Gérard Asselin

[Supply, October 28th, 1999]

Madam Speaker, we are of course pleased to have the support of the NDP, the Conservatives and the Reform Party. The Bloc Quebecois will back them one hundred percent.

There must be a few Liberal MPs who support this motion, such as the hon. members from Lac—Saint-Louis, Vaudreuil—Soulanges and Thunder Bay, and I trust Mr. Lalonde will stir up some Quebec members.

The primary intent of the Bloc Quebecois' motion was to inform the public on issues relating to the future of air transportation, as well as to ensure that this situation was treated fairly and in the same way as the Caisse de dépôt et de placement du Québec when it was told that one could not invest more than 10% in the CN. The maximum for Petro-Canada and the banks is also 10%. Why should it be different for Onex? What complicity is going on between the Minister of Transport and One x?

[Supply, October 28th, 1999]

Madam Speaker, I >have a little more time than before to put my question.

As I was saying, after meeting with Canadian and Intercanadian, the numbers are not there because it is expensive and it is expensive because the numbers are not there, in short, it is a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg. Or it is the case of Maple Leaf sausages, the more we eat, the more we like it, and the more we like it, the more we eat. We live with that.

I would like to put my question by citing an example. There are two sorts of travelers. There are those obliged to travel and those travelling on holiday.

The first type of traveller may be a business person who must get from point A to point B, for example from Baie-Comeau to Montreal. That person must be in both places on the same day, then come back the next morning to be at work. Another example is a person who leaves Baie-Comeau for treatment in Quebec City or in Montreal, and who comes back the same day or the next day. The return trip between Baie-Comeau and Montreal for such a traveller not leaving the country costs $900.

If a person travels from Baie-Comeau to Montreal on his or her way to Paris or Florida, or anywhere outside the country, for a holiday, it will cost that person $285. Where is the problem? The problem is that people in the regions pay for the air miles that frequent flyers collect. Some airlines give air miles and access to the V.I.P. lounge, but the person who must travel on business, or for treatment, helps pay these promotions from major airlines.

That should be abolished. I said earlier that we should help the regional carriers that bring passengers to hubs and to interprovincial or international carriers, so as to have lower airfares.

After talking to people from the chamber of commerce—and all chambers of commerce make representations at that level—one realizes that they are penalized, in terms of the airfare, because they leave from a region to go to a major centre. They are told that this is because the aircraft is half empty, or half full if one is an optimist. But the problem is that it is not profitable.

Why? Because it is costly. Let us eliminate the gadgets and the promotional items and let us provide competitive prices for the regions. In order to do that, the Minister of Transport must promote regional development in the context of the air transportation industry. I would like to hear the hon. member's comments on this.

[Supply, October 28th, 1999]

Madam Speaker, recently I met with representatives of Air Canada, its subsidiary Air Alliance and Canadian International Airlines.

The problem facing the managers of these two companies is that their service is expensive in the regions because they do not have enough passengers. If so, it is also because prices are high.

I would ask my colleague if she would support, in the restructuring of airline services in Canada, having a carrier for international flights and an interprovincial carrier and having unrestricted competition to serve the regions. Local carriers would serve them and feed into the hubs for interprovincial and international flights.

I think we would then have more and better service regionally.

[Supply, October 28th, 1999]

Madam Speaker, as I said this morning in my speech, the Bloc Quebecois has contributed and will keep on contributing to the improvement of air transport in Canada, especially in Quebec regions.

Journalists will report again that Bloc Quebecois members are well prepared, that they attend every committee meeting, every sitting of the House. Aware of the urgency of the situation, today the Bloc Quebecois moved an opposition motion with a view to informing Canadians of what an airline merger will mean for them.

After putting questions to Air Canada officials, the minister, officials from the competition bureau, and Canadian Airlines yesterday, the committee will have the opportunity to hear from Onex next week.

From what Air Canada and Canadian Airlines were able to tell us in response to our questions, we have learned that Canadian Airlines has been talking to the transport minister since January 1999.

