House of Commons photo

Crucial Fact

  • His favourite word was finance.

Last in Parliament October 2019, as NDP MP for Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques (Québec)

Lost his last election, in 2019, with 29% of the vote.

Statements in the House

Business of Supply June 10th, 2014

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question and for his persistence. It is an important question.

I am not here to lay out the NDP's 2015 election platform. I think he will acknowledge that, just as I would not necessarily ask him to share the Conservatives' economic platform for the next election.

However, what I spoke about—because it needed to be done—was the nuts and bolts of these measures and how they would work. What we have here is a measure that benefits primarily those with the largest pensions, and I am sure he would acknowledge this. If the government believes that tax relief should truly benefit those who need it most, this measure is not as effective as it could be. A the very least, it needs to be calibrated differently.

I used this example to warn the government. If ever it is re-elected in 2015 and decides to move forward with this measure, it should be careful. People can expect that the negative impact on Canada's economy, Canada's tax situation and all Canadian households will be far different from the promises that were made.

Business of Supply June 10th, 2014

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Bourassa for his question. I think this is the first time we have had the opportunity to talk directly to each other since his election to this institution.

Yes, I think the situation is a bone of contention, which has been widely reported in the media. The controversy did in fact start when Mr. Flaherty expressed serious reservations about whether income splitting was viable and appropriate. We then saw that the members of the Conservative caucus where very divided on it. There are some who are very much in favour of this measure. The voices supporting it are generally the ones of social Conservatives. That is because income splitting is an incentive. This measure is seen by a number of groups who are in favour of social conservatism in Canada as a measure that will encourage women to stay at home.

Take, for example, people with incomes of $100,000 or $150,000. Whether we like it or not, income disparity in our society is still considerable. There are significantly more men than women with high incomes. Clearly, if women stay at home, income splitting will be possible, whereas if women work, the gains will not be nearly as great. That might explain why the social Conservatives are in favour of these measures and why the fiscal Conservatives are against them. The fiscal Conservatives, as we see here, want the government to eventually use the surplus to pay down the debt and reinvest in important public services.

In that respect, I can indeed see a division within the Conservative caucus, and I look forward to seeing how our colleagues opposite will vote on this motion.

Business of Supply June 10th, 2014

Mr. Speaker, the question is appropriate. I addressed this to some extent in my speech, and I can expand upon it now.

Making life affordable for people is something we are very concerned about. The NDP has come up with a number of measures under the leadership of the member for Sudbury and the member for Québec, who are doing excellent work on this.

These measures are intended to help not only Canadian consumers with respect to credit cards and ATM fees, among other things, but also small and medium-sized enterprises, an important economic driver that is often overlooked in our economic policies.

This measure will cost the Canadian government over $3 billion in lost revenue. It is imperative to know how those surpluses should be allocated. Since 2006, Canada's debt has increased by 60%. Sixty per cent since 2006. We need to start recognizing this situation.

I know that the former finance minister, Mr. Flaherty, cared about this situation. That is probably one of the reasons why he voiced strong reservations about income splitting.

With any future budget surplus, the Canadian government must consider paying down the debt and possibly cutting taxes, which will benefit many Canadians, as well as reinvesting in public services. After the huge cuts, they really need it. They have often been misguided by various departments.

Business of Supply June 10th, 2014

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for Edmonton—Leduc, who is a highly respected member of the Standing Committee on Finance. His work is greatly appreciated by members of all the parties.

His question is relevant, but this is not necessarily about whether we would support it or not. My argument about pension income splitting focused on program logistics. Generally speaking, pensioners do not have as much income. Therefore, this will impact their income differently than it will the income of the general population.

If we look at the results, this program requires far more tax expenditures than initially forecast. There was no calibration at all.

Then, if you take everyone who is retired and divide them into two groups—one group for those with a higher income and the other with a lower income compared to the median—it becomes clear that 98% of the tax breaks will go to the 50% of pensioners who have a higher income.

Those who really need it, the people in the 50% with the lower income, will not benefit very much. It might lower their taxes by less than $20. Those who benefit are the retirees with a higher income.

It seems that calibration was not necessarily a consideration, and that is a very serious wake-up call for a much larger measure that would affect families with children.

Business of Supply June 10th, 2014

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak to an extremely important issue that I think is going to be one of the election issues in 2015.

We know that this was a Conservative promise, one that was made without much regard for reality or the social impacts of income splitting.

