Madam Speaker, I am pleased to debate the motion today and I want to start by outlining where I will be going. I will look at the context of how we got here. I want to talk about the government obstruction, the rights of a committee, the importance of this issue to Canadians and, clearly, why we need a public inquiry.
There is no question that this is a very serious issue. As a parliamentarian, I need to have access to information in order to carry out my responsibilities, which include oversight of government.
The issue we are debating today has nothing to do with the actions of our forces on the ground. They are doing an outstanding job and we know that. We know that the men and women are performing in a first class way in the field. Having been there on two occasions, I know that for a fact. I know that our diplomats and our military are discharging their responsibilities. The question is whether the government is discharging its responsibility, not only to Parliament but also to Canadians.
It needs to be emphasized again that as parliamentarians and part of the special committee set up to oversee the work that we are doing in Afghanistan, we need to be able to inform Canadians. We cannot inform Canadians unless we have readily available information.
The question is also about Canada's international obligations, obligations in terms of the Geneva Convention and the issues of human rights. Again, when it comes to that, our soldiers are following the absolute letter.
The issue is clearly what the government knew if and when there were abuses when Canadian detainees were transferred to Afghan authorities, whether the Afghan police or the Afghan national army.
There is need for accountability. Government has to be accountable, and in this country the government is ultimately accountable to Parliament. Parliamentarians, if they have any role, it is the role of oversight. If they are to have meaning, and this is important on both sides of the aisle, they must have the ability to have oversight, to call for documents, to call witnesses and to be able to ask the questions that are sometimes uncomfortable for government but are needed in order to get the answers. Wherever that questioning goes, it is obviously important.
I give the example that we have, at the moment, a number of allegations out there. These allegations are difficult to deal with if we do not have the documents. We have had witnesses before the special committee who have obviously seen the documents, but they have seen them unredacted, without the black marks all over them. I know I am not allowed to use props, so I will not, Madam Speaker, you have probably seen them on television, but there are pages that are simply black. We do not know what their dates are or who was involved, because certain words are blacked out. Therefore, as a member of that committee, as vice-chairman of that committee, I cannot really determine very much if all I see are blacked out documents.
Talking about climate change, it is amazing the number of trees that we have cut down to produce these simple documents that do not tell members anything. Subcommittee members certainly are aware that many of the witnesses who came before the committee had access to those documents unfettered. I think it is very disturbing that witnesses would be able to look at the documents, but somehow members of the committee cannot.
Therefore, the purpose of today's motion is to deal with this issue. Later on I will get into the rights of the committee and, of course, the legal issues we are dealing with.
When we ask if the government is covering up torture, one would conclude that might be a logical assumption if the government is not in fact prepared to provide the evidence that committee members need. One would assume, unless, by chance, the government side of the committee has seen everything and we have not, that it would be of value to all members of the committee to have the unfettered documents. Apparently members on the other side believe that we can do the work without having the documents.
This country has a long tradition for human rights. It has a long tradition in the world on the issue of protecting the individual. Our central foreign policy has traditionally been on the issue human rights and the protection of the individual and the right to protect.
Therefore, it is absolutely critical that when there are allegations going back as far as 2006, we are able to investigate them in a manner consistent with the parliamentary motion of March 2008, which gave the committee that oversight of the very issue we are talking about.
A public inquiry then is what we are eventually going to be talking about, but in terms of the specifics of this committee, the committee has heard witnesses and different views. We have heard from Mr. Colvin, a respected diplomat. We have heard from three respected generals, and from Mr. Mulroney, our current ambassador to China. The issue is that we have heard testimony, but conflicting testimony.
Obviously if these individuals have access to documents that may shed light on where we can find the truth, we cannot do that unless the documents are produced.
The government has, from the very beginning, said there have been no credible cases of abuse. That has been the line in the House from day one, that we do not have any credible evidence. How can the government be absolutely certain?
On Tuesday, the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Natynczyk, who is a great Canadian and a very honourable individual, came before the defence committee and indicated that to the best of his knowledge, the individual in question in the Noonan report was in fact not a Canadian detainee transferred over to the Afghan national police. The general then took the extraordinary step yesterday of convening a press conference to indicate very clearly that new information had come to light and that, in fact, it was a Canadian detainee who was transferred.
The question of course then is what information came to light and why does the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan not have that information? Clearly, the general has information that led him to say, no, what he had said on Tuesday was not correct and that on Wednesday, he had new information.
Everyone seems to have information except the very members of the committee who are charged with the responsibility of dealing with this issue. That is why we are saying that not only is there a cover up but also that we need a full public inquiry. Without a full public inquiry it seems that we are simply a Hollywood backdrop here. We are not able to get the kind of information we need. I cannot believe that members on the other side are not as frustrated as those of us in the opposition.
The government cannot, in my view, and I am sure many of my colleagues would agree, deny any further that there is no credible evidence. I say this because when Colonel Noonan did his report, they took photos of the individual before they turned him over, to be clear that there were no signs of any abuse, and they also took detailed notes. Later we found that there was.
The Canadian soldiers did their job. We are asking the government to do its job by providing the information that we need.
Again, General Natynczyk received information. He has now indicated that it was a Canadian detainee who was turned over. We need to know on what basis the general decided to go public and say this was in fact the case. Without that information it is difficult for us to do very much.
I realize that perhaps the motive or intent of the government is that the committee not be able to do its work successfully. I know the government would like this issue to go away. I know the government would like us to say that Christmas is coming and this will soon be off the front pages and we will not worry about this and that when we reconvene at the end of January, we will move on to something else.
However, this is a fundamental issue for Canadians. This is the issue of our role in the world, our role in terms of human rights. It is not something that we can slough off. It is not something we can say that because we are going to have Christmas break, we will not worry about it and everything will be fine.