We are going through turbulent times. The air transport industry is going through a storm. The minister took it upon himself to amend section 47, essentially telling the competition bureau: “This is none of your business, I am using section 47 to give the airlines 90 days to prepare their bid and come to an agreement.”

Why did the minister not ask Canadian Airlines and Air Canada to sit at the table as early as January? Why did he not ask both major Canadian carriers to sit down together? Instead, he waited and opened up section 47 at the request of Onex. Then Onex tabled its bid. Air Canada made another bid. Onex had no choice but to make a higher offer. The decision will be up to the shareholders, those who own shares in Air Canada and Canadian Airlines. They will accept the best proposal with no regard for which offers the better service.

They will not look to see whether Rouyn-Noranda, Témiscamingue, the north shore, Manicouagan, or Gaspé have improved service. They will look to see which is the better deal. Shareholders will decide, not parliamentarians, and they will do it according to the proposals put before them.

The minister made promises to Onex. Onex said “I have a problem. If I become the major manager, if I put in a lot of money, I am taking a risk with the 10% rule”. So the minister replied “Well, we will increase it, we will change the Competition Act”.

Could the hon. member for Témiscamingue tell me why the 10% rule should be changed in this case, when it was not changed for Petro Canada? The Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec was prevented from investing in CP Rail, and was told: “No, it is 10%”. The federal government said, about the bank mergers, “No, it is 10%”.

In this case, the Minister of Transport is saying “Onex will serve American interests, I will not have to subsidize anymore, to prop up an air carrier. It makes no difference if 10,000 jobs are lost. It does not bother me. You deal with the problem. Tell us what you need to buy both airlines. As for section 47, it is a done deed. We will amend the Competition Act. And as for the 10%, we will increase it to 25%”.

Why is the minister prepared to do so in this case, when it was not allowed in other cases?

[Supply, October 28th, 1999]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for Manicouagan for all this information. I did not have the time to read the press clippings this morning.

Yesterday, the minister told the transport committee “Safety remains Transport Canada's top priority”.

It takes some nerve on the part of an MP or a minister to say such things. How can the minister explain that, in Quebec's north shore and Gaspé region, we have had three plane crashes in eight months.

A Mira Aviation plane crashed on landing in Gaspé.A Nordair plane crashed in Sept-Îles, in the riding of Manicouagan. People were injured and the passengers had to call for help, because no one had seen the crash. Finally, an Air Satellite plane crashed in Baie-Comeau on December 7. That accident was witnessed by a six-year old girl, from her parents' residence.

When the federal government delegated to Nav Canada responsibility for transport safety, Nav Canada made cuts at the expense of passenger safety. It reduced the number of air traffic controllers, shut down control towers, and eliminated firefighting services at airports. Now, the federal government wants to privatize those airports, which already are not viable.

My questions to the hon. member for Manicouagan are as follows. Does he think that, in the region of Manicouagan and particularly in Sept-Îles—which is currently served by two airlines, namely Air Alliance and Canadian Airlines—the airport will be more viable? Will there be better customer service? Will travel agencies in his riding gain anything? They create jobs in his riding and provide ticket, reservation and checking services. The number of passengers will increase. Since 1996, travel agencies have been losing money. Yet, they create jobs. Could the hon. member tell me about his concern regarding current versus future airline services in Sept-Îles, which is the largest city of his riding of Manicouagan?

[Supply, October 28th, 1999]

Madam Speaker, my colleague from Abitibi—Baie James—Nunavik comes from a region similar to the north shore. It is served frequently by two airlines, but services are very limited.

The member will have to convince me that the level of air transportation services depends on the merger. Will a merger ensure efficient air transportation services in the regions, be it through Onex, Air Canada or Canadian?

The quality of services at airports is already in jeopardy. Services in the regions have been diminishing. The frequency of flights is left up to the carriers. The price of a ticket is very high for travellers who have to fly.

I would like the member for Abitibi—Baie James—Nunavik to reassure me that the transport minister's involvement and his being in connivance with Onex on this issue will in no way hinder any possible agreement between Canadian and Air Canada.