I want to briefly summarize what income splitting is, even though other MPs are generally doing the same. Nonetheless, it is good to go over the basics and the reasoning.

In their 2011 election platform, the Conservatives proposed allowing individuals to transfer a portion of their income to their spouse, to a maximum of $50,000, in order to put themselves in a lower tax bracket. This applies to families with children, of course.

There are several problems with such a measure. At first glance, it seems like a good idea. I think the government is currently trying to rebrand this measure and find a different name for it. We heard the minister of state talk about justice or fairness for families. On the contrary, this measure is unfair to families. If we look beyond the issue of whether up to $50,000 can be transferred, we see that this measure mostly benefits people with high incomes. A number of studies—the most notable of which are those conducted by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives and the C.D. Howe Institute—clearly showed that 85% to 86% of families will not benefit at all from this measure. It will benefit only 14% or 15% of Canadian families. How is that fair? It is not.

Clearly, this is an extremely costly measure for the federal government. It will be extremely costly in terms of the public services that will eventually be lost. The government is responsible for providing adequate funding, but the Conservatives have exactly the opposite philosophy in how they govern.

According to the two organizations' estimates, the measure will cost the various levels of government about $5 billion—$3 billion for the federal government and about $2 billion for the provincial governments. However these measures will benefit less than 15% of Canadians. Why are only 15% of Canadians benefiting? Let us look at those who will not benefit from this measure. I have a whole list. Clearly, income splitting will not do anything for single people because it affects families with children. It will not do anything for couples who do not have any children. It will not do anything for single-parent families, even though they could use a break, because the measure pertains to couples. Clearly, if a person does not have a spouse, income cannot be transferred. This measure will not do anything for families with children over the age of majority, even if those children are still dependants because they are going to school or they have a disability, for example. The taxation system provides for some tax credits in that regard, but the income splitting measure will not do anything for those individuals. Income splitting will not do anything for families where the parents have similar incomes. A family where both spouses are working and earning about $30,000 will not benefit from this measure at all. This measure does not do anything for parents who earn less than about $42,000 because they are in the lowest tax bracket. We can therefore see that the list of couples who will benefit from this measure is extremely small.

As a blatant example of inequity, consider the members of this House who have minor children and whose spouses or common-law partners are stay-at-home parents. We are people who would benefit from that. Here in the House, there are a number of members who are still young enough to have minor children. With our salary and a stay-at-home partner, if we can transfer up to a maximum of $50,000, we would personally benefit from about $5,000 in tax cuts. Do we want the $5,000? In society, that might benefit us personally. However, ultimately, we need the money far less than couples who, for instance, have trouble making ends meet and where each person has a salary of $20,000 or $25,000. Both must work to provide for their family. We therefore must think of the example we have here in this House.

In terms of the list of exceptions, I will move on to the question of good governance.

As I mentioned, income splitting would increase income inequality, since the wealthiest families would be the ones benefiting from it, as only one spouse needs to work and earns a salary that is high enough to provide for the family.

We are also wondering whether, after balancing the budget, the Conservatives are prepared to do without $3 billion in revenue.

The Conservative government often talks about the late Jim Flaherty, former finance minister. However, before he died, Mr. Flaherty had given the Conservative government a serious warning that this measure was extremely risky and that it had to be studied because it would only benefit a few segments of society, leaving out many families who would have far greater need of it.

In our view, this measure is completely inappropriate. At the time, Mr. Flaherty had warned the government that this measure was risky because, if the government wanted to balance its budget eventually, it had to make choices. Does the government want to throw the country back into deficit right away by providing additional tax cuts once it balances the budget, or does it want to use the surplus for other things such as debt reduction?

Since the Conservatives took power—so since the 2005 public accounts were released—Canada's debt has increased from $421 billion to $667 billion. That figure will be even higher this year. That is an increase of $256 billion—or over 60%—since the Conservatives took power. Do the Conservatives want to use the future surplus to pay down the debt? No, they are talking about offering tax cuts, which will create an even bigger deficit.

That is what happened when they lowered the GST from 7% to 5% and we saw our revenues drop by $8 billion a year. In 2008, even before the recession, the Conservatives had started running a deficit as a result of this measure and the additional corporate tax cuts.

The Conservatives brag about being good managers, but at the end of the day, they are the ones who put us in a deficit situation. Aside from the period between 2006 and 2008, when they came to power and eliminated the federal government's fiscal space, the last time a Conservative government introduced a balanced budget was in 1912—yet they brag about being good managers.

