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Crucial Fact

  • His favourite word was debate.

Last in Parliament October 2015, as Conservative MP for South Shore—St. Margaret's (Nova Scotia)

Won his last election, in 2011, with 43% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Nisga'A Final Agreement Act November 1st, 1999

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise in the House again to debate the Nisga'a treaty, Bill C-9. Hopefully I will dispel some of the rumours, innuendo and plain mistakes that have been cited in the House about the treaty and perhaps about the way we deal with first nations in the future of the country.

As with any piece of negotiation, as with any agreement where two parties sit down to try to formulate a long lasting and permanent treaty, one side will negotiate some issues more vociferously and adamantly than the other side and they compromise. At the end of the process hopefully they come up with a treaty which reflects the interests of both parties. In this case it actually reflects the interests of three parties: the Nisga'a nation, the province of British Columbia and the Government of Canada.

The treaty was not something that was entered into in a frivolous manner. It was negotiated over 110 years and now it is in the House. I certainly condemn the government for forcing closure on this piece of legislation and not allowing free, open and continuous debate. However we have reached the point where we are at closure in the House and I think there are a couple of basic points which need to be reiterated one more time in this place so everyone who is listening or watching or interested in the proceedings today understands the basic premises of the treaty.

We know that the Nisga'a stand to gain a number of things in the treaty. They stand to gain nearly 2,000 square kilometres of land in the Nass Valley which have always been their traditional lands. They stand to gain 18% of the salmon catch in the Nass River. With the salmon stocks where they are, obviously 18% of the salmon catch today is not significant. Eighteen per cent of the salmon catch in the future with conservation applied could be extremely significant and a great opportunity for both commercial and industrial growth.

Certainly, there is a settlement of $190 million which will go directly to the Nisga'a from the federal government.

The Nisga'a will have a sustainable allowable cut in the valley from their numbers of 115,000 cubic metres of fibre per year. The point should be made that since timber has been cut in the Nass Valley starting in 1958, in the last number of years 250,000 cubic metres have been harvested on an annual basis. That is more than double the sustainable allowable cut of the Nass River Valley. To cut that back to 115,000 or 120,000 cubic metres of fibre is a sensible, responsible and conservation based way to harvest timber.

There is a 10 year agreement on taxation. That agreement is based on eight years for provincial tax and ten years for federal tax. Surely, even the most rabid opponents to this bill can understand that this is the way we should deal with first nations in the future.

On the argument that this is possibly some sort of a template, our forefathers made a decision many years ago to deal with first nations in Canada on a nation to nation basis. This is not a template. This is a treaty between the Nisga'a nation, the Government of Canada and the province of British Columbia. This treaty will be looked at when we negotiate other treaties, but it is not a template for another treaty. We base each treaty on its own merit given the number of band members, the geographical area and the traditional territory that they once held sway over.

There will be 300,000 decametres of water flow from the Nass River, or 1% of the total water flow in the Nass Valley, which will be set aside for Nisga'a use for possible future industrial purposes.

Moreover, the rights of the Nisga'a are protected, the right of language and the rights over culture.

Many members have stood in the House and argued that this is a race based government. It is patently unfair to say that. People stood in the House and said that non-Nisga'a will not be allowed to vote in this government. Quite honestly, non-Nisga'a are not allowed to vote for chief and council now. Non-natives have never been able to on any reserve in Canada. This is a step beyond that, with full recognition of inherent rights of first nations in British Columbia and in the rest of the country.

The thing we do not hear about in the House is the fact that non-natives living in Nisga'a territory will have rights. Those rights are protected by the constitution of Canada, the charter of rights and by the Nisga'a government. They will have their property ownership in fee simple. They will even own the road beds and have rights of way to the road bed and highway leading to those pieces of property. To say that non-Nisga'a have no rights in the Nass Valley after this treaty finally goes forth is patently false.

The other thing that has been misrepresented about this treaty is that the charter of rights and freedoms will not apply. The charter of rights and freedoms does apply. The constitution of Canada applies. There should be no mistaking those two issues because they are basic to the democratic rights of all Canadians.

I would like to read an excerpt from the treaty on the charter of rights and freedoms. Section 32(1) states that the charter of rights and freedoms applies. I heard a lot of members try to make the argument that the charter of rights and freedoms does not apply. This charter applies to the Parliament and Government of Canada in respect of all matters within the authority of parliament, and to the legislature and government of each province in respect to all matters within the authority of the legislature of each province. As it relates to the Nisga'a final agreement, “the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms applies to the Nisga'a government in respect to all matters within its authority, bearing in mind the free and democratic nature of Nisga'a government as set out in this agreement”.