We need to know what the government knew. Again, this has nothing to do with the performance of our soldiers on the ground. I keep hearing members on the other side saying that we do not support our soldiers, but there is not a member in the House who does not support our troops.
However, the issue is that we do not have confidence in the ability of the government to provide the truth, if it is not willing to give us information. We have two binders of information that are basically useless, because the information was redacted to the point where nobody could take it seriously. It is not easy to read a line and then a few words later on there are a few more words blocked out, and so on. There are pages that are completely blacked out. Who is the government kidding? As for the situation now, the government has denied the request of the committee on November 25 to see the uncensored documents. We said that we needed to see the documents.
There is a concern about whether or not this information should be in the hands of Parliament. We heard from Rob Walsh, a well respected law clerk and parliamentary counsel, whose view is that section 38 does not apply and that in this case, in fact, the supremacy of Parliament dominates.
Therefore, there are clearly ways for a committee to operate with a few sensitive documents, although these documents are obviously not sensitive for certain journalists who have had unfettered access to them. They are obviously not sensitive for certain witnesses who have come before committee and have had access to them in full. However, elected members of Parliament who have a responsibility for oversight apparently cannot be trusted with this information. As a member of the Privy Council, I cherish that title; but, unfortunately, I no longer have the ability to access such documents.
The reality is that either we are serious about this issue and serious about getting to the truth and about our international image and human rights, or we are not. If we are not, then the role of the committee is called into question. We have a parliamentary motion from March 2008 that was extremely clear on the issue of oversight, and particularly on anything to do with detainees. Therefore, this is absolutely fundamental to me.
The House of Commons public accounts committee recently tabled a report that outlines the constitutional right of Parliament to demand information and how parliamentary supremacy triumphs over all laws. In a letter dated December 7, my colleague from Vancouver South, our defence critic, indicated very clearly that parliamentary supremacy does in fact triumph and that we should have access to the documents. This was not something written on the back of an envelope; it was a very detailed letter outlining our case. Let me quote from that letter, which states in regard to the relationship between the government and the House and its committees that:
The law of parliamentary privilege provides that this relationship operates unencumbered by legal constraints that might otherwise seem applicable.
Therefore, we need to have this information and to be able to judge for ourselves.
The member for Vancouver South goes on to outline the following:
Sections 37 to 38.16, CEA, do not provide that they apply to the House or its committees and therefore cannot be read as applying to Committee proceedings or overriding the Committee's exclusive authority with respect to its proceedings.
Finally, if that is not clear enough for members on the other side, though I know it is clear enough on this side, let me just add the following. In keeping with the principles of responsible government, no part of the responsibilities of government can, by law, be categorically excluded or removed from its constitutional accountability to the House and its committees. Otherwise it would soon become only partial accountability and perhaps, after some years, no accountability at all.
It would be very troublesome to me if the government were not accountable at all. We are very fortunate that in this country we have a very functional, lively, probing opposition. The function of the opposition, of all three parties in opposition, is to keep the government on its toes. We look at cases in some countries around the world where the opposition is viewed as more of a pain. I am sure that members of the government see us as a pain from time to time, but the right of this opposition is to keep members of the government on their toes.
The right to order the production of documents is a matter of law. That is what we asked. On November 25 we said that we wanted to see these documents, unfettered. Mr. Walsh, again, said that if the committee asks for information, it gets it. Unfortunately, it is now December 10 and we do not have that information. The government should be following the rules. It must provide the documents that are requested.
This is troubling. This morning a poll indicated that Canadians are quite troubled. We are not just talking on behalf of ourselves. Canadians get it. Canadians understand the importance of this issue and what it means for Canada internationally.
At a policy level, responsibility lies with the government. It is up to the government to provide the information. I am sure if my friends on the other side were over here, and I know this for a fact because I have sat over there, they would be howling and screaming that we were obstructing the ability of a committee to do its work. In fact, the government is obstructing. As the government, it knows that we do not have the access that we need.
Obviously, protecting the rights of the detainees was part of that resolution. In terms of NATO it is our international responsibility to do that. We cannot knowingly turn a blind eye. My great fear is that the government wants to turn a blind eye and move on. This is unacceptable.
One of the things we are doing in Afghanistan, working with the justice ministry and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, is we are enhancing human rights. We are talking about and seeing the application of the rule of law. If we are no better than the Taliban, then we are not doing our job. In fact, we are much better. What we are doing is we are saying to the Afghan government that in order for it to deal with these kinds of issues, this is what it needs to know and this is how to apply it. When I was in Kandahar and Kabul I saw for myself the type of in-depth instructions that Afghan police and soldiers get.
Unfortunately, there have been abuses. Even one credible case, which we now have from back in June 2006, means there could be others. Until the other day, the government said there were none. It accused us of all sorts of things. The reality is that one is too many. Obviously that is of great concern and why we therefore need a public inquiry. Only a public inquiry headed by a judge will get to the bottom of this, because the judge will have the ability to get all of the information needed in order to conduct the inquiry.
We saw what happened to the Military Police Complaints Commission. That has been shut down. The government has called public inquiries on other things, but on something as fundamental to Canadians, fundamental in terms of human rights, fundamental in terms of the rule of law, the government is stonewalling and saying no.
After yesterday, I would suggest there are no more excuses. There are no more deceptions. There is no more stonewalling. We need it. In fact, there is a resolution which the New Democratic Party put forward and which we endorsed as a majority in this House calling for that.
I would suggest that we will not get the facts as long as the government continues to obstruct. Therefore, a public inquiry is needed. It is needed to clear the air, and it is certainly needed for Canadians.