My colleague from Kings—Hants mentioned the provinces and income inequality, but he ignored the fact that transfers to the provinces were cut by 40%. These cuts obviously made things tough for the provinces. He blames the provinces for the increase in income inequality. He also blames Liberal, Conservative and New Democrat governments for a situation they inherited from the federal Liberal government at the time.

The NDP has a better record on balancing budgets than provincial and federal Conservative governments. The governments of Tommy Douglas, Gary Doer and Roy Romanow introduced balanced budgets for over 10 to 15 years, and meanwhile, the federal government was running deficits under the Liberals and Conservatives.

The NDP is, without a doubt, the party that is most likely to properly manage public finances for the public good and is considered as the party that properly manages taxpayers' money. After assessing the situation, the Department of Finance agrees with us.

The United States has income splitting, and I am certain a Conservative member will point this out. In fact, it is not so much that the U.S. has adopted income splitting, but rather that it has adopted a basic unit of taxation. Unlike Canada, where the individual is the basic unit of taxation, the family is the basic unit of taxation in the U.S. There are historical reasons for that approach.

In the mid-20th century, the United States needed to unify its taxation policies. A number of states considered the individual as the basic unit of taxation, while others considered it to be the family. Eventually, they had to simplify matters. A broad debate on taxation was held, and the outcome was a more or less simplified taxation system.

The process involved defining the basic unit of taxation. The U.S. decided that it should be the family. A number of commissions, including the Carter commission, and several committees studied the issue. The Carter commission was the last great commission to undertake a reform of the taxation system. After two years criss-crossing the country, the commission produced a report, which was greatly watered down by the subsequent Liberal government, this being the 1970s after all, but widely hailed by academics and tax experts. The report recommended that the individual be considered as the basic unit of taxation. This provision allows for a simpler tax system that everyone can agree on.

Now the government wants to allow people to use the family as the basic unit of taxation in some cases and the individual in others. This will further complicate the taxation system, and if only for that reason, this is not a desirable policy option.

The government boasts of having already introduced pension income splitting. The tax cost of this initiative is already higher that originally forecast. At the end of the day, as a result of pension income splitting, Canada will lose $1.2 billion in tax revenues while the provinces overall stand to lose about $500 million.

This example gives us a pretty good idea of what income inequality would look like. Let us consider for a moment how this measure affects seniors. If we divide pensioners into two groups, one-half having the lowest incomes and the other half having the highest, we see that the half with the lowest incomes benefited from only 2% of the tax cuts as a result of pension income splitting. That means that the half with the highest incomes benefited from 98% of the tax cuts. What is more, the 10% of pensioners with the highest incomes benefited from 31% of the tax cuts.

The example of pension income splitting illustrates the scope of the problem and how the income gap will widen, not only as a result of this measure, but also as a result of the Conservatives’ proposed initiative.

Now then, will the government move forward with this initiative? It will be included in the next election platform. However, if we are to believe the current Minister of Finance and certain MPs, it is clear the government appears intent on moving forward. Moreover, instead of addressing additional income inequality issues, it is starting to rebrand to economists, journalists, the media and society as a whole the totally unfair policy of income splitting, which has now acquired a bad reputation. It will rebrand it as an exceedingly fair policy.

I am truly flabbergasted to see how blind this government is to such clear facts and figures. I am far less hopeful than my colleague from Kings—Hants, who spoke just before me, as to the will of the parties in the House to find some common ground for dealing with income inequality. It is clear that the Conservatives are turning a blind eye to this reality. For them, it is a matter of facilitating access to education and training. We are not opposed to that, but it will not be a cure-all. Initiatives have been taken in the past, and continue to be taken by this Conservative government and by various provincial governments, that increase the effects of income inequality. Some of the proposed initiatives, such as income splitting, will increase the problems, even exponentially.

When I talk about economists, it is quite interesting to see where these negative comments about income splitting are coming from. It is rare to see the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives and the C.D. Howe Institute agree, not only on the fact that this policy is harmful but also on the fact that it would have some financial ramifications.

I have a question for my colleagues who always boast of their sound management. Do they really want to take action that will once again put the federal government in a deficit situation, for the sole reason of bringing in a tax break that will benefit only 15% of Canadian households? Would they not rather show good governance and start tackling urgent issues?

