Mr. Chair, it is a privilege and a pleasure to rise and talk about this. I will focus my address mostly to the Solicitor General, although I believe the Auditor General will get honourable mention through the debate. I want to bring some things to the attention of the Solicitor General.
I want to focus on credibility of the gun registry system. The Solicitor General has said many times in the House that it is a great system and that the police depend on it. I want to point out to him that maybe the police should not depend on it.
My office has had several calls from people who say that they have tried to utilize the gun registry system and have found a lot of trouble with it. On May 6, I raised it in the House. I asked the Solicitor General about the problems that people were reporting. He said, and I quote from Hansard :
I am not denying for a moment that there are not bad examples out there. There are.
What we are trying to do...personally is talk to some of those individuals... we want to talk directly to those people who have problems and we want to fix those problems.
We are here to help the Solicitor General. We are going to help him make contact with those people. To do this, we have set up a website at www.gunregistry.ca. In the first two weeks it has been open, without even any advertising, we have had 34,000 hits at www.gunregistry.ca. That is 50 per hour on average and we peaked out at 359 an hour at one time. To say there is not a lot of interest in this is an understatement.
There are two ways to comment on www.gunregistry.ca. People can leave a comment that everybody can see, and members can go to the website right now and see those comments. There are dozens and dozens of them. Alternatively, people can send a letter to me, which I personally will turn over to the Solicitor General because he wants to hear from people who have had problems and he wants to fix those problems. He told me that earlier in the House. Therefore, if people have a problem with the gun registry, they should go to www.gunregistry.ca, click on comment, send me the comment and I will put it in the hands of the Solicitor General.
In any case, I want to bring to the attention of the Solicitor General a couple of the comments we already have received so he can get a flavour of the comments. They are from all across the country. We are going to start with one from Nova Scotia. This man started to register his firearms in 1998. He applied for his possession certificate and filled out the first forms. Twelve months later he started receiving a plastic firearms certificates. Over the next six months he received one or two plastic firearms certificates. Then he started receiving cardboard ones, until in the end he had 23 registrations more than he had guns.
This is the firearms system upon which the Solicitor General says the police are depending. If they went to this man's house, they would expect him to have 23 firearms which he does not have, 23 firearms that do not exist. Again, if something happened to this man, the estate would be held responsible to produce these 23 firearms, but they do not exist.
He says, “Me being a frustrated, law-abiding, tax paying, slow to anger Canadian citizen, I called his 1-800 number. After waiting on hold I got to talk to a real person. I take my time and I try to explain what has happened. I want to mail back these 23 certificates to the gun registry, and the staff person who answered the phone, not real polite, tells me this is not going to happen. Then she starts to give me a 20 minute lecture explaining what I have to do.
This is where my nightmare with the gun registry ends today, May 16, 2003. I hope I do not spend my golden years in jail for trying to be a law-abiding citizen, but out of frustration I have given up on the Canadian gun registry. If my nightmare can be corrected, good, if not, thanks anyway”.
I know the Solicitor General is going to take this letter and fix this problem because he promised he would do that right here in the House.
Here is one from a man in Saskatchewan. He says, “While the firearms registry cashed my cheque and sent me a new possession acquisition licence, which I received about a month ago, lo and behold I got another one yesterday. This was after waiting several months to get the first one”. His friend got his for free, but other people had to pay $80 each. He has two of these systems now.
Here is another one from Alberta. He says, “I applied for an FAC. I had my photo taken, wrote out my cheque and dropped the whole package in the mail. The wait began which indicated it was to be six to eight weeks. However I waited and I waited. I waited for eight months and then I called. I waited again. Six weeks more passed and then eight weeks more passed and my cheque had not been cashed.
I called the registry, the 1-800 number, and I waited on hold for over an hour. When the agent answered the phone she was abrupt and rude but did check the system and said that I was not in the system. I called back again a few weeks later and they said I was in the system even though I had not added anything.
Eleven weeks later a letter arrived from CFC. I opened the letter to find my acquisition licence with all my information but someone else's picture”.
This is the system that the Solicitor General is talking about that is so important to the police. This is a man who waited all this time for his licence and when it came it had someone else's picture.
This is people's lives, their rights, their property and ultimately their freedom with which these people are playing. The penalties under Bill C-68 are no laughing matter and the incompetence at the CFC put people at risk of arrest and imprisonment.