This means that the charter of rights applies within the parameters of section 1 of the charter of rights and freedoms which says that rights are guaranteed in a free and democratic society. This is not rocket science. This is pretty basic stuff that should not be misconstrued, or manipulated in a manner that was not meant to be implemented.

Therefore if the charter of rights is breached, apparently it is okay as long as it would be accepted in a free and democratic society or in other words if government can justify the infringement. It is no different for the Nisga'a government than it is for the Canadian government or for any provincial government. This is a basic right that gives a level playing field for all Canadians, whether those Canadians are aboriginal Canadians or non-aboriginal Canadians.

Quite frankly we have to decide how we are going to deal with first nations in this government. A few rules and parameters have already been set down which we have to abide by.

I will go back to when Canada became a nation in 1867. Our forefathers made a decision that we would recognize first nations in this country nation to nation. Surely we cannot turn our back on that concept now.

I am running out of time but one more point needs to be made. We should stop mixing up aboriginal rights as granted under the Sparrow decision and aboriginal title. They are two distinct and separate things. To put them all into one grey area that they are exactly the same thing is patently wrong. It is misleading to all Canadians who are interested in this important debate. It should be an informed debate. All of the issues need to be brought out and discussed in the light of day. I do not think there is anything to be ashamed of but there is a lot to be gained.

In conclusion, there are three ways we could deal with first nations. We could have open warfare which is not acceptable nor wanted by either party. We could try to negotiate or deal with first nations through the court system which is another mistake because no one gains at the end of it. Quite often the issues become more blurred. Or we could sit down and negotiate modern day treaties which is obviously what the Nisga'a treaty represents.

Fisheries November 1st, 1999

Mr. Speaker, since the Marshall decision of September 17 the only agreement reached has been negotiated without government help. Does the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans have a plan to implement when this crisis returns next spring?

Young Offenders October 29th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, I rise today in support of tougher penalties for young offenders.

In the spring of this year two young men, aged 16 and 17, forced their way into the home of Stuart and Ruth Hebb. One viciously beat 90 year old Mr. Hebb, stopping only after he was unconscious. Both then turned their abuse upon 74 year old Mrs. Hebb, who was struck and threatened with the same fate as her husband.

Because these young offenders tore the phone from the wall the elderly couple waited, one victim too injured to move and the other too traumatized to leave her husband's side, until help arrived many hours later.

The punishment in this case has been a mere slap on the wrist, with one of the offenders getting three years in custody and the other two years in custody and a year of probation.

The Hebbs, on the other hand, have received a life sentence. Their lives can never be the same. The sanctuary of their home was invaded and their safety in the community questioned. They live in constant fear of future retaliation; not a pleasant way to spend what should be their golden years.

Supply October 28th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, I was listening to the member's speech and, for the life of me, I do not know in which direction he is headed. He started at one point in the circle and he chased himself all the way around the circle. I will ask him a direct question which has to do with foreign ownership.

On October 26 the minister said that he would address the 10% foreign ownership regulation. He said that he would take another look at it. That has not happened yet, but there is a lot of discussion on it. The minister is willing to look at it. We now have a new Onex bid, with direct Liberal connections, that is apparently proposing 14.5% foreign ownership.

If the minister wanted to open this up for direct competition, would it not have been better to open up the foreign ownership bid early on when the Competition Act was cancelled? When the foreign ownership part is opened up 78 days later there are fewer people willing to put a bid together in the timeframe that is left during the 90 days when the regulations of the Competition Act have been suspended.

We are stifling competition. We are allowing one person to bid because they have already done their homework, they have already spent millions of dollars, and they already know how much and what limit they can reach.

Supply October 28th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, I picked two words from the member's speech. Those two words were transparent and competitive, that the process is transparent and competitive. What is transparent is the strategy used by the government to make sure one company and one company only takes over the airlines. It is very transparent.

The member stated that on October 26 the minister started a new strategy and in a new direction to see how the airline would eventually be taken over. He would make the process more competitive by perhaps abandoning the 10% rule to allow an airline or a company to own more than 10% of a Canadian airline. We must realize that by October 26 there were only 16 days left in the process. There are only 14 days left in the process now. Suddenly we are opening it up.

By some type of a miracle or coincidence Onex puts a bid in for 14.5% Canadian ownership. It is a coincidence. I understand that, but the bottom line is that if he wanted to make the process competitive, should he not have changed the 10% rule at the very beginning of the process? Probably a number of other bidders would have bid on the process at that time. However, 74 days into the process they have been cut out. They will not come in now with a new plan so what we really have to do is extend the timeframe.