We do not have any problem whatsoever with tax cuts for middle-class families, for families that need a break. However, such measures must be reconciled with measures to reduce the debt, which, may I remind you, has ballooned by 60% since the Conservative government was elected in 2006. Steps will also have to be taken after that to rebuild public services that have been devastated in recent years, especially since 2006.

Consider R and D, the environment and immigration, to name a few areas. All of these services to Canadians have been drastically cut, jeopardizing in the process services for which Canadians pay taxes and to which ultimately they are entitled. I suspect that one of strategies of the Conservative government, and of Conservatives in general, is to ensure a mismatch between the taxes paid to different levels of government and the services that Canadians receive for their tax dollars.

I know that a debate on immigration took place in the House until very late last night. I was astounded by a statistic I learned of during the 2013 holidays—if I am not mistaken— regarding a call centre in Montreal that was set up to respond to Canadians requiring a visa or experiencing immigration problems. The number of employees at the call centre was so drastically cut that 91% of telephone calls in December 2013 were lost in the system and never got through to an agent. In other words, only 9% of calls were answered by an agent.

How about we talk about the cuts to science made by the Conservative government? I know what the ramifications of these cuts are because there are a lot of scientists in my riding. Some scientists work at the Maurice-Lamontagne Institute. Others work at the Institut des sciences de la mer, ISMER, at UQAR. Still others work in a number of private sector companies that come under the umbrella of the Technopole maritime du Québec. A hub of expertise has sprung up in Rimouski and the lower Saint Lawrence valley in marine biotechnologies and maritime technologies in general. The cuts made by the government to the Maurice-Lamontagne Institute have resulted in an exodus of scientists from the region. This has hurt not only the region's economy, but also Canada’s reputation in the sciences.

Additionally, there were a number of measures imposed as part of the overhaul of the employment insurance system that are having a major impact on regions where the economy still relies heavily on seasonal employment. These measures are intended to diversify the economy, but that takes time. In reality, the measures imposed by the Conservative government are making the regions in question poorer. Ironically, the Conservatives’ slogan in 2011, at least in Quebec, was “Our regions in power”. Almost every measure imposed by the Conservative government has ended up hurting the regions and making them poorer.

I know that this issue will be a core plank of our election platform in 2015 in the lead-up to the next election. If what we are seeking is good governance, every measure to do with budget surpluses should be divided between logical tax cuts that benefit a broad cross-section of society rather than simply 15% of people, as income splitting would do, paying down the debt and reinvesting in a number of public services that have suffered considerably as a result of this Conservative government’s cutbacks.

This, therefore, is the principle of good governance that we espouse, and it corresponds to the good governance models of our New Democratic governments in the provinces. I hope that the government will listen to reason and scrap this ill-advised policy of income splitting in favour of adopting fiscal and economic policies that will benefit all Canadians and not just a small segment of the population.

Business of Supply June 10th, 2014

Mr. Speaker, I am on the Standing Committee on Finance with my colleague from Kings—Hants, and I would not want to leave out an important point, which is that the Conservatives blame the provincial governments for income inequality.

If the motion states that it is the federal Liberal and Conservative governments, that is because the Liberal government reduced spending in the 1990s by 40% for transfers like the Canada social transfer, which includes health care and social assistance.

I know that my colleague was not there, but the Liberal government at the time must take responsibility, which is why it is included in the motion.

However, when he spoke about common ground between the Conservatives, the New Democrats and the Liberals in the House on the issue of income inequality, it is clear that in committee the Conservatives denied the perception that we had of income inequality.

Would my colleague like to comment on the findings in the report of the Standing Committee on Finance and also on this perception that the Conservative government has of income inequality, which differs from ours and even from that of the Liberals?

Employment June 9th, 2014

Mr. Speaker, the Conservatives' refusal to launch a bidding process and make Lockheed Martin guarantee industrial spinoffs will do nothing to improve the employment situation.

On Friday, we learned that the unemployment rate has ballooned to 7% and that 60,000 full-time jobs have disappeared over the past two years. I should also point out that it is the public sector, which the Conservatives have been attacking relentlessly, that has saved the Canadian economy from disaster.

When will the Conservatives take employment seriously?

Economic Action Plan 2014 Act, No. 1 June 4th, 2014

Mr. Speaker, that question is very relevant to this debate, and it is far more relevant than much of what I have been hearing from the government benches.

My colleague spoke about the Jacques-Cartier Bridge, but I believe he meant to say the Champlain Bridge. However, this decision will also affect the Jacques-Cartier Bridge.