I have another one from Ontario. He says, “I submitted my wife's possession and acquisition application in the same envelope I put my own in. My wife got her licence at least one month before mine was even looked at, even though her references were never contacted. We know this because we asked and I, her spouse, was never contacted by the police to see if I had a concern about her having firearms. I didn't get the same treatment. While my references were also never called, my spouse was contacted by the police who wanted to know if she minded me getting firearms licence”.
Therefore it is the same family, same guns, same envelope, same applications and the man is treated differently than the woman. The minster might like to explain that one.
Here is another one. It states, “We registered our guns but when the registration papers came the owners name wasn't even on them”. This is the credible system that the Solicitor General says the police are depending on.
Here is one from Owen Sound, Ontario. It says, “Here is my experience: missing information on the registration card, incorrect information on the registration card, failure to return my phone calls, failure to answer e-mails, two weeks to talk to a human being and stickers that don't stick.
The stickers that do not stick are little stickers that when they are sent says “Here is your firearm identification number sticker, FIN”. These little stickers are to go on firearms. I received four of these stickers for guns that do not exist from another person in Nova Scotia who said: “Here are licences, certificates and stickers for guns that don't exist and the police somewhere think these guns exist and they don't. They are figments of the firearm registry's imagination”.
Here is another one from a man in Nelson, B.C. who registered two shotguns and he got his certificates and he got his stickers but there is no way to identify where the sticker goes and on what gun the sticker goes. The sticker has the date and the registration number but it does not say on what gun it goes. He has two guns, two stickers and he does not know which is which.
He says, “I am frustrated with the incompetence of the gun registry. I have requested assistance from the CFC repeatedly and received one non-helpful answer. I requested help directly from the Attorney General, and the Solicitor General, but neither has replied in any way”. I know that must be a mistake because the Solicitor General said he wanted to hear from people and would help solve their problems. We will give him this right away and then he can address it and I am sure he will.
Here is an interesting one from a man from New Brunswick. He owns a restricted handgun. He is law-abiding citizens and follows all the rules. He sold his house. He has to move from one house to the new house and to do that he has to have a transfer permit to move his handgun, his restricted weapon. Can he get it? He cannot get one.
He says, “I proceeded to call the firearms registry for 30 consecutive days approximately three times a day, at times on hold in excess of 30 minutes and gave up each time”.
That is 30 consecutive days three times a day. He wants to comply. He does not want to be a criminal. He does not want to move his gun illegally, but he has to have a permit, but he cannot get one. What did he do? He illegally transferred the gun to the new address. It did not make sense for him not to sell his house because he could not get hold of the firearm registry, so he illegally transferred his gun. He even told the RCMP he was going to do this and the RCMP said if it caught him it could charge him. In any event he was trying to comply. He moved the gun and then he had to re-register the gun. He re-registered it at the new address.
The firearms registry shows this gun still at the old address, so if the police, whom the Solicitor General says are depending on the system, go to that address, they will expect that handgun to be there when in fact it is at another address altogether. Again, double registration and no credibility for the system.
This is from Peace River, Alberta. It says, “I registered my firearms in October of 2002. I am still waiting for at least six registrations that have been in progress since December 2002. It is now May 2003. How long does it take to register six guns?”
That is a question the Solicitor General should answer. How long does it take to register a gun? What is reasonable, not an abnormality nor an aberration, but what is the normal acceptable level of service that a Canadian should expect from the gun registry? How long should it take to register a gun? Everybody has to provide service in business and in life. We as members of Parliament have to provide a service. The Solicitor General and the gun registry have to provide a service. There should be a level of service that is acceptable and one that is not.
Here is one from Sudbury, Ontario. It say, “I have in the past waited for hours on the phone, talked to as many as 11 individuals to get my problem resolved, only to be told to call back because the individual who looks after it is not available. I have been told that although I feel that I have a problem, I really do not have a problem. One problem I have is the need to apply for replacement I.D. stickers”. These are the little stickers we talked about before. These are for guns that do not exist. They fall off. It goes on to say, “I think the registration provisions are needlessly regressive and complex while not aimed at the correct targets”.
Again, the same story. The one common thread through this is if we have a problem, we cannot get it fixed. This man has waited for hours on the phone, talked to 11 individuals and still has not got the problem fixed. He was told he did not have a problem, even though he knew he registered his gun in error. He made a mistake. He tried to correct that mistake and the registry said that he did not have a problem because it was not a mistake but it was.