If Onex were to acquire Air Canada and Canadian, I have my doubts, I fear, and I am almost convinced that this company would serve American interests first and foremost. I would rather we maintain our autonomy with regard to air transportation, with Canadians keeping control of the airline industry.

[Supply, October 28th, 1999]

Mr. Speaker, any discussion about regional transportation is a discussion about an essential service. It is not a luxury to travel by air when one lives in the regions.

Consideration must also be given to travel agencies and passenger safety. As the Minister said in his speech “Safety remains Transport Canada's top priority”.

How can the minister explain that, just under a year ago, on December 7 in Baie-Comeau, a plane registered to Mira Aviation in Gaspé crashed, unbeknownst to any air traffic controller?

How does the minister explain that a Nordair plane flying out of Sept-Îles crashed, forcing passengers to walk several kilometres through a wooded area to reach a road and obtain help?

How does the minister explain that, last December 7, an Air Satellite plane operating out of Baie-Comeau crashed, and that it was a six-year old girl who discovered the plane?

This is air service? This is the sort of good service Nav Canada is providing? I would not want to alarm the public, but I worry when I take a plane these days. If it was important to have air traffic controllers and firefighters in 1975, it is even more important to have them in 1999.

[Supply, October 28th, 1999]

Mr. Speaker, this morning we learned from Canadian International Airlines that there have been discussions and an exchange of letters since January with the Minister of Transport.

Yet this week the Minister of Transport told us that he found out about it in June, that he had to intervene in June. We mentioned some ridings, but there are other Liberal MPs in Quebec.

They were, of course, present when the minister appeared before the Standing Committee on Transport, because there were some 25 to 30 cameras in the room and all the journalists were there. As soon as the cameras left the room, the number of Liberal MPs dropped by half, and a lot of chairs were left vacant.

The speeches by the members for Beauce and for Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik show that they are out of touch with the situation. They are just trying to please the minister, without even knowing what the consequences of the famous 10% rule will be. Why did the minister allow section 47 of the Competition Act to be amended?

If either of the two members were asked what section 47 was, he would probably not be able to say.

[Supply, October 28th, 1999]

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member for Charlevoix and a member of the Standing Committee on Transport, I believe we have a lot of work to do and a huge mandate to fulfil as a result of airline mergers and the restructuring of air transportation services in Canada.

We have been going through turbulence for some time now. The Minister of Transport has tried to maintain Canadian Airlines and Air Canada. Unfortunately, in January, Canadian Airlines told the Minister of Transport it was in great financial difficulty, on the brink of bankruptcy. Of course, it will not go bankrupt as long as Canadian Airlines' suppliers do not take action.

Reporters will probably write, as they have done before, that members of the Bloc Quebecois attend their committee meetings regularly and are well prepared. They are in Ottawa to defend Quebec's interests and to improve Canada.

As long as Quebec sends tax money to Ottawa, as a member of the Bloc Quebecois, as the hon. member for Charlevoix and as deputy critic for transport, I will fulfil my responsibilities.

The Bloc Quebecois has decided today, given the urgency of this debate, to inform the public by making use of an opposition day. The Bloc Quebecois had been asking that the Standing Committee on Transport be convened since July. For various reasons, including members' holidays, the adjournment of the House, the throne speech, we were told the committee could not sit.

Oddly enough, the committee did meet, with members of the New Democratic Party, of the Reform Party, of the Bloc Quebecois and of the Conservative Party. The only people who did not show up were the Liberals. Yet, for two days, the ad hoc committee heard from witnesses who came from all over Canada to raise members' awareness about the importance of restructuring air transportation services in Canada.

Considering the seriousness of all those people, the Bloc Quebecois introduced a motion today. That motion reads as follows:

That this House reaffirms its desire to maintain the provisions of section 6.1( a ) of the Air Canada Public Participation Act limiting ownership of the capital stock of Air Canada by any person or group to 10% of the voting shares.

