when they returned home? He killed them. Some reports said that he personally shot his sons-in-law, the fathers of his grandchildren. To have any meaningful conversation and say that what we ought to do is to negotiate with this guy to me defies understanding. He is a guy who has to be surrounded.

What is the motion about today? Part of my job is to help members on both sides of the House vote in favour of the motion. Every one of us here can vote in favour of the motion, regardless on what side we are. We acknowledge that it would be an executive decision to declare war and to commit our troops to that war.

We acknowledge that the government will make that decision, with or without a vote. We wish that there would be a debate and vote beforehand. Given that there will not be, we are saying that the government should be held accountable. The day after, or as soon as possible if the House is not sitting, we want the members of Parliament to have the freedom to stand up and vote on a motion which would say that the House concurred in the decision by the government regarding Canada's involvement in military action to disarm Saddam Hussein.

Regardless of which side the members are on, they have the opportunity, with this motion, to vote on it. Our motion today is simply a way of assuring that such a vote will take place the day after, or as soon thereafter as possible if the House is not sitting, according to the amendment. In that way we would be able to tell the government whether it has the support and the concurrence of the House in the decision it has made.

[Assisted Human Reproduction Act, February 5th, 2003]

Madam Speaker, I was talking about all the ramifications of these different procedures that we are going through in order to enhance the reproductive ability of people who are supposed to be looking for help because they cannot have children on their own. There are many problems involved with this.

In conclusion I would like to say that it is very important that we do the right thing, that we pay very careful attention to the motions in this particular group and that we support them because they are worthy of that.

[Criminal Code, February 3rd, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to be able to stand in defence of children today. I share the concerns and the outrage of many of my colleagues at the total inaction on the part of the government to protect children.

The member who just spoke for the Liberal Party has urged us to support Bill C-20 because, in his words, it is a step in the right direction. Well, I am going to urge all members of Parliament, including the Liberals, to vote against Bill C-20 because it is such a tepid step. It is almost nothing. It is as if we were on our way to Edmonton from Ottawa. We are facing west but we are going to take only a small step forward. We might as well vote against it because it really has not done anything.

In fact, if we were to analyze Bill C-20, we would find that all it does is change the words for some of the defences that are used when charged with this crime and it does not strengthen anything. In fact, in some areas I believe it substantially weakens it.

I have on occasion been told that real men do not cry, that real men do not eat quiche, and things like that, but I have to confess, and I do this rather unashamedly, that I have in the last couple of years actually cried on occasion for our country because of the lack of leadership in a whole bunch of areas but mostly because of the lack of moral leadership. We have no moral leadership all the way from the Prime Minister down to the ministers and the backbenchers on the government side.

We have Shawinigan shenanigans but it does not matter. The Prime Minister just says that he is doing his job. Yet we have accusations and charges. A whole bunch of people are under investigation into the misuse of money in Quebec on advertising. That is okay. That will blow over. The Liberals will get their party people to do the spin doctoring on that and that wave of negative reporting will disappear and they will move on.

That is unconscionable. There is no moral leadership, no moral anchor. We no longer have a leadership that guides in what is right and what is wrong. It has degenerated to the point where when it comes to things as obscene as the sexual abuse of children, here we are, a bunch of men and women, adults, most of us moms and dads, many of us grandparents, and we are not ready to stand up and say that we are not going there, period.

The other night I woke up. I was not at home. I was visiting my suffering mother in Saskatchewan who was recovering from the shock of having buried her husband of 67 and a half years and healing a broken hip. I guess I was probably a little emotional, having spent some time with her cleaning up some of the things in the house. This became part of my newspaper column in the local paper in Sherwood Park. It happens to me occasionally that I wake in the night and cannot go back to sleep. That happened at 2:23 a.m. I got to thinking about a whole bunch of things, including the imminent resumption of Parliament, I was wondering what would be on the Liberal agenda at the time and I contemplated what would be my highest priority.