In general, tolls are used as a traffic control measure. The decision to place a toll on this specific piece of infrastructure will clearly have an impact on the other entry and exit routes.

If a toll is specifically imposed on the Champlain Bridge, many motorists and truck drivers will choose to use other routes, such as the Jacques-Cartier Bridge, the Victoria Bridge or the Louis-Hippolyte-LaFontaine tunnel. That tunnel will also likely need some work done.

In that context, this one decision will have a major impact on the city and on the provincial economy. As I said, nearly one-fifth of Quebec's GDP now crosses the Champlain Bridge.

We cannot call it ignorance, since the Conservative government has five Quebec MPs. However, we can say that the government is showing its contempt for the vision that the Quebec government and the Montreal authorities have for Montreal and the new Champlain Bridge.

The Champlain Bridge needs to be replaced because it is falling apart. The federal government failed to meet its responsibility to take good care of the bridge and now wants to make commuters pay the bill, even though the bridge serves Quebec's entire economic community.

Economic Action Plan 2014 Act, No. 1 June 4th, 2014

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his very good question. It allows me to elaborate on the subject.

This decision will be extremely detrimental. The government has not proven that the tax credit should be eliminated. On the contrary, the witnesses we heard from in committee criticized this government measure, especially the witnesses from Canada's Venture Capital and Private Equity Association, which represents private venture capital and labour-sponsored venture capital funds.

Canada is at the back of the pack when it comes to venture capital. It is very hard to raise venture capital in Canada. Quebec accounts for 90% of the tax credits for labour-sponsored funds, which shows how important labour-sponsored funds are to Quebeckers. Quebec is at the top of the list after the United States and Israel, when we look at OECD countries.

Some 45% of the venture capital invested by private venture capital organizations comes from labour-sponsored funds. A symbiotic relationship between private funds and labour-sponsored funds is what makes the Quebec model work.

Currently, 169,000 jobs are being maintained or were created by labour-sponsored funds in Quebec. Again, 169,000 jobs. In the past 10 years, more than 500,000 jobs have been maintained or created by labour-sponsored funds.

The last thing I want to say about this is that the testimony in committee showed us that getting rid of the tax credit might lead to the loss of 20,000 jobs in Quebec. Is that what the government calls job creation?

Economic Action Plan 2014 Act, No. 1 June 4th, 2014

Mr. Speaker, it is too bad that I only have 10 minutes, but I will resume my speech when this bill is at third reading. We are at report stage now, and I have 10 minutes to summarize my thoughts on this budget bill and on the budget as a whole.

I listened to a number of speeches tonight. Unfortunately, it seemed obvious that many of my Conservative colleagues had not even read the bill. They were asked questions about very specific parts of the bill and they gave us the runaround.

We ask these questions to try to illustrate, once again, that we have a budget bill that is more than 380 pages long and that amends, eliminates or adds some 60 acts in a single bill. At third reading, we will ultimately have to decide, with a single vote, whether we agree with a bill that contains a wide variety of measures.

Let us take a look at that variety. This bill contains clauses that will increase the number of federal judges in Alberta and Quebec courts. The bill amends the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency Act and the Museums Act, it makes changes to demutualization, makes changes related to the Champlain Bridge and makes changes related to measures for veterans, in response to a Supreme court ruling. All that in just one bill. Many of these elements should have been studied separately.

During his speech, my colleague from Victoria said that the most complex aspect of the bill was probably the one pertaining to the House ratifying an intergovernmental agreement with the United States. This is an agreement with the United States, which wants to tax Americans who live in Canada. We are not talking about citizenship. This measure contains elements that could well jeopardize the privacy of our citizens.

To add to what my colleague from Victoria said in his eloquent speech, this will obviously affect Canadians who have dual citizenship, Canadians who have not been to the United States in 20, 25 or 30 years, who no longer consider themselves to be American and who have always paid their taxes in Canada. In the end, they may be forced to pay back-taxes to the United States for the entire period during which they lived full time in Canada.

What is more, their own banks could send their banking information to the Canada Revenue Agency, which will act as an intermediary and relay that information to the American revenue agency, the IRS. These elements are extremely complex. Our constituents talk to us about them regularly, and I am certain that the constituents of Conservative members, the government members, talk to them about it too. These are major concerns. I would like to add that, after the testimony we heard before the Standing Committee on Finance, it is clear that this provision will be challenged in court. Did the government listen to the comments and criticisms about these aspects of the bill? No, it did not. It is going ahead with them.