Nisga'A Final Agreement Act October 26th, 1999

Madam Speaker, I have one question and a point that I would like to raise. The hon. member says that private property rights are not protected in the Nisga'a agreement when in reality if he has read the agreement he must be aware that private property rights are protected in the agreement.

Private landowners, non-Nisga'a landowners who live in the Nass Valley, are not under the Nisga'a agreement. They still have full title to their property. It even goes so far as to give them ownership of the roadbeds leading to that property. Therefore private property rights are definitely protected.

I find it a bit incongruous that government members are not standing to debate and defend the Nisga'a agreement. They have left it up to opposition parties in the House that may or many not agree with each other. Surely the Government of Canada, which represents the people of Canada, should be doing the job of defending the treaty that I am on my feet doing right now. It is a good treaty and I would like to hear more from government members. I would like to hear from the hon. member on that.

Nisga'A Final Agreement Act October 26th, 1999

Madam Speaker, I have listened to the Reform's debate and, quite frankly, it seems that we come around to this point every time where the Reform wants to take this wrecking ball approach to public policy debate. If nothing is working, we tear it all down to the base common denominator and then somehow build some constructive process on top of that after there is nothing there to start with.

There has been a fair amount of talk about the Supreme Court of Canada. We have gone to the supreme court far too many times in dealing with first nations in the country. Every time we have gone to the supreme court we end up with a decision that binds us by law to abide by and to live with.

When the member looks at the Sparrow, Delgamuukw, Simon, Gladstone, Smokehouse and all of the supreme court decisions of the last decade and some from the decade before, would he advise us to continue to go to the supreme court? I have heard the comments about what is happening on the east coast of Canada.

Or, are we not far better off to sit down in a public policy debate with first nations, the federal government and the provincial governments and establish some type of a treaty process, that may not be perfect for everybody but is perfect for the majority, and come to some concrete examples and terms of a decision that all Canadian can live by?

Does the hon. member not think that this is a much better process than allowing the Supreme Court of Canada to dictate Canadian laws to Canadians?

Nisga'A Final Agreement Act October 26th, 1999

Madam Speaker, it states very clearly in the Nisga'a final agreement that the rights of Nisga'a men and women are equal and protected under the law. It states that very clearly. Let us put aside the assertion that somehow there is inequality between men and women in the agreement.

The other assertion that needs to be set aside is that this is not a democratic process or is not democratic enough, or it could be more democratic. The Nisga'a government went before its own people and 61% of the voters in Nisga'a lands voted in support of the agreement. Looking at the total number of people in the Nisga'a lands, 75% voted for the agreement. The Reform Party itself agreed to change the way that party works. Some 25% of Reform Party members voted for that and it was good enough. I would like a comment from the member.

Nisga'A Final Agreement Act October 26th, 1999

Madam Speaker, the hon. member who just spoke referenced several issues that deal with the constitution and the charter of rights and freedoms. The Constitution Act, 1982 states very clearly in subsection 52(1):

The Constitution of Canada is the supreme law of Canada, and any law that is inconsistent with the provisions of the Constitution is, to the extent of the inconsistency, of no force or effect.

It is my understanding that the constitution of Canada applies to the Nisga'a treaty and that the charter of rights and freedoms applies to the Nisga'a treaty. That can be argued in several different directions and the Reform Party has done that in several instances.

I would like the hon. member's opinion on whether or not the charter of rights and freedoms applies and whether or not the constitution of Canada applies.

Nisga'A Final Agreement Act October 26th, 1999

Mr. Speaker, I agree that all Canadians need to fully understand this treaty and its implications. I support informed, full, clear, open and continued debate on this issue. I stated earlier that the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada does not in any way, shape or form support closure on this matter.

The hon. member for Selkirk—Interlake had several other questions. One of them I had a bit of difficulty following, but it certainly was a bit of a contradiction. He stated that he supported dealing with first nations on a nation to nation basis, and I think the hon. member has a full understanding of how the constitution of Canada applies to first nations and the fact that we do deal with the 630 first nations in Canada on a nation to nation basis.

However, he also thought that the Nisga'a referendum should have had some dialogue or something in the process to allow for comments. Perhaps he was talking about overlapping land claims or other first nations who live in northern B.C. If we accept the theory that we deal with first nations in Canada on a nation to nation basis, then we cannot say that other first nations should have some say in the treaty that we formulate and go forward with for the Nisga'a. We cannot have it both ways. It can only be one way or the other.

The important thing to understand is that the charter of rights and freedoms will still prevail. The constitution of Canada will still prevail. The Nisga'a government will be a municipal style of government with some provincial rights and some federal rights. At the end of the day we will give the Nisga'a people an opportunity to move forward, to go into the second millennium and have their rightful place as equal partners in the Canadian federation.