James Lunney

[Kyoto Protocol, December 6th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, with our neighbours and NAFTA partners to the south not signing the Kyoto protocol, with the huge border we share with the United States, and with so much of our industry and development concentrated along the 49th parallel, I wonder if the hon. member shares my concerns.

In British Columbia we have just seen a mill close in Fort Langley and move across the 49th, just south of the border, taking with it 56 jobs. In that community of only 780 people south of the border, they are building a huge electrical generating plant, and I understand there are more on the drawing board.

Does the hon. member share my concern that Kyoto is a great plan for the development of the northern United States at Canada's expense? I wonder if he shares my concern or would care to comment on that.

[Supply, December 5th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, it is good to be debating health care in the House again today. We have heard some interesting discussions this morning.

When I hear some members talking about a private system and other members suggesting that the system will collapse if there is private involvement, have they failed to recognize that 30% of our health care spending already is outside of the public system?

The problem we have with our single public system is that it is inefficient, ineffective and it has no competition.

As an example of that, just recently there was a big article about the cancer care unit in Toronto. The private system comes in during the evening to run the equipment because the cancer unit cannot find people in the public system to work those hours. The private clinic runs the equipment in the evening and is able to treat 1,000 patients for cancer therapy with the same equipment for the same cost that the public system would treat 600.

We are talking about innovation. I wonder if my colleague would expand again on the importance of giving the provinces the opportunity to innovate in health care.

[Criminal Code, December 4th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, regarding the importation of semen from the U.S., I acknowledge what the parliamentary secretary said about the testimony the other day in committee. However, there was testimony given on Bill C-56 from one of the distributors of semen. It acknowledged that indeed it is importing from prisons in the United States.

This was such an issue in 1999 that Health Canada discovered inconsistencies with the Canadian semen banks. An ensuing investigation found most semen banks to be non-compliant with the semen regulations under the Food and Drugs Act. There were missing medical files. Mandatory testing of product safety was not being done. It resulted in a moratorium for a while.

There is no authority to inspect facilities outside our borders. We cannot even control drugs coming in from across the border. For example, Vanessa Young ordered Propulsid over the Internet. It was imported and she died as a consequence.

How can we possibly control the safety of gametes and cellular material coming in if we cannot inspect beyond our borders?

[Criminal Code, December 4th, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, on Friday, November 22 I asked the Minister of Health a question that is of importance to Canadians. I said:

Mr. Speaker, first we had tainted blood imported from U.S. prisons. Now we are importing semen from U.S. prisons to produce Canadian children. The catastrophic fallout from disease spread by tainted blood has created thousands of victims and 20 years later continues to occupy the House and destroy the lives of the victims.

I went on to ask:

With recent deaths from organ transplants that contained the West Nile virus and untold pathogens yet to be identified, why is the Minister of Health establishing agencies to facilitate the international trade in human embryos, human cells and human body components?

The minister's response began:

I am not exactly sure what the hon. member is referring to.

I would like to clarify for Canadians tonight what we are talking about. It is the import and export of human tissue, human cells and human gametes, for example, sperm. I wonder how many Canadians realize that the industry to help people with fertility problems is importing sperm from U.S. prisons to help with reproductive technology. It raises some concerns.

I make reference to the tainted blood scandal. Have we learned anything from importing blood? The tainted blood affair has been considered to be one of the worst public health disasters in Canadian history. About 1,100 Canadians became infected with blood-borne HIV. Between 10,000 and 20,000 others contracted hepatitis C after receiving tainted blood products. The federal government's compensation plan now amounts to something like $1.4 billion in reparations and assistance.

Since 1995 about 3,000 Canadian women every year are inseminated with donor semen. Because of anonymity and the way the department handles this, there is no requirement other than what the department describes as minimum safety requirements respecting donor selection, cell, tissue and organ collection, processing, packaging, testing, labelling, storage, recall of cells, tissues and organs, record keeping and adverse event reporting.

This is a very delicate subject. We are talking about creating a human being and there is no social identity attached to the sperm donation.

The question to raise is, what are we importing when we import human cells? There are viruses. Who knows what other pathogens may be associated with these cells? We have enough trouble containing things within our border.

When asked at committee, Mr. Ouimette, who represented Health Canada, said that we have the ability to check beyond our borders but we have no authority to look beyond our borders. How could we possibly inspect facilities beyond our borders?

In this sensitive area do we not have enough resources among Canadians, the 33 million of us, to provide the biological sources needed within our own borders to have some sense of controlling it? That is the question.

[Kyoto Protocol, December 3rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the intervention. It is a bit of a paradox to see the minister, who represents a riding in Alberta, stand up and try to somehow defend this protocol when her province is at such risk.

Indeed, there is no certainty. The economic certainty for business is already threatened. The IDA chairman told the Prime Minister just the other day that the 190-member association, which represents all major brokerages and the securities arm of all chartered banks, feels that federal friction with the provinces has created a feeling of uncertainty toward the Canadian economy among a large segment of the investment community in the U.S.

Our investments are in jeopardy and our future is in jeopardy, all to pursue an ideological dream that is not based on reality.