Thinking about my family and my grandchildren, I had an inspiration which I wrote down. It was about 2:30 when this happened. The wheels were turning. I got out of bed, warmed up my computer and wrote my newspaper column at 2:30 in the morning. This was my inspiration. This was how I worded it, “Notwithstanding any Liberal interpretation of the charter, any person who knowingly creates, possesses, stores, distributes, sells or gives away any depiction, description or image of any child in a sexual abusive act or state in any form whatsoever, including but not limited to photographs, writings, computer images or files, is guilty of a federal offence and subject to imprisonment of a minimum of 25 years”. That was what I came up with at 2:30 in the morning a couple of weeks ago.

That is how passionately I feel about this. My young grandchildren should be protected. Everyone's children and grandchildren look to this place for leadership. Is it here? No. The government wants us to support this tepid, half a step bill that it labels child protection. It is not willing to say that this is simply not acceptable and that if people do it they will not be permitted to get away with it. I do not know why we are so timid in this area.

The other thing that occurs to me is that the Liberals are playing politics with this. I will explain how this is happening. Watch what happens in the next election. I do not know about my colleagues, but I will be voting against the bill because it does not touch the problems. It is not because we are not facing in the right direction. It is because we are not going anywhere.

I can already see the Liberal political tactic. In the next election the Liberals will ask the community of Elk Island not to vote for the incumbent because he voted against Bill C-20, the child protection legislation. The Liberals have done that before and they will do it again. They are planning an election campaign on the backs, if I can say it that way, of our innocent children. That is despicable. I cannot believe we have degenerated to such a low level.

I do not see any reason in the world why we cannot invoke the entire Charter of Rights and Freedoms. There was a lot of wisdom in the people of that day. In one step they put in the notwithstanding clause in order to protect against a court that would misinterpret the intentions of Parliament. Surely the writers of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms did not say that they wanted to have it in order to permit people to become predators of our children. We are irresponsible in this Parliament if we do not invoke that clause in the charter which was put there specifically so we could do that.

I would have much more to say except for limitations of time, but I would like to move an amendment as this point. I move:

That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word “That” and substituting the following therefor:

Bill C-20, an act to amend the Criminal Code (protection of children and other vulnerable persons) and the Canada Evidence Act, be not now read a second time but that the order be discharged, the bill withdrawn and the subject matter thereof referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

I will say in closing that the purpose is to strengthen the bill so that we can stand up in front of future generations and say that we actually did something tangible for the children of our country.

[Taxation, February 3rd, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, the truth is that honest, law-abiding citizens are picking up the tab for others who are breaking the law: $44 billion per year, the same amount as we spend on interest on our debt.

I ask again, what specific measures will the minister and the government take to stop this fraud?

[Taxation, February 3rd, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, in 1970 about 3.5% of our economy was underground. Now it is 16%. This costs Canadians about $44 billion per year in lost revenue. High income taxes, punitive payroll taxes, EI premiums, CPP premiums, GST, excessive regulations and the high costs of filing all of those reports has driven too many businesses underground.

What steps are being taken to ensure that honest taxpayers will not be stuck with the tab for this?

[Canada Pension Plan, January 31st, 2003]

We never said that.

[Child Pornography, January 31st, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, it is unbelievable that the government cannot find some way to protect our children from sexual predators. Instead of changing the law, the Liberal government is content to just make excuses.

Why can the Liberals not understand that as long as the age of consent is down at 14 years, there will be ongoing abuse of our children? Why can they not understand that it must be the older person who must be held accountable? Why can they not understand that the purpose of the law must be to protect our children and to restrain those who would exploit these youngsters for their own perverted pleasure or for money? Why can they not understand that adult abuse of children happens because they are allowing it?

It just does not make sense. Our children are precious and must be protected.

If the Liberals will not protect them, it is time Canadians turfed the Liberals and put in a party that puts children's protection ahead of the presumed rights of perverts. It is time to change--

[Assisted Human Reproduction Act, January 30th, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, we are here once again speaking about the genesis of life or the beginning of life.