This one is from Belleville, Ontario. It says, “It has been over two years since I submitted my registration for my firearms. I have submitted three inquiries to the registry as to the status of my registration because I have not yet received anything in the mail about the registration. Fortunately I kept photocopies.
My first inquiry was in June of 2001. I was told they did not have to be registered till 2003 and not to worry. Late in 2002 I inquired again with no response.
In January 2003 I sent another inquiry. In the last e-mail I informed the Leader of the Opposition and the leader of the Conservative Party that I needed help with this matter. Finally, I received an e-mail to say that if I did not register I could be charged”.
This is a man who says he wants to register his gun and asks where it is in the system. He is told not to worry and that there is no hurry. Then he gets an e-mail saying that he will be charged because he did not register his firearm. He goes on, “I am not a criminal, and this program has been so mismanaged that it is trying to turn law-abiding citizens into criminals. I would still like to have my firearms registered”.
The Solicitor General will get this letter and I am sure he will look after it.
This is another one from Victoria, B.C. It says, “From September to December 2002 I tried to register all my firearms online”.
It is the same old story; it is still not registered. This one is from North Saanich. It says, “I had approximately eight rifles registered with the wrong serial numbers by the firearms centre”.
That is eight rifles registered with the wrong serial numbers. What is the point in having a registry if they are registered with the wrong serial numbers? What good is that to the police if they have the wrong serial numbers? It goes on to say, “As well, last December I was unable to either fax, e-mail or phone into the firearms centre to confirm I had rifles to register. These rifles were left off my initial list in the initial registration by myself and my wife.
I guess the biggest complaint is, whenever something comes up, I feel as if the firearms registry employees have a big stick to wield and the innocent Canadians who are licensed to carry firearms for sporting purposes are being singled out by the feds for treatment”.
Again, there has to be a level of service and I will ask the Solicitor General to tell us what the minimum level of service is for registration of firearms. How long should a person wait on the phone before a human being answers the phone at the firearms registry? What is reasonable? One minute? Two minutes? What is it? I want to know what is the minimum standard of service. I am not talking about the odd occasion, I am asking what should Canadians accept and what should they expect when they call the firearms registry?
We have one person who called 30 days in a row, three times a day and waited as much as 30 minutes. I want the minister to tell us, what is the minimum level of service?
A dealer in Victoria said that the only way he could get a gun licensed and transferred was through the back door. The purchaser of the firearm knew somebody at the registry office and somehow it was done.
Here is a letter from an individual in Ontario who says that when he re-registered his restricted firearm he was sent a sticker to put on one of his guns. He said that all his registered handguns had serial numbers and that the gun he re-registered already had a serial number. The registry office, however, created another serial number and sent him a certificate and a sticker for it. This gun now has two serial numbers, and what the police will do with that I cannot imagine.
The Solicitor General says that they are depending on this but I do not think they should.
I have another letter from a gentleman in Nova Scotia who says that his wife attempted to register via the Internet in December 2002. She received a message back stating that the submission was not accepted. She re-tried but a message came back stating that the application had already been submitted. She did not know whether it was accepted or not so she sent a letter of intent. A message came back telling her to re-submit within 30 days from that date. When she tried to re-submit, the system said that the web page was not available. It goes on and on.
I have another letter from an individual in Mississauga who says that at no point was his wife or any of the references contacted, although one of the big selling points of the new legislation was the creation of a culture of safety. He guesses that the CFC was just too busy to bother calling.
These letters go on and on.
It is the same old story from a man in New Brunswick. He says that beginning in early November 2002 he began to actively register the firearms belonging to himself and his wife.
We will be turning over these letters, which have come from all across the country, to the Solicitor General. We are hoping he will keep the promise he made on May 6 when he said that he wanted to hear from people. We want people to tap into gunregistry.ca. We want them to send us their letters and we will put them in the hands of the Solicitor General. He has said that he wants to talk directly to those people who have had problems and he wants to fix those problems.
Could the Solicitor General tell us what minimum level of service we should expect? How long should a person have to wait when they call the firearms registry? How long should a person have to wait to get a registration back from the registry if the application is completed and done right? What is the minimum time that they can expect to do that?