[Kyoto Protocol, December 3rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for the question. Burning straw is certainly interesting and we have to wonder where that was coming from. Certainly we are concerned about pollutants and particulate matter in the air and that might be a good way to create a problem in the environment.

The main concern on this side of the House is that Kyoto deals primarily with emissions of CO

2

. If anyone around here is a greenhouse operator, they will know that most greenhouses actually pump extra CO

2

into their greenhouses. It is good for plants. They grow better. CO

2

can hardly be considered a pollutant. We are all respiring CO

2

. A lot of it has been blown around the House today. Maybe we need to open the windows and let some oxygen in to help balance the debate here.

We are concerned that Kyoto does not deal with environmental contamination in general or air pollution in particular. It does not deal with the real pollutants: sulphur dioxide, nitrous oxide and smog itself. The Kyoto plan will not cover countries that are producing two-thirds of the man-made carbon dioxide emissions.

Therefore, global production of CO

2

is unlikely to fall under Kyoto, and as for Canada's little contribution to this whole equation, if we put the brakes on our industry, restrictions on our own emissions and all go back to pedalling bicycles instead of driving cars, do we think that will stop industry from developing south of the border, in the Soviet Union, in China and in other countries that are contributing far more than Canada probably ever will in our entire existence?

It is an ideological pill that our friends opposite are trying to feed us. It is a very nice idea to think that we should somehow protect the planet in this way, but realistically, friends, we want to protect the planet and we want to do what is right. We want to have a made in Canada plan that will invest our money. Rather than sending Canadian dollars out to other countries with worse records and worse controls than we have, we would like to see our money invested here in energy alternatives. We should be advancing the better use of solar energy, wind energy and hydroelectric energy. We have still untapped resources. Surely we can find a way to build dams and tap in on our hydro power and still provide fish ladders. There has to be a way to do that without damaging the environment.

We have tremendous possibilities in this country. We are an energy rich country. Why we would handicap ourselves in this kind of an agreement with the kinds of realities and the cold climate that we are faced with? We need to heat our homes. We have huge transportation costs to deal with, which European countries, where people are huddled together in small communities, do not have. They do not have our transportation costs. Neither does Japan. Japan has public transit. We have huge distances involved and people need transportation. Most of us cannot walk to a grocery store right around the corner.

[Kyoto Protocol, December 3rd, 2002]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member's intervention. He has illustrated the point I was trying to make at the beginning: that there is no consensus among scientists. There is a lot of discussion about what is affecting the planet, and there are a lot of factors affecting the planet. Solar energy changes affect the planet. In the urban environment, people see that their environment has changed. Where I live on Vancouver Island, I have seen changes since I moved there 12 years ago. In my own neighbourhood there is development where there used to be forests. We are seeing changes around us and we want to be concerned about that.

In fact, to say that scientists studying this issue have come to a consensus is simply not the case. There are many factors impacting the environment around us. Surely the point is well taken by the member that there is not agreement at this time. That is why putting ourselves under such an economic harness to try to meet an ideological objective, when the outcomes are certainly anything but obvious or anything but achievable, is a very serious concern that Canadians want to entertain.

[Kyoto Protocol, December 3rd, 2002]

Yes, even him, and I think of the hon. member from Red Deer, who did such a job for us in trying to explain these issues to Canadians. We are very grateful. The member has taken the time to study the issue and he understands this. He has a background in biology, he is an environmentalist and he is concerned. Some people called it a filibuster. It was not a filibuster in a classic sense. It was the member for Red Deer trying to inform Canadians about the important issues related to Kyoto and what it is going to cost us. He has a passion for the issue.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I understand you can hear me. Excuse me if I have raised my voice. It is hard not to get passionate about something that is going to cost Canadians so much for so little gain.

Simon Fraser University energy economist Mark Jaccard calculates that the Canadian economy will suffer a permanent discount in its gross domestic product and a real drop-off of up to 2.5% of the country's annual wealth. A 1998 study conducted in part by the American Farm Bureau Federation concluded that implementing Kyoto would increase expenses. I hope the member from Winnipeg South Centre who spoke, and her constituents and those in farm country in Manitoba, including my brother-in-law, are listening today, because the study showed that implementing Kyoto would increase farm expenses by up to 32%. I wonder how our farmers in Saskatchewan or Alberta, where they are already pressed to the limit, feel about that. The federation estimates it would increase farm expenses by up to 32% and decrease annual farm income by 24% to 48%, diminishing agricultural exports, the net effect being to put many farmers out of business.

As for government costs, what are the cost estimates for the federal government's new plan? The government cost of Kyoto-friendly alternative energy plants, homeowner incentives and foreign pollution rights have not been disclosed. What about the size of the innovation partnership fund? That is not available. The budget for all of the above? Not available until February and beyond. What about corporate penalties for non-compliance on gas emissions? That is not available. As for the impacts on big industry, that may be available in April. If big industry cannot get its act together by 2012, the deadline for implementing Kyoto, it can claim an extension until technology is developed to make gas reductions possible. Constituents in my own riding are very concerned about this. I have had letters. They want to know what the costs will be for the people of Nanaimo--Alberni.