Some time ago I read an interesting article in which the issue of when life begins was debated. There are some who believe it begins right at the moment of conception. There are others who say that it is somewhere around the end of the first trimester or during the second trimester. Then Canada has an absurd law that states that human life does not begin until the totally formed child is exuded from the mother's body. That is a very inadequate definition, especially in view of the fact that even those who argue the viability argument, which I also reject, know that a pre-born child is viable any time between eight or nine months after fertilization. We are in a real bog when we ask when does life begins.

A very interesting statement about in vitro fertilization was made in this article by a researcher from France, whose name I unfortunately do not remember. He was speaking about in vitro fertilization and inadvertently used a phrase which settled the issue. He said that the moment that the sperm was injected into the egg, in the little Petri dish, lo and behold, cell division began and life began. He was not a pro-lifer or anything like that. He was involved in research and gave very little regard to the moral value of human life. He came to the conclusion that there was life even in that cell.

Bill C-13 deals with the whole issue of human reproduction and assisted reproduction for couples who have difficulty having children. We are dealing with the issue of cells springing to life. Once there is life, there is a special and sacred quality to that chemical mix. Suddenly there is an actual life there. It is an intriguing idea.

Inanimate objects do not have life. We stand in here surrounded by tables, desks and other inanimate things. Beautiful as the stone work is, it is inanimate. It is not living. If it someday crumbles and falls, as we believe it will sometime in the next two or three thousand years, it will be sad. If it is a nice building we will regret it, but it is not the end of the world.

I remember not long ago one of my friends was in a car accident. I did not ask how the car fared. Instead asked him if he was okay or if he was injured. I asked if anyone else had been seriously hurt or if anyone had been killed. We immediately think of the humans involved in these kinds of things. Vehicles, whether they are nice or not, are replaceable or repairable.

We recognize the presence of life in other entities. For example, for many years we have been talking about endangered species. Even when I was a youngster, I remember the talk about the expiration of the whooping crane. They were an endangered species back then and I believe they still are today, although measures have been taken to preserve them.

Many strong penalties were brought in to preserve their lives even in the embryonic stage. The penalty was very high for anyone caught interfering with a nest of whooping crane eggs. The penalty was in the thousands of dollars and even subject to jail time. It was recognized there that unhatched egg represented, even though not fully developed, another whooping crane.

When we deal with the human genome, as it is called, it is another human being. I believe that very strongly and that is the basic definition we must come to grips with and grapple with when we make decisions that are so important to us.

Using these entities then for research is part of the subject of the bill. The bill deals not only with assisted reproduction but also with research and helping to find cures for diseases and other things. An embryo is not as clearly defined as a full grown adult or at least a fully developed child at birth. It is less developed than that, along various stages, along that long continuum of cell division and development. We must recognize that it is human and we must treat it with great dignity.

All the motions in Group No. 5 were proposed by the member for Mississauga South and deal with the dignity of human life. As such, I have absolutely no hesitation but to declare that I am ready to support every one of these amendments. They are very worthy.

I presume that I will have still about three minutes left when the debate on this bill resumes.

[Assisted Human Reproduction Act, January 30th, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I believe the mover of all these motions referred to Motion No. 84, but if I am not mistaken, you did not call Motion No. 84. I would like to have a verification of that.

[First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act, January 30th, 2003]

Mr. Speaker, I am interested in the bill and in the impact it would have. One of the things it tries to address is the fact that our native citizens are generally unwilling to participate in the Canadian scene when it comes to things like the Income Tax Act or tax collection. They quite regularly boycott attempts during elections to be enumerated and things like that. I understand that even with Statistics Canada they resent the Canadian government going on the reserves to collect data on them.

Some of the measures in the bill, presumably, try to address those issues and to bring those particular agencies a little closer to the people that they are purporting to work with.

I have two questions for the member on that topic: first, does the member have any insight into why this resistance is there; and, second, does he believe that the measures in the bill will address and correct those problems?