There is another aspect of this agreement that is very relevant to my riding. Many Canadians have never been American, but they live near the border. That is the case in my riding, which shares a border with Maine. Many people in Témiscouata who do not live close to a Canadian hospital gave birth to their babies in American hospitals. They then returned to Canada. There was a time when that happened quite frequently. Because these individuals were technically born in the United States, they could be considered American, have their file referred to the IRS and eventually be forced to pay taxes in the United States, a country that they have never lived in.

I am not the only one. One of my Conservative colleagues on the Standing Committee on Finance, the member for Tobique—Mactaquac, is in the same situation because his riding also shares a border with Maine. These are extremely complex situations that should have been carefully examined in a separate bill. The government refused to do that.

Now, the government is saying that we have had plenty of time to examine this bill in the House and in the Standing Committee on Finance. This bill is 380 pages long and it amends 60 laws. We did not even have the opportunity to call witnesses to speak about certain parts of the bill because we did not have enough time.

The NDP does its homework. We tried, within the framework imposed on us by the government, to bring in witnesses to talk about as many issues as possible and cover as much material as possible. Despite those efforts, we were not able to properly examine some important parts of the bill.

This is not the first time this has happened. This is the fourth omnibus bill I have seen since I became deputy finance critic. The government would have us believe that it respects the opinion of the House and particularly the opinions of opposition members. We often provide constructive criticism because the opposition's role is not just to oppose, but to point out weaknesses in the bills that the government introduces. One would think that we would be right about something every so often.

After examining four omnibus bills in the Standing Committee on Finance, we still have not managed to get a single amendment passed. It was not until we examined this budget bill that we finally managed to get an amendment through, and even then a Conservative subamendment had to be made to it.

This government is not doing its duty when it comes to the parliamentary work we are responsible for doing as representatives of our ridings, our own little corners of Canada. The government is not demonstrating good governance and is not evaluating every aspect of its bills on the basis of merit. Bill C-31 and what is happening at the Standing Committee on Finance is not an isolated case. It is the general rule.

The Standing Committee on Finance addressed other specific and complex aspects of the bill, and I know that members of the Standing Committee on Transport did the same, just as quickly. The matter of the intergovernmental agreement between Canada and the United States on taxation is complex, but other aspects of the bill are also worth examining.

The matter of the Champlain Bridge, which I just spoke about with one of my Conservative colleagues, is one example. The Conservatives want to impose a toll on the new Champlain Bridge without having conducted appropriate studies on the impact that this would have on access to Montreal or on the other points of entry, such as the Victoria Bridge, the Jacques-Cartier Bridge and the Louis-Hippolyte Lafontaine Bridge–Tunnel. How will these points of entry be affected?

The Champlain Bridge is a major gateway not only for Montreal, but also for Quebec. What would a member from Toronto think if the government decided to patch up the Don Valley Parkway and impose a toll? What impact would that have on Toronto's economy? That is the same situation Montreal is facing.

Once again, the government is not listening, even though it was unable to provide a single witness who supported its proposed toll. The government is not being responsible; it should be working for the common good. I would like to talk about so many elements, but my time is limited. I will talk about demutualization, another complex issue.

Last year there was a case of demutualization, and the Standing Committee on Finance studied this issue. We know about mutual insurance companies in general. However, some of these companies want to demutualize and become share capital companies. One case was reported to the committee at the time.

The mutual company in question had 943 mutual policyholders or subscribers. However, these 943 policyholders were not the only ones who were insured by the mutual company. There were one million insured people. The 943 policyholders in question saw a good opportunity: if the mutual company was privatized and transformed into a share capital company, it could eventually be sold, amalgamated and bought by another company. They would make a tidy profit because the company's capital was assessed at more than $1.3 billion. Thus, every one of the mutual policyholders could make up to $1.3 million. That was clearly an incentive to demutualize, to the detriment of those who had an insurance policy. We tried to clarify this complex situation.

I want to talk about so many other aspects of the bill, including the issue of labour-sponsored funds and the elimination of the tax credit that the government is still planning, which will have adverse effects on job creation. In fact, this could lead to job losses in Quebec, and the government continues to turn a deaf ear.

I have no lessons to learn from this government when it comes to job creation. They are all talk and no action. That is why I will have no problem voting in favour of our amendments and against Bill C-31.