The government wants Canadians to buy fuel efficient vehicles, to use cars less, to reduce idling, to retrofit our older homes, to buy R2000 homes and to replace appliances with more energy efficient models. They want us to abandon the clothes dryer and go back to the clothesline. That may work for some people. My wife likes the clothesline, but it does not work for everybody.

People in B.C., in particular those who live in the riding of Nanaimo--Alberni, are already experiencing the devastating effects of the Canada-U.S. softwood lumber dispute. It is estimated that we have lost 15,000 jobs, many of them in coastal B.C. and certainly in my riding.

I have had people write to me regarding their concerns about Kyoto: Ed and Linda Matt,BrigitteDeleeuw, residents of Parksville, and Jeff Jordanov. Another man from my riding wrote to me wanting to know what the effects would be on the construction industry and how it would impact on him. They all want to know why Canada should commit to an unachievable target that requires us to make payments to countries without targets.

There are many questions about the accord, questions that need to be answered. There is a lot that Canadians want to know about it. There is a lot of consultation that has not been done. We encourage everyone to consider the cost to the government and encourage members not to enter into a plan that will handicap and hamstring Canada without knowing what the costs will be.

[Kyoto Protocol, December 3rd, 2002]

No, Kyoto does not address this. In fact, this is a harbinger of things to come. So much of our industry is already owned or co-owned by American interests. As we saw with the Ford plant in Oakville just recently, when its industry was threatened it just closed a very efficient plant and went south of the border to protect its own industry. If we now create an energy incentive for industry to produce on its side of the border, do we think that industry is not going to be motivated by profit to close down on our side of the border and move south of the 49th? For those who suggest that only Alberta is concerned about this, I hope the people in Ontario are taking a good look at it, because Ontario's industry stands to be struck very hard by the agreement and investment is very likely to pull out of that province as well as British Columbia.

From British Columbia's perspective, we have taken such a hit on the softwood lumber agreement and now we face being saddled with this kind of agreement that has very questionable objectives in regard to it ever doing anything to help the environment. Do we think that air pollution somehow stops at the 49th? Do we think that as development goes to the U.S. side pollution is not going to blow across our border? Is the government proposing a plan to somehow fence it out? Do we think we are somehow isolated from the rest of the global community? When so many of the countries of the world, the big producers, are not signing on to the agreement, it is unlikely that our little contribution is going to make a significant impact.

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation has estimated that Kyoto would cost as much as $2,700 per family. There probably are families that can afford to increase their homes to R2000 and some are probably already there, but I believe that many Canadians are not there. For many Canadians, $2,700 per family is a big chunk of their disposable income.

It would be nice to be able to buy a smaller car. It would be nice if we did not have to drive so far. It would be nice if it were not so cold. It would be nice if we did not have to let our cars warm up before we get into them, like so many of the cabinet ministers do who have their cars idling outside the House on a day like today, and as they will after question period. We see them perking away out there.

[Kyoto Protocol, December 3rd, 2002]

One of my colleagues says no answer and that is really what we are getting.

The only cost mentioned in the latest plan is $1.6 billion which the government has already spent. That is an interesting statistic. A lot of money has been spent on this because we are concerned. We ought to be interested in science and be good stewards of the planet. We ought to be thinking about how we can best develop the resources we need and how we can best live as human communities, protecting the environment by having minimal impact on the environment and making our footprint one that we can live with for generations to come.

If we are to go into something that will have potentially tremendous costs to us, we ought to ensure that it is at least something that will produce a desirable outcome. At this point we do not know what the costs are.

Canadian manufacturers and exporters estimate 450,000 jobs will be lost to Canada with a cost of as much as $40 billion. We already suffer from a challenge in being competitive in this new global environment. How can Canada, by saddling itself to this agreement, ratify it when our biggest trading partner south of the border and our North American trading partners will not ratify it? When 85% of our trade is south of the border, how do we think we can this without impacting on our economy?

Most of our industry is concentrated right along the 49th parallel. One mill has uprooted itself this week from Fort Langley, British Columbia and will move just across the 49th to Sumas, Washington. The CEO said that this will avoid $800,000 a month in softwood lumber duties and will capture other efficiencies. We have to wonder if it has something to do with the new 600 megawatt gas generating plant which is being built south of the 49th at Sumas.

The hon. member sitting next to me represents a riding that will be greatly impacted by that project because the Americans will get the 56 jobs from the Fort Langley mill and they will also get hundreds of jobs in the construction of these plants south of the border. That energy is purported to go down to Seattle and California.

The plant cannot be built in Seattle because it has its own air pollution concerns. Seattle does not want the plant so it is being built on the 49th, next to Canada. Energy will be shipped through Canada so B.C. will have the benefit of hydro lines passing through a populated area which has concerns about electromagnetic radiation from the hydro lines. That energy will go down to the grid south of the border.

Meantime the particulate matter from these new generators will flow into the Fraser Valley. Because of the concentration of population and the way air funnels down that valley, people there will have to deal with the consequences of increased air pollution. This air pollution will be equal to thousands of idling cars every day blowing fumes into the Fraser Valley which is already one of our most challenging areas for air pollution.