Of course, the Bloc Quebecois explained its position which is that the role of a responsible government is to act like a referee whose primary concern is protection of the public interest. Changing the act would favour one party over the other and that is called cheating. If the government changes the act to suit Onex or AMR, that would send the signal that private companies do not have to comply with the law but that the government has to adapt the law to suit its friends.

The 10% rule applies to Petro Canada, banks and several other public interest corporations. Changing that rule would be contrary to public interest. The 10% rule was put in place to prevent a single group from gaining control of Air Canada, one of the two national air carriers. The government wants to change the rule to allow a group to gain control of the only remaining carrier. That would be putting the future of the air carrier in the hands of only one group. By refusing to state its position, the government is feeding the uncertainty that currently exists in the airline industry.

Of course the committee has a clear mandate, witnesses to hear, hearings to hold. I hope this time the Minister of Transport is going to listen to the committee's recommendations. We know what happened when it was time to restructure the shipping industry. Every political party had an input and made recommendations to the minister. I am convinced unfortunately that he had already made up his mind on how the shipping industry was going to be restructured, even before the committee sat down to write its report.

As I said earlier in my speech, we are going through very turbulent times and Canadians are very concerned. When a plane is going through turbulence or a storm, people on board are worried and feel powerless.

Our constituents, who are watching us, who sent us here to represent them, are concerned about the future of air transportation, especially in the regions. Under the bid of Onex or AMR, the merger of Air Canada and Canadian could result in the loss of 5,000 to 10,000 jobs. According to the president of Air Canada, Air Canada's offer to merge with Canadian could mean the loss of around 2,500 jobs. If the government does nothing, Canadian will likely go under and all its workers will lose their jobs.

What we in the Bloc Quebecois want is to maintain as many jobs as possible while ensuring the highest quality of service in the airline industry.

Later this week in committee I will ask the Minister of Transport the following question “Should there be a merger, what do you think the future of air transportation in the regions will be?” As you know, air transportation is of paramount importance in the regions. And yet, over the last few years, air service in the regions has been diminishing. Quality of service is in jeopardy, and flight frequency is left up to individual carriers.

For those who have no choice, plane tickets are very expensive. In a riding like Charlevoix, on the north shore, air transportation is the fastest way to get around, because we have no rail transportation and we have only one access road. Therefore, the only way to travel fast is by plane, and carriers know it only too well.

Travellers who have no choice use a particular type of service, for professional reasons. They are, for example, business people who need to travel within a very short timeframe or people from the regions who need to go to Quebec City or to Montreal to have access to certain health care services.

The merger of Air Canada and Canadian International Airlines is of great concern to us, especially the Onex proposal, because I think there is some kind of complicity between the Department of Transport, Canadian International Airlines and the future company.

With regard to the future of regional air service, we all know that airports are already losing money. If the number of flights to regional airports is reduced, we will no longer have what we have now, that is a red and white Air Alliance plane arriving at 8.55 a.m. and a blue and white Canadian Airlines plane arriving at 9.10 a.m. Some will say that the blue and white plane was half full and the other one was half empty, depending on which company they want to support.

We know that the number of flights is what makes an airport profitable. This means that a merger would reduce the profitability of airports by at least 50%. And when I think about what happened when the Department of Transport made Nav Canada responsible for airport management in order to reduce airport deficits, if the past is any indication of what we can expect in the future, then I am extremely worried.

We all know that Nav Canada cut services at airports by reducing the number of air traffic controllers, by closing control towers, by cutting airport firefighting services, all at the expense of passenger safety.

I see that my time is up. I could have gone on for at least another 40 minutes, but I will have the opportunity to come back to this later on.

[Bill C-77, May 13th, 1999]

Mr. Speaker, in addition to franchising Via Rail lines, the policies of the Minister of Transport will eliminate the cross-subsidization of bus lines, which allows regions to have such services.

Since the people in the regions are likely not to have access to either trains or buses, is the Minister of Transport not contributing through his policies to emptying the